KSA Shark ©

Super Rugby Safe – S15 agreed to


Written by Andre Bosch (KSA Shark ©)

Posted in :In the news, Super 14 on 15 May 2009 at 07:21
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We now have an expanded Super 15 rugby competition after the three Sanzar nations finally reached a compromise around the boardroom table in Dublin today, though the champagne corks were not exactly being popped by any of the protagonists.

NZRU boss Steve Tew gave a distinctly guarded thumbs-up to the solution reached between the New Zealand, Australia and South Africa partners who make up the Sanzar collective over the future of Super rugby. This follows a prolonged impasse, where major sticking points had emerged over each country’s vision for the future.

Marc Hinton writes for Rugbyheaven NZ that at one stage New Zealand and Australia had even threatened to go it alone in an Asia-Pacific competition, prompting South Africa to respond with a threat to look to align with the northern hemisphere.

Finally some common ground has been found and a “delighted” Tew said that would now be taken to the broadcasting partner by the June 30 deadline. He added that “all the boxes had been ticked” in terms of key detail, such as revenue proportions and time-frame.

However, we will have to wait until next week for details of the new competition for 2011 and beyond as all three nations go back to their stakeholders with that information before releasing it publicly.

But be assured it will be a Super 15, it will feature an expanded conference-based format and it will offer significantly more product to the broadcasters for whom the competition is being tailored.

Asked by Fairfax Media about which nation had had to make the compromises to get the new competition over the line, Tew made it clear that no one was exactly dancing a jig following the Dublin pow-wow.

“Everyone had to make some compromises,” said Tew. “It’s fair to say we’re all satisfied. No one is overly joyed and no one is bitterly disappointed, which when you try to get three parties to agree to something as complex as this is probably the right result.”

Tew would not confirm that the new competition will be the Super 15 that has been broadly outlined in discussions prior to this meeting, but effectively rubber-stamped that aspect of the agreement.

“I think you can plan reasonably confidently that will be part of the detail, but I’d rather not go much further than that at this stage,” he said.

The NZRU chief executive also indicated that perhaps it had been the South Africans who had to make the most significant shifts in terms of their preferred model, when he explained the way forward from here.

“All three parties were pretty keen to get home and give our shareholders a little bit of insight into what’s been agreed before we went public. That’s particularly important for the South Africans so we’ve agreed to that.”

Timing has been a particular sticking point prior to today’s meeting. South Africa had wanted to retain a February kickoff to the expanded competition, while New Zealand and Australia were adamant a March start was the earliest they would agree to.

New Zealand and Australia are hoping to move away from the summer sports overlap in February and also see the benefits in giving international players a longer break between seasons. On the other hand, the South Africans are reluctant for the new competition to impinge on their provincial Currie Cup which starts in July.

Further complicating matters is the June IRB-enforced test window.

In terms of the 15th team, the sticking point heading into today’s discussions had been over whether Australia or South Africa should get the new franchise. Though, given the desire to establish three distinct conferences with more “local” matches, it was hard to see how a sixth South African side could fit in with that.

Tew denied the Sanzar relationship had been damaged by the at-times bitter and public nature of the negotiations, with the Australians in particularly airing many of their concerns through the media.

“We have a very deep and very long relationship with both countries and I’m confident our relationship with both is in very good shape,” said Tew.

He added that it was not unusual for three parties with such different interests and drivers to go through robust debate in a process like this. “It’s a pity that it’s been played out in the media to the extent it has been, but that’s just the way it’s been. We haven’t played that game ourselves.”

The Kiwi boss also assured the New Zealand rugby public that their best interests had been served, though he conceded there was a qualifier.

“You do have to make some compromise to get the bigger picture ticked off. Certainly our view was to remain in a three-way venture with Australia and South Africa was in the best interests of New Zealand rugby. All the information we’ve been getting from the broadcast environment, sponsors, and market research steered us down that line.”

The successful Tri-Nations competition had not thrown up “too many issues” though Tew said there had been a further meeting with representatives from Argentina with a view to their eventual inclusion.

It’s fair to say that things are not exactly rocketing along in that area.

“That remains a work in progress and it’s still to be determined whether we can fit Argentina into a Four-Nations and add some value. But we haven’t dismissed it either,” said Tew.

“They still have quite a bit to do, and they need to go away and do it and do it pretty quickly, frankly.”

But overall Tew felt it was a significant day for southern hemisphere rugby.

“We’re very pleased,” he said. “We needed some certainty, we needed to get work done now on detail so we can be in front of the broadcasters as per our contracted timetable.

“We can now take this information forward into our discussions with the Air NZ Cup unions next week and with a little bit of luck and a following wind we might be able to nail that quite quickly too.

“Then we will have real certainty about our competitions.”

Loose-lipped Australian chief John O’Neill for once stayed silent on detail as well, but did say he was happy with the outcome.

“ARU said from the outset its first priority was to expand the Super rugby competition in conjunction with our Sanzar partners New Zealand and South Africa,” O’Neill said.

“After what has been a long and at times robust process, that ambition has now been realised. We are excited about the future as SANZAR prepares to present to broadcasters by the end of next month.”



64 Comments

  • the end of Super Rugby as we know it

  • Comment 1, posted at 15.05.09 07:38:15 by robdylan Reply
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  • i for one don’t want more local derbies. That’s what the Currie Cup is for

  • Comment 2, posted at 15.05.09 07:39:12 by robdylan Reply
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  • Okay – so how’s this gonna work now?? 5 teams per country?

  • Comment 3, posted at 15.05.09 07:45:37 by Prof. Ice Reply
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  • ……be assured it will be a Super 15, it will feature an expanded conference-based format……also indicated that perhaps it had been the South Africans who had to make the most significant shifts in terms of their preferred model……

    I am worried that SARU have given NZAR exactly what they wanted. :cry:

  • Comment 4, posted at 15.05.09 07:46:53 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @robdylan (Comment 2) :

    Bring on the Derbies! :twisted:

    Mr Tew- only hOOterbek O’NeiLL made a media circus out of it.

    If I read the arti coRRectly the starting date wiLL be in March- but the tourney wiLL stiLL finish in May.

    I believe it wiLL be 5 teams per participating nation.

    That means the Kings wiLL play.

    SARU needs to come out strong now on the farce caLLed regional teams- and the “enschrined” right of “some” SA teams to play Super rugby.

  • Comment 5, posted at 15.05.09 07:52:02 by wiLLem Reply

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  • @wiLLem (Comment 5) :

    If it starts in March and finishes in May then it can only mean that the top teams (2 or 3) from each conference will go through to play the top teams from the other conferences.

    Maybe then a seperate 2nd round for the lower teams in the conferences.

    BUT that then means we will have a system where everyone does not play everyone else. We KNOW how vital that is to the outcome of the competition. Look at the Sharks as a perfect example of this. The two lowest teams on the Log beat us. In a conference system we will not meet the Reds. Crusaders will not meet the Reds or the Cheetahs. So no more of the “upsets” that each season throws up. :evil: :evil:

    Those upsets, as much as we hate them, are what MAKES this competition

  • Comment 6, posted at 15.05.09 07:58:27 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • I don’t get this.

    The Southern Kings are planning ahead for their future participation in Super Rugby and yet we are not sure if SA will get the extra team.

  • Comment 7, posted at 15.05.09 08:11:46 by wpw Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 7) :

    They will get a gap if we get rid of useless teams…like Stormers etc… :twisted:

  • Comment 8, posted at 15.05.09 08:26:46 by blackshark Reply

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  • @wpw (Comment 7) :

    What don’t you get?

    Either we get the extra team and things stay the same as they are, or we don’t get the extra team and one of the current SA teams drops away.

    I think Aus will get the team though.

    How that (who drops out) will be decided is not public knowledge yet.

  • Comment 9, posted at 15.05.09 08:27:20 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • if there are conferences then why have a team limit. let sa have six teams. nz as many as they want and aus the same. these conference tournies are qualifiers and sa and call theirs the cc. so we don’t lose the cc and we have our boks in it. it is a win win. also bring japan and arg in. they get their top team in the comp and sa oz and nz get their top two. the remainder of the teams left in each country get to play out for a shield. so we have a super 8 and a sheild going on at the same time in sa. it also opens up time for test tours. this will also cut the number of games played each year saving our players.

  • Comment 10, posted at 15.05.09 08:28:49 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @wiLLem (Comment 5) :
    “I believe it wiLL be 5 teams per participating nation.

    That means the Kings wiLL play.”

    :?: We already have 5, do you see a promotion / relegation scenario with the lowest finishing team automatically dropping out.

  • Comment 11, posted at 15.05.09 08:29:45 by Salmonoid Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 9) :

    I am so looking forward to another ‘Spears’ debacle… NOT :???:

  • Comment 12, posted at 15.05.09 08:32:58 by wpw Reply
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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 10) :

    becasue it will make the season even LONGER than it already is.

  • Comment 13, posted at 15.05.09 08:33:48 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • The shit is gonna fly if we learn that Marinos held out for this long and turned and bent over at the last hurdle!

  • Comment 14, posted at 15.05.09 08:35:19 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 13) :

    Not if the CC and Super 14 regional is ONE TOURNAMENT…

  • Comment 15, posted at 15.05.09 08:36:54 by blackshark Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 13) :

    Plu why would you want to send an SA team into a tournament where they have played two more games than everyone else if they happen to make the play-offs?

  • Comment 16, posted at 15.05.09 08:38:24 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 13) : no it won’t. march to may each of the 4 nations play (japan can play theirs over december if they want)their local comps to decide who goes into the super 8. so sa has its cc then with its six teams. when these are over, the june test window hits and these get put out the way. tri nations included. we get back late july and the super 8 starts. ends in october as per normal. obviously special laws will be made to make sure that players from losing conference teams aren’t added to the top teams for the super 8.

  • Comment 17, posted at 15.05.09 08:40:43 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @blackshark (Comment 15) : thats what i said.

  • Comment 18, posted at 15.05.09 08:41:07 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • it will also make cc more exciting, cos the teams have more to play for and they have their boks.

  • Comment 19, posted at 15.05.09 08:41:52 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @blackshark (Comment 15) :

    So how will that work in practical terms then? One round of CC with all the S14 players and then when they go off to play in the rest of the tournament against the NZAR teams, we have the remaining players playing the 2nd round of the CC at a Vodacom Cup level becasue all the S14 players are out of the country.

  • Comment 20, posted at 15.05.09 08:42:22 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 16) : there is a break in between.

  • Comment 21, posted at 15.05.09 08:46:25 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @Salmonoid (Comment 11) :

    Salmie

    There is no “justice” in life.

    Melbourne should get spot 15- its just coMMon sense.

    Kings will play in 2011, in spot 14- due to “political i$$ues”.

    if political i$$ues dictates rugby- eg regions

    then BuLLS & Lions should be one S14 franchise- ea Gauteng Giants- and aLL its a$$ociated I$$ues.

    If only rugby i$$ues were to be taken into consideration – why would the wOOdenspOOners of 2009 “only” be taken as the faLLguys?

    Whatever solution SARU adopts- they nEEd to think carefuLLy about the political and rugby i$$ues, past 2012.

    and then set in place a workable solution- that is coMMunicated properly AND wiLL be stuck to- so that player contracts can be adjusted aCCordingly.

    Maybe the conference iSSUe will ensure the 6 super- regional teams to detremine which three/four teams go into the next phase

    With that I have no iSSue!

  • Comment 22, posted at 15.05.09 08:50:20 by wiLLem Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 20) : no we get to give the smaller unions a shot. so they play the vc without the two top teams. it will also make the vc more exciting.

  • Comment 23, posted at 15.05.09 08:50:29 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • Unless you are both (Blackshark, TT) advocating that we DON’T play a conference and use the CC as the qualifier not only for the S15 but for the second round of the conference system.

    that is just uttek BS IMO. So all you are doing is Either.
    1) “calling” the S14 local conference the CC
    or
    2) or if it IS the CC then you are doing waya with the SA conference.

  • Comment 24, posted at 15.05.09 08:52:36 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • how about we stop speculating, and wait for the outcome

  • Comment 25, posted at 15.05.09 08:55:08 by JarsonX Reply
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  • currently the s14 links clubs together. bulls take valke players, free state takes griquas etc. so once the s14 part of the cc is over. the remaining four teams break up into their seperate unions. this can only benbefit sa rugby. we get our top teams playing eachother for half the year and then while the big boys are overseas we give our youngstters a chance to put up their hand for the next season. how many players are we losing at the moment due to limited space in the top teams.

  • Comment 26, posted at 15.05.09 08:56:42 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 23) :

    No it won’t unless you have changed your mind after comment # 10. In 10 you say the Shield and S8 should be played at the same time, So if that happens then the VC will be unchanged from now and still give them exactly the same chance.

    Do yourself a favour and sit down and do a practical exercise listing the games and the level of player available for those games and you will see none of these combines/overlapping scenarios work, unless you consider using weakened TOp teams in certain comps.

  • Comment 27, posted at 15.05.09 08:58:08 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • none of this makes sense. It worked fine as the Super 12. Don’t fix what ain’t broke to begin with

  • Comment 28, posted at 15.05.09 08:58:32 by robdylan Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 24) : thats basically what the conference is. a mini cc tournament. it will actually be better than the cc because of the quality of the teams. so i don’t see your issue.

  • Comment 29, posted at 15.05.09 08:59:33 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 23) :

    Further that doesn’t give the smaller teams a shot at ALL.

    Top two teams out, Let’s say Stormers and Bulls. So then the Sharks, Cheetahs and Lions play in the VC with full strength sides. Smaller sides are only going to be given a chance to have their arses kicked, nothing else.

  • Comment 30, posted at 15.05.09 09:00:06 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 27) : yes it will. the shield/vc basically amongst the teams left behind. so it will have boks playing in it giving it merit and you are giving your youngsters a shout, while the s8 is on.

  • Comment 31, posted at 15.05.09 09:01:00 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 6) :

    AgrEE fuLLy KSA

    In the end the powers that be must think carefuLLy about what they want- because if they get it wrong – Superrugby would continue to be a downward spiraLLing event for the fans.

    In the end it wiLL only be the suPPorters left- andthere are tOO few of us – to make the muNNysum working.

    Supersport also nEEds to say – who many decoders wiLL we lOOse – where when we suPPort this team going down or that team going down.

    In the end I believe we wiLL get a brokered solution- so gOOde luck to aLL the spiNNingokes wiFF their “[email protected]” me$$age!

    a two year break might even be gOOde- focus on the CC

    rectify the known on field – iSSue -

    Super rugby- or rather the lack of it wont stop the conveyor belt

    Non ChEEtah particpation wiLL just enhance the aNNual player drain.

    BUt there are some seriously gOOde okies coming through the ranks.

    Bring on 2010, 2011

    I am lOOking for an OranjeOktober again!

  • Comment 32, posted at 15.05.09 09:01:12 by wiLLem Reply

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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 29) :

    yes i agree but nobody is suggesting that the confrence becomes or replaces the CC.

    if it replaces the CC, SA Fans will be up in arm. If the CC is used as the conference then the NZAR will be up in arms becasue our players will be MUCH fresher than theirs.

    @JarsonX (Comment 25) : I agree.

  • Comment 33, posted at 15.05.09 09:03:32 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 30) : stormers will give the boland and eagles players back. kings will give border and ep players back. lions valke, bulls pumas, freestate griquas etc. players have to sign up to unions. these unions create franchises for the cc/confetrence. sa rugby police it so that the bigger unions don’t bully the smaller.

  • Comment 34, posted at 15.05.09 09:04:07 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • CC wiLL stay as it is

    instead- it wiLL rather GROW in STATURE

    Expect the SA Season March to June to be seriously revamped

    coz that is the “not working part”- from a broadcaster perspective!

    Always foLLow the muNNy!

    no nEEd to pay lipservice the whole time though!

  • Comment 35, posted at 15.05.09 09:04:30 by wiLLem Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 33) : who cares what the kiwis and aussies think. as long as we don’t load our top two teams with top players after the cc, how we got them to the s8 is none of their business.

  • Comment 36, posted at 15.05.09 09:06:32 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • Non ChEEtah particpation wiLL just enhance the aNNual player drain.

    BUt there are some seriously gOOde okies coming through the ranks.

    That is exactly what the smaller unions experience, If Boland kept their young players they’d be a major force, if the EC could keep their players they would also be a major force.

    If it does happen the Cheetahs will simply be in a situation of the shoe being on the same foot as the smaller unions though.

  • Comment 37, posted at 15.05.09 09:07:41 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 34) : this will also get money to the struggling unions as they will be guarenteed a share.

  • Comment 38, posted at 15.05.09 09:08:06 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 36) : :lol: :???: :lol:

    Not exactly what the S12/14/15 is all bout now is it. :sad:

  • Comment 39, posted at 15.05.09 09:09:07 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • i think the only thing SA has given into is an extra team and maybe the time frame, i dont think the CC will suffer, and im sure all will not be lost

  • Comment 40, posted at 15.05.09 09:09:32 by JarsonX Reply
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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 34) :

    try time

    SA rugby nEEds just two things

    proper relegation

    transfer fEEs

    Eish

    It wiLL be OranjeOktobers aLL tOO Often for the bigteam$$uPPorters!

  • Comment 41, posted at 15.05.09 09:09:59 by wiLLem Reply

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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 34) :

    How many players do you actually think there are from the smaller unions in the S14 teams?????

    I don’t think you could make one extra team if you took players from the S14 teams who didn’t play for them in the CC.

  • Comment 42, posted at 15.05.09 09:11:34 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 39) : remember i am now calling it the s8. the conference part shouldn’t be part of the super comp. it must be worked to suit each countries needs. nz sa arg oz and japan only get to complain on the s8 part.

  • Comment 43, posted at 15.05.09 09:12:23 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • The “BIG Unions” stiLL have tOO su$$ out that “player constipation” can also be reason why they are not performing- at least a cyclical reason.

    Instead some Union have the “lets lOOk into the pantry” aPProach and then stock up- throwing muNNy at players/agents.

    Some Unions do get it right- as so elequently (eish) speLLed out by RoBBiedEE in his arti on his close to the heart buLLs team!

  • Comment 44, posted at 15.05.09 09:14:37 by wiLLem Reply

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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 43) :

    And here was me thinking we were trying to discuss the current comp, not come up with our own version. :???:

    Sorry my mistake. :lol:

  • Comment 45, posted at 15.05.09 09:16:19 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 42) : that is exactly why i want the system i am proposing. i want to get funds to the smaller unions so they can compete. so they can contract bigger names. it will also be in the bigger unions best interest as in the shield section they get to trial their backup players. guys like strauss burden pat will get much needed quality game time. currently we don’t get our backup players enough quality game time to make the leap into super rugby less daunting.

  • Comment 46, posted at 15.05.09 09:16:21 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 43) :

    I understand your point and its valid

    but everyone must be sEEn to participate in the “Super” competition

    Therefore aLL superparticipation are indEEd a SANZAR iSSue.

    hOOterbekO’NeiLL should just chiLL on the ZA Specifics.

  • Comment 47, posted at 15.05.09 09:17:26 by wiLLem Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 45) : we need to use this to sort out our ailing system. if we are going to get screwed in this new agreement, lets look at ways to improve our quality pool. lets make it work for us.

  • Comment 48, posted at 15.05.09 09:17:50 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @ksa shark, delete this post Quickly :razz:

  • Comment 49, posted at 15.05.09 09:18:46 by JarsonX Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 45) : we can’t really discuss the current version, cos it hasn’t been released yet. so i am throwing ideas out until we get the sad new plans.

  • Comment 50, posted at 15.05.09 09:19:43 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @JarsonX (Comment 49) : :?:

  • Comment 51, posted at 15.05.09 09:22:36 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 36) : @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 43) :

    That’s the version I’m supporting… sort of like a RUGBY- Champions League…

    But we all know it’s never gonna happen…always nice to dream in the morning…

  • Comment 52, posted at 15.05.09 09:22:40 by blackshark Reply

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  • @wiLLem (Comment 22) :
    You are way to hard on yor team. It would be grossly unfair on your team to make them sit out the 2011 tournament on their 2009 results. That just wont rub.
    As you later say clear heads are going to be needed by SARU when deciding who the participating teams are going to be. I see a big bun fight on the horizon.

  • Comment 53, posted at 15.05.09 09:25:08 by Salmonoid Reply
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  • @blackshark (Comment 52) :

    that dreaming is mainly the reason why people are bloGGing!

  • Comment 54, posted at 15.05.09 09:25:39 by wiLLem Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 51) : just an :idea: :oops: :wink:

  • Comment 55, posted at 15.05.09 09:26:49 by JarsonX Reply
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  • @wiLLem (Comment 47) : but they will participate. they have to supply the required teams for the super tournie. and as long as they don’t buy players from other teams during the test season, all rules have been met.

    how many non important derbies do we watch of the other countries? reds force. highlanders, blues etc. time zones have meant we watch the big games and the prime time games. so cut the crap games out with the conference system. and oinly the locals and rugby crazed foreigners will watch those derbies. saffers will watch all their conference games as they do the cc. and so it will be in all the other nations. when s8 comes around locals will watch both s8 and the shield cos they want the show that is super rugby and they will want to watch their home team play. how many games of vc rugby you watch this year? this is my point. super 14 was to big to get time to watch our future stars play.

  • Comment 56, posted at 15.05.09 09:30:29 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

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  • @JarsonX (Comment 55) :

    WHICH comment where you refering to though? :smile:

  • Comment 57, posted at 15.05.09 09:31:55 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @JarsonX (Comment 55) : @KSA Shark © (Comment 57) :

    I want whatever JarsonX was smoking… :lol:

  • Comment 58, posted at 15.05.09 09:34:53 by blackshark Reply

    blackshark - I'm back!Super Rugby player
     
  • @Salmonoid (Comment 53) :

    No They stiLL dished up seven games of Shyte!

    :smile: @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 56) :

    ther eis nothing in that post that I disagrEE with.

  • Comment 59, posted at 15.05.09 09:36:28 by wiLLem Reply

    wiLLemVodacom Cup player
     
  • the entire post not a comment, was just joking tho :grin:

  • Comment 60, posted at 15.05.09 09:42:33 by JarsonX Reply
    Competition WinnerCompetition WinnerCompetition Winner
    JarsonXAssistant coach
     
  • @wiLLem (Comment 59) : i know i was using it to expand on my idea. :lol:

  • Comment 61, posted at 15.05.09 09:43:29 by try time (history forgets losers) Reply

    Super Rugby player
     
  • @JarsonX (Comment 60) : :lol:

    Oh OKAY :lol: :lol: :lol:

  • Comment 62, posted at 15.05.09 09:45:39 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @try time (history forgets losers) (Comment 61) :

    scwEEt

    Then I hope that you have more “expansion” suCCe$$ than SARU!

  • Comment 63, posted at 15.05.09 09:46:37 by wiLLem Reply

    wiLLemVodacom Cup player
     
  • @wpw (Comment 12) : :mrgreen:

  • Comment 64, posted at 15.05.09 10:01:20 by klempie Reply

    klempieTeam captain
     

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