Well, actually Dickie-boy…

Written by Jonathan Burt (VinChainSaw)

Posted in :All Blacks, In the news, Springboks, Tri Nations on 7 Jul 2008 at 18:05

… me thinks it’s you lot who got off lightly over the weekend.

You might moan about Brad Thorne only getting a week… we moan about you and your predecessors not getting it right once in ten years!

On that sombre note, news24 reports of the Bok management bemoaning the punsihment meted out to Brad Thorne.

The Springbok management on Monday ripped into the match officials for the Wellington Tri-Nations Test against the All Blacks, which the hosts won 19-8.

The Springboks are unhappy with the way the Brad Thorn spear tackle was handled and also the manner in which the All Blacks were able to illegally manipulate the scrums to their advantage.

The Kiwis’ counter-accusation that the Springboks had targeted their star flyhalf, Dan Carter, with a series of cheap shots was also dismissed with the contempt it deserved.

Referee Stuart Dickinson has admitted he erred in not giving Thorn a card for an off-the-ball, after-the-whistle spear tackle on John Smit that eventually forced the Springbok captain off the field shortly before halftime with a groin injury.

Thorn was, however, cited by the match commissioner and received a one-match ban from Sanzar judicial officer Dennis Wheelahan for “an act contrary to good sportsmanship”.

Andy Marinos, the manager of national teams, said it was “a very interesting ruling” by the judicial officer.

“It caught us by surprise because Thorn admitted to foul play. If you read Law 4(e), it clearly states that if you lift up, dunk or spear a player, then that constitutes a dangerous tackle,” Marinos said on Monday.

“We believe he got off helluva lightly, especially considering that John Smit injured himself in the incident. All we are saying is that there should be consistency in the way these incidents are adjudicated on the field and afterwards, so that there is a level playing field. We don’t think this decision is consistent with the regulations.”

Leave the field due to foul play

Coach Peter de Villiers and vice-captain Victor Matfield were both reluctant to speak out, the pair saying that the matter was more in Marinos’s sphere of influence.

De Villiers did say, however, that he wondered if a Springbok player would have been treated the same, while pointing out that prop CJ van der Linde also had to leave the field due to foul play.

“The thought does occur that if one of our players had done that, would he be treated the same? But we have to move on.

“But CJ was hit in the larynx and that’s why he had to come off. He was sounding like me,” the permanently hoarse coach said.

“John Smit and Brad Thorn had a chat about the incident after the game and we have moved on. How it is handled after that is not up to us,” is all Matfield would say.

The New Zealand media have been critical of what they called persistent late tackles on Carter, singling out opposite number Butch James.

“It is a concern. He got late-tackled three or four times, a lot of tackles off the ball,” All Blacks coach Graham Henry was quoted as saying.

The New Zealand Herald accused the Springboks of “random acts of thuggery” and of being “the bully boys of world rugby”.

One New Zealand reporter tried to raise these issues with De Villiers at Monday’s press conference, but the Springbok coach told him he should go and ask the All Blacks the same question.

More protection for Carter

“There was one incident when Dan Carter was tackled late, but they always seem to want more protection for him. I know dancing is also a contact sport, but rugby is far from dancing. If you want to run with the big dogs then sometimes you have to lift your leg.

“If you had looked carefully at the niggles off the ball then you would go somewhere else to ask about it,” De Villiers said.

De Villiers said the Springbok scrum had been unable to produce the front-foot ball they required for an effective kicking game because the All Blacks were scrumming illegally.

“We don’t want to tell the guys who adjudicate the games how to do their jobs, but the All Blacks used an illegal scrum. They were walking around and their loosehead [Tony Woodcock] was either scrumming in or going straight up.

“The All Blacks were blown up 21 times in their last three tests for that and we thought that had set the bar. We were sure they’d be penalised for it again, but they were allowed to do it.”

De Villiers warned that the Springboks would scrum in the same manner in the Test in Dunedin on Saturday.

“We have to look after ourselves, so we will become illegal too,” he said.


  • I didn’t actually think the tackle was all that bad.

    And it strictly speaking wasn’t a spear as he landed on his back.

    SMit also provoked him by trying to shove his head into the ground.

    On a relaetd issue – foook me but France seems to have been good to Smittie – he’s been relishing the crousants!

  • Comment 1, posted at 07.07.08 19:01:28 by VinChainSaw Reply
    VinChainSawTeam captain
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 1) :

    Smit did that cozz Thorne went in with a elbow on the tackled player (cannot remember who that is)…
    But quite right…Smit retaliated on Thorne who then again retaliated on him…

  • Comment 2, posted at 08.07.08 09:10:21 by Hmmm Reply

    HmmmSuper Rugby player
  • Why you addressing Dickkie though!??!

  • Comment 3, posted at 08.07.08 10:45:26 by Hmmm Reply

    HmmmSuper Rugby player
  • A loosehead scrumming in on a tighthead prevented us from gaining ascendancy in the scrums?????? Ridiculous, I assure you that a strong scrumming tighthead like BJ would have prevented this from happening. Tightheads scrum in to attack the opposing hooker, but a loosehead scrumming in would not help his scrum very much. The problem is CJ is not a very good scrumming tighthead, and Mujati has very little experience and has no idea how to defend against the tricks that a player like Woodcock will throw at you.

    So my point is that the problem with the scrum was not that the All Blacks were scrumming illegally, but rather that our coach refuses to select a solid scrumming tighthead. I have been saying this since he made the squad, and many said no way Mujati would play in the Tri-Nations, but he should not be a Bok, no way, and no how. To take him instead of BJ on tour was a monstrously stupid decision by PdV, and causes me to question his intelligence.

  • Comment 4, posted at 08.07.08 16:11:12 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
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  • DB

    He might have been dropped becos he has signed for an overseas club.

    Maybe PDV wants to rather invest in a player who will definitely be around come 2011.

    Not saying I agree with him… I think BJ is probably the best we have at the moment…

    (are you now happy Robert Otto) :evil:

  • Comment 5, posted at 08.07.08 16:17:09 by wpw Reply
    wpwAssistant coach
  • @wpw (Comment 5) : nah – you need to remove the “probably” first ;)

  • Comment 6, posted at 08.07.08 16:20:56 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
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  • @wpw (Comment 5) : WPW, I call BS on that, CJ has also signed for a foreign club and he is in the squad. So please come up with another excuse for excluding BJ.

  • Comment 7, posted at 08.07.08 16:39:49 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 5) : Also, remember, that Mujati was selected ahead of Jannie, and he is not going anywhere. So give me a reason to take Mujati ahead of Jannie and BJ. Sorry, but PdV has really screwed the pooch with his prop selections, he has gotten them all horribly wrong!

  • Comment 8, posted at 08.07.08 16:41:06 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • I’m afraid that our national coach knows very little about scrumming. Sad isn’t it?

  • Comment 9, posted at 08.07.08 16:41:55 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 9) :

    DB, a broad statement considering PDV years and levels of training as well as the success he has had at age group. ou don’t make an U21 RWC final without knowing something about forward play.

  • Comment 10, posted at 08.07.08 17:02:22 by Ollie Reply

    OllieVodacom Cup player
  • @wpw (Comment 5) :

    But BJ did not even know why he was dropped…would it not be professional to tell a long standing servant of the game in your country that!??!

  • Comment 11, posted at 08.07.08 17:37:53 by Hmmm Reply

    HmmmSuper Rugby player
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 8) : @Dancing Bear (Comment 9) :
    And his forward coach is not helping him much it seems….

  • Comment 12, posted at 08.07.08 17:39:08 by Hmmm Reply

    HmmmSuper Rugby player
  • @Ollie (Comment 10) :

    Hey…DB has played in the front row for many many years…
    If it was me commenting on it that strongly then you could make that statement…but it was not…I can merely say I would not select a prop that goes backwards more than forwards referring to Mujati…

    But DB has the right to that comment…

    And even VC is a step up from U21…so I don’t know about that…
    Test rugby is a dif ball game and you need to know a lot more than what you applied in U21 rugby to make it work…

  • Comment 13, posted at 08.07.08 17:42:21 by Hmmm Reply

    HmmmSuper Rugby player
  • A vast majority of what I learned about scrumming came at the senior level. When I look back at playing in school and through university, I thought I was a good hooker, but now I realize how little I knew at that time. The only reason I was somewhat successful was because I was a strong kid for my age. If I knew then what I know now about forward play, but that is experience. This is why props do not reach their prime until much later in their careers than other players. Also, since the opposition at the younger age groups are less experienced, they do not know the tricks of the trade, so there is no reason to learn how to counter those tricks, as the front row players age, they learn these tricks and counters.

    So that being said, just because he was a successful coach at age group level does not mean he knows much about scrumming at all. Notice I said scrumming and not general forward play.

    And yes, hmmm I am afraid you are right, he is getting little help from his forwards coach. By the way, why don’t we have a defensive coach, isn’t just having a forwards and backline coach a little outdated, I thought teams were working with attack and defense coaches as well as the backline and forwards skill coaches. I see backline coaches and forwards coaches as skills coaches, whereas defensive and attack coaches are more strategy coaches. I think an international team needs both.

  • Comment 14, posted at 08.07.08 17:56:07 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Hmmm (Comment 13) :

    Hmmm, having played in the position doesn’t mean that you have knowledge on the knowledge of another person.

  • Comment 15, posted at 08.07.08 20:31:55 by Ollie Reply

    OllieVodacom Cup player
  • @Ollie (Comment 15) :
    Have to agree, very silly comment there Hmmm.

    I’m a big fan of BJ and for years considered him the best TH in SA, but we must remember that CJ dealt very adequately with Sheridan last year – the lad isn’t a powder-puff.

    He definitely got monstered on Saturday, but its not cos he cant scrum.

  • Comment 16, posted at 08.07.08 21:56:56 by Big Fish Reply
    Big FishAssistant coach
  • Posted on Voldy…

    The match 22 will be confirmed on Thursday, but the starting XV won’t differ from: Montgomery, Pietersen, Jacobs, De Villiers, Habana, James, Januarie, Van Niekerk, Smith, Burger, Matfield (capt), Botha, Van der Linde, Du Plessis and Steenkamp.

  • Comment 17, posted at 09.07.08 12:23:28 by Charlie Reply

    CharlieSuper Rugby player
  • DB

    Toks VD Linde thinks our scrum problems has more to do with the lack of support from the flankers than the props being poor against the AB’s last week.

    What is your take on this?

  • Comment 18, posted at 09.07.08 12:46:06 by wpw Reply
    wpwAssistant coach
  • @wpw (Comment 18) :
    Did you watch Superrugby. I watched most of it and thought Toks added plenty to the show. Yes he was very clear that the locks and flanks have a huge role to play in the scrums and that they were not doing this last Saturday.

  • Comment 19, posted at 09.07.08 13:12:00 by Salmonoid Reply
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  • I did watch it Salmonoid.

    I think the guys raised some very good points.

    Ricki also came in for some criticism from a caller and Joost actually defended Januarie.

  • Comment 20, posted at 09.07.08 14:08:44 by wpw Reply
    wpwAssistant coach
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 14) :

    I donno DB…I think SA Rugby and PdV came to an agreement that if they are going to pay the salary he wants he can only have two assistant coaches…LoL

  • Comment 21, posted at 09.07.08 14:18:30 by Hmmm Reply

    HmmmSuper Rugby player
  • @Big Fish (Comment 16) :

    Nope…DB has the right to his opinion…he has the experience and knowledge of the play…
    So not such a silly comment…
    And DB was talking of Mujati that should not be a Bok…not CJ…
    CJ has never been a great scrummeger…but his versatility and general play works to his advantage….and I don’t need to be an expert to know that much…

  • Comment 22, posted at 09.07.08 14:21:23 by Hmmm Reply

    HmmmSuper Rugby player
  • Hmmm

    Are you on drugs boet???

  • Comment 23, posted at 09.07.08 14:25:10 by wpw Reply
    wpwAssistant coach
  • @wpw (Comment 23) :

    Yeh…why you ask?

  • Comment 24, posted at 09.07.08 14:44:46 by Hmmm Reply

    HmmmSuper Rugby player
  • Clearly if a team is to select 3 props in the match day 22, then at least one of those props MUST be able to scrum on both sided fairly effectively, and CJ fits in this category very well. Although Mujati has scrummed at loosehead, he can not scrum at either tighthead or loosehead fairly effectively and therefore should not be a Bok, but CJ most certainly deserves to be a Bok. I know I am going to catch flak for this, but the second best prop in SA that can play both sides of the scrum is Deon Carstens.

  • Comment 25, posted at 09.07.08 17:50:10 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 18) : Wes, I only watched the game once, and have not watched it again, I will do that and look more closely at the work of the second row and flankers and see how much of an issue it might have been.

    That being said, I originally started my comment talking about PdVs comment that Woodcock was scrumming illegally by scrumming in. My point was that any tighthead prop that is halfway decent can counter a loosehead scrumming in, it is much more difficult for a loosehead to counter a tighthead scrumming in. As a tighthead, if a loosehead tried to scrum in on me, his neck would be so sore after that scrum he would not try it again. That has nothing to do with the second row or flank, but has to do with the tighthead prop not being able to counter the loosehead prop, and that comes from experience. I assure you that he would not have gotten away with scrumming in on BJ.

  • Comment 26, posted at 09.07.08 17:54:08 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • “Dowd has joined a group of experts (including Gary Teichmann and Robbie Kempson) who disregarded De Villiers’s rant that the All Blacks’ front row used “illegal” tactics in the scrums in Wellington. Dowd dismissed the claims of underhanded scrum tactics, saying De Villiers knows nothing about the front row.”

    My my, so I am not the only person who has played in the front row that thinks PdV knows nothing about the front row. So Wes, what do you have to say about this?

  • Comment 27, posted at 09.07.08 19:21:57 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 27) : Wes is too busy stirring on Keo :-)

  • Comment 28, posted at 09.07.08 19:39:17 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
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  • @robdylan (Comment 28) : I know, it is just funny because Wes is always using what other international players to rubbish those of us that might not agree with him, so here are some comments from former international players and two front rowers to agree with us and disagree with him. It’s all good though, because even though I might not always agree with Wes, he is a good guy, and I enjoy reading what he has to say.

  • Comment 29, posted at 09.07.08 19:50:20 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • Hey Rob, do you know what playing credentials the current Bok forwards coach has?

  • Comment 30, posted at 09.07.08 19:52:23 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 29) : He’s built like a frontranker anyway :-)

  • Comment 31, posted at 09.07.08 19:53:15 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 31) : Wes the Tank???? :lol:

  • Comment 32, posted at 09.07.08 19:53:54 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 32) : That’s the one :-) Loves a pie, that one

  • Comment 33, posted at 09.07.08 19:55:26 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
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  • @robdylan (Comment 33) : hehehe, any information on Gold’s playing credentials Rob? Caps, positions, etc.

  • Comment 34, posted at 09.07.08 19:59:08 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 34) : I’ll see what I can dig up tomorrow

  • Comment 35, posted at 09.07.08 20:16:33 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
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  • @robdylan (Comment 35) : Thanks, he was generally considered a very adept coach when in the premiership with London Irish, considered a student of the game and a very technical analyst. Just wondering if his depth of knowledge actually extends to the front row or not. Perhaps the Boks need to hire an old prop (ala Balie Swart) to assist with the front row coaching duties. I wonder how much of a coaching/teaching role Os took up in the Bok camp last year, he has more experience than almost any prop worldwide, and I am sure knows more tricks and counters than just about anyone else. The question is whether he is able to impart his wisdom onto the younger props in the team.

  • Comment 36, posted at 09.07.08 20:21:27 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 25) :

    Smit was also able to fill a prop position.

  • Comment 37, posted at 09.07.08 21:01:17 by Ollie Reply

    OllieVodacom Cup player
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 36) : Bok front row…ideally…BJ,John,Deon,
    but injuries r a problem!

  • Comment 38, posted at 09.07.08 22:19:47 by Me2 Reply

    Me2 aka Mama SharkCurrie Cup player
  • Sorry Rob only just seen your request in asking my Uncle to write an article on scrumming. He is BC (before computers) my folks write letters to him not e-mail. So it will not happen. I played tighthead for almost 18 years, and unfortunately the rules have changed scrumming wise. In my day the TH would try to twist and buckle the loosehead and the LH would endevour to pop the tighthead out the scrum. I was selected to play for N/Natal in a Lion Cup game against Lowveld as a Loosehead. I am 5’10″ and the tighthead apposing me was over 6″ and did I have a Field day I scrummed almost the whole game looking at my apponents feet until they replaced him with a flank so we had to have uncontested scrums after that. Now days its illegal to bend somebody below the waist, hence the reason the Props have got taller and taller. So now if your TH is taller than their LH all he will do is Prop straight, he needs to bind properly and twist his opponent inwards forcing his backside out so his lock doesn’t have anybody to push against. I also couldn’t see anything wrong with the AB’s scrumming, but felt the Boks were Poor. Just a year ago the AB’s were accusing BJ of scrumming illegaly, so maybe the shoe is on the other foot this year.

  • Comment 39, posted at 09.07.08 23:22:59 by Dynamite Reply

    DynamiteVodacom Cup player
  • @Ollie (Comment 37) : Sorry Ollie, but Smit has never been successful when asked to fill in as prop. He is a superb hooker, but other than simply holding his own, he is not a good prop, especially at the international level.

    @Me2 (Comment 38) : I am a huge fan of Deon Carstens, but right now I still feel he is second best to CJ as far as props that can play both sides. My opinion is that either CJ or Deon should start on the bench with BJ and Beast starting. Possible change is CJ or Deon at loosehead and Beast on the bench. Ideally though, I still think Heinke is the best loosehead scrummager in the country, but leaves something to desire in other facets of play. Perhaps him starting at looshead with someone like CJ or Deon on the bench. A front row of BJ, John and Heinke would destroy pretty much any front row out there, and either CJ or Deon could run them ragged in the second half.

  • Comment 40, posted at 10.07.08 16:24:27 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
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  • Hey DB… you need to let Rob give your email address…

  • Comment 41, posted at 10.07.08 16:39:45 by wpw Reply
    wpwAssistant coach
  • @wpw (Comment 41) : huh? I have DB’s email address, nitwit…

  • Comment 42, posted at 10.07.08 16:40:59 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
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  • loves pies Rob…

    Jou ma …. :evil: :evil:

  • Comment 43, posted at 10.07.08 16:42:34 by wpw Reply
    wpwAssistant coach
  • @wpw (Comment 41) : Rob has it Wes, and I have no problem with him giving it to you.

  • Comment 44, posted at 10.07.08 16:44:03 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • Thanks DB.

    Need to leave though… will email you tomorrow…


    Move your ass with that email!!! :mrgreen:

  • Comment 45, posted at 10.07.08 16:51:57 by wpw Reply
    wpwAssistant coach
  • @wpw (Comment 45) : it’s already sent, pal!

  • Comment 46, posted at 10.07.08 16:53:36 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
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  • @wpw (Comment 45) : Looking forward to hearing from you Wes. Good discussions coming I am sure.

  • Comment 47, posted at 10.07.08 16:56:31 by Dancing Bear Reply
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