Morné

The Power of One


Written by Morné Nortier (Morné)

Posted in :Original Content on 5 Oct 2009 at 07:53

Is success in rugby defined by an individual or by a collective team effort?

I know it is almost impossible to define so I won’t try and give you an answer to that question, but I am going to try and explore which is more important.

Throughout Peter de Villiers’ tenure when people tried to play down his achievements I insisted that better Bok teams lost against worse New Zealand and Australian teams in the past, and I stick by that.

During the week Zelim Nel from the Cape Argus wrote a column many De Villiers supporters did or will not enjoy, basically asking and telling us to put his record into perspective. Now the arguments he used in his column is not necessarily something I agree with, but I think most people missed the message in his column, and that is quite simply, if we lose John Smit we are screwed.

Great teams and great era’s are defined by many things, for me, any great team currently or from the past always had a great captain.

I was asked recently why I was so emotional whenever something negative is said about Peter de Villiers. And I think I need to put my support for old Snorre into perspective.

Nothing he has done in the past, or what he has done in his first few months of his appointment as Bok coach, convinced me that he is on the right track until the moment Peter went over to France and asked John Smit to come back to South Africa and lead the Springboks. From that moment, and until he is fired (which is the only way Bok coaches leave) he will have my support for that one single action.

We have debated many times in the past whether you select your captain first, and your team around him, or whether you select the best 22 and pick your captain from that group. It was a contentious debate back in 1995 when Francois Pienaar’s selection of captain basically guaranteed Tiaan Strauss’ exclusion from the Bok team, and it there was similar sentiments when Jake White stuck with John Smit as his captain and first choice hooker when he clearly was not the best hooker in the country.

All of this is of course a matter of opinion and preference, and I am sure you will know on which side of the fence I am sitting on! But it is an opinion which made me slept much easier when I recently read an article by one Gregor Paul of New Zealand when he chatted to Alan Whetton, a former New Zealand loose-forward flanker.

It was a discussion with the former All Black great on why New Zealand, dominating world rugby for the last 20 odd years, failed to win a World Cup since the inception of the tournament which was held on New Zealand soil in 1987.

In what was a summation by Whetton (which I am sure many South Africans will enjoy too given how he lashes out at the lack of discipline we instill in our children today) it basically came down to one thing he said that caught my attention; “We have lost a generation of leaders”.

That one quote sums up so many things for me personally it is almost unbelievable and impossible to highlight all of them in one single article – but the message is clear, strong and to the very point I, and I believe Zelim Nel try to make when we say that; “If we lose John Smit, we are screwed”.

Yes one man cannot win you a game of rugby, as much as one swallow does not make it summer, just as many conspiracy theories or opinions and ‘open secrets’ about De Villiers is, or might be true, but the one thing that defines this Bok team, hailed by some as the greatest ever is defined by only one thing, or one person, John Smit.



135 Comments

  • Ohhhhh I LIKE this one! :grin:

  • Comment 1, posted at 05.10.09 12:22:12 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 1) :

    Most Shark supporters would!

  • Comment 2, posted at 05.10.09 13:59:01 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • Normally your novels draw people like maggots to a carcass…what…no-one want to comment..or is it perhaps that everyone agrees?? ;-)

  • Comment 3, posted at 05.10.09 15:13:27 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 3) :

    Well that would be a first, the agreeing part!

    And this one was short!

  • Comment 4, posted at 05.10.09 15:31:32 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 4) :

    Too true! I think you need to think up a shocker again!! :twisted:

    It was short…I read the whole thing!

  • Comment 5, posted at 05.10.09 15:36:49 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 4) :

    We already read it on the other sites a few days ago. :wink:

  • Comment 6, posted at 05.10.09 17:05:37 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 3) : Not me…. :wink:

    The last time Morne wrote about John Smit as captain of the Sharks, I disagreed then. Morne said if the Sharks did not win the Super 14 he would be proven right, I said that if John Smit was healthy throughout the Tri-Nations campaign and SA wins the Tri-Nations I would be proven right (John needed the rest during the Super 14). So I suppose we are both right. :grin:

    As for this, as great a leader Captain Courageous is, surely someone will step up and step into the Captain’s boots and do a very good job. He may be no John Smit, but with John always there to lead, we don’t know how well any other captain might do (just not Victor).

    Anyway, yes John is critical to the success of this team, but no single person is ever irreplaceable, and SA has a great history of great captains, surely someone would step up?

  • Comment 7, posted at 05.10.09 22:58:55 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 7) :

    Who?

  • Comment 8, posted at 06.10.09 07:57:04 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 8) :
    I am trying to think…but cant come up with someone that would fill his boots right now…

    Future…Jean Deysel? I think he might have the right temperament?

  • Comment 9, posted at 06.10.09 08:07:53 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 9) :

    You think? With all due respect he does not come across as a great thinker of the game?

    Dewald Potgieter?

  • Comment 10, posted at 06.10.09 08:41:29 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 10) :

    I dont like Dewalds face…so no.. :mrgreen:

    Did yo unot say with theright coaching they will learn to be rugby genius? If he gets the right “mental” coaching as well, yes – he has the rest..

  • Comment 11, posted at 06.10.09 08:54:49 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 11) :

    Look nothing is impossible but hell you are making it tough for mental coaches out there to prove my theory!!! ;)

  • Comment 12, posted at 06.10.09 08:58:19 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 12) :

    Hey, LIFE is tough…deal with it!! :mrgreen:

  • Comment 13, posted at 06.10.09 09:01:56 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 12) :

    Se jy Jean’tjie is dom, he?? :lol:

  • Comment 14, posted at 06.10.09 09:06:33 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 14) :

    I say it in anonymity and knowing I am in CPT and he is in Durbs! :)

  • Comment 15, posted at 06.10.09 09:09:43 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • One thing he definately is…

    He is much bigger than me!!!!!!!

  • Comment 16, posted at 06.10.09 09:10:07 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 15) :

    You think he never goes to CPT??? :twisted: And I am sure Rob would feel teh same as me and your anonymity might not be so anon for much longer!! :twisted:

  • Comment 17, posted at 06.10.09 09:28:01 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 16) : he’s not as big as you’d think

  • Comment 18, posted at 06.10.09 09:40:29 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 17) :

    None of you know what I actually look like!!! … ;)

  • Comment 19, posted at 06.10.09 09:41:35 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 17) : anyway, Wolla strikes me as a really gentle guy off the field. I don’t think he’d hurt a fly.

  • Comment 20, posted at 06.10.09 09:41:39 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 18) :

    I am not as big as you seem to think either!!!

  • Comment 21, posted at 06.10.09 09:42:05 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 21) : he he… doubt you could be smaller than me :)

    When I met Monty Dumond a few weeks ago, he looked me up and down and said “I didn’t realise you were such a little oke”… bastard! :mrgreen:

  • Comment 22, posted at 06.10.09 09:48:35 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 19) :

    Where there’s a will , there is a way… dont be TOO comfortable with that statement… :twisted:

    @robdylan (Comment 20) :

    See – just the right material for Captaincy..strong ON the field and gentle nice guy OFF the field…now we just need some rugby genius worked in…

    @robdylan (Comment 22) :

    LOL – Go Monty!! :mrgreen:

  • Comment 23, posted at 06.10.09 10:29:43 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • It is a concern…nobody in the Boks team(that is young enough) really graps me as a natural captain. I always thought Fourie Du Preez, but he did a terrible job of captaining the Bulls in last years Super 14.

    It is a concern. We have lot’s of great players, but not a lot of great leaders. Maybe we are setting our standards to high….you don’t find a captain like Smit around every corner.

  • Comment 24, posted at 06.10.09 10:51:01 by Pokkel Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Author
    Assistant coach
     
  • @Pokkel (Comment 24) :

    as long as its not any of the Blue Bulls with those verflenterde Mohican hairstyles…geez – THAT is REALLY hillbilly redneck..

    Luke?……

  • Comment 25, posted at 06.10.09 11:25:23 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • All I need is for 13 people to loose a life in LMS then ill be gappy!

  • Comment 26, posted at 06.10.09 12:04:31 by Rahul Reply

    RahulCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Rahul (Comment 26) : this can be arranged :)

  • Comment 27, posted at 06.10.09 12:20:18 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • WordPress 2.8.4 is available
    @robdylan (Comment 27) : You want a jersey?

  • Comment 28, posted at 06.10.09 12:28:31 by Rahul Reply

    RahulCurrie Cup player
     
  • Hi all!
    Morne…just one little comment…did you see how NZ fell to pieces last night? Their charismic captain was missing….so your article can refer to most sports.
    By the way, I’m a John fan through & through..but agree…it is time a younger man is singled out and groomed for the captaincy, while we still have john around to help him.

  • Comment 29, posted at 06.10.09 13:53:28 by Me2 aka Mama Shark Reply

    Me2 aka Mama SharkCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Rahul (Comment 28) : Sharksword is already on 2.8.4… not much point in upgrading JustRugby, since we don’t really use it as a blog anyway.

  • Comment 30, posted at 06.10.09 14:11:06 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 8) : I know I will get some flak for this, but Fourie du Preez is probably the best bet to fill John’s shoes right now. He is somewhat a reluctant captain, but his teammates have an amazing amount of respect for him, he has a great rugby brain, and leads from the front like John. Not sure if he is the long term replacement, but he would be a very good captain (far better than Victor).

    There I threw one out that is currently on the team, there are others that I am sure will make great future captains. One of the problems is that none of us are familiar with the true inner workings of any team, the inter-personal relationships of players and coaches. As a result it is very difficult to tell who the true leaders are. I am sure all the coaches have future leaders identified.

    I am a huge supporter of John Smit, I just don’t believe anyone is irreplaceable.

  • Comment 31, posted at 06.10.09 14:18:55 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 31) :

    I dont think anyone thinks he is irreplaceable, but it sure as hell is not gonna be easy to find a relacement who can fill he’s boots..

    I dont think Fourie will be a good Captain, he has a way to heavy workload to stil worry about guiding the rest of the team – I think he’s own game will suffer as a result..

  • Comment 32, posted at 06.10.09 14:31:54 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 32) : Ice seriously, think about this, a Hooker or TH does not have the workload a scrumhalf has??? People said the same thing about John when he moved to TH, too much work to learn to play TH and captain the team. Hooker is a very active involved position, critical at every single set piece. So no, Fourie’s workload is no greater than John’s. Why would his game suffer but John’s game will not. Sorry, just does not make sense.

  • Comment 33, posted at 06.10.09 14:39:55 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 33) :

    Correct me if I am wrong, but having not played, i would imagine being a scrummie’s workload is heavy in the sense of quick decisions that needs to be made, fast distribution of the ball, heavy thinking the whole time to go with the correct options for the situation..same with FH really..

    And I dont know if Fourie can Multitask..JOHN can – for sure, I dont think Fourie can, sorry.

  • Comment 34, posted at 06.10.09 14:45:48 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 34) : Ice, now that argument has merit, that Fourie is not the multi-tasker that John is. You may well be right, I am not sure I agree, but if true that would preclude him from being a good captain.

    My belief about Captains is that a true leader, and captain, can captain from any position, however, it is certainly helpful to have a player in the forwards or scrummie since they are more involved. I hate having to wait for Mortlock or Oom Stef to come all the way from the back to the referee to tell him we are kicking for poles.

    Personally I think Fourie is enough of a multi tasker to be successful, but I certainly can see your point, and his ability at this has not yet been proven.

  • Comment 35, posted at 06.10.09 14:51:11 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 31) :

    I am not a terribly big fan of making a 9 captain. With that I am not saying Fourie is not a wonderful leader, but the role of a 9 as Ice eluded to puts a lot of load on the player.

    It is the same reason I am reluctant to make a wicket keeper a captian in cricket. Make no mistake, the first guy a captain should consult in cricket is his wicket keeper, and the same in rugby where the 9 and 10 are arguably the best guys to give the captain an idea of which way the game is moving.

    In a perfect world, just going on leadership potential, years left in rugby, rugby ability itself and a gift for reading the game I would have invested in Luke Watson…

  • Comment 36, posted at 06.10.09 14:55:08 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 36) :

    See my comment / question in comment 25… ;-)

  • Comment 37, posted at 06.10.09 15:01:14 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 36) : Leadership requires buy in from the entire team, do you really think that the rest of the Boks would buy into Luke being captain? I don’t. You played 9 so of course you would say it has the most load, I played hooker and clearly hooker has the most load! :wink: Didn’t Gregan captain Aus to a RWC final?

  • Comment 38, posted at 06.10.09 15:03:13 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 38) :

    Re Luke – as Morne said…In a perferct world, just going on leadership petential…obviously without out the dark cloud of contraversy around him..or where he did not have Cheeky as a dad.. :mrgreen:

    Most “hookers” I have spoken too say that!! :twisted:

  • Comment 39, posted at 06.10.09 15:06:58 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 36) :

    If not, SA Rugby needs to get in touch with one Joe van Niekerk in Toulon and get him back to SA…

  • Comment 40, posted at 06.10.09 15:07:24 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 39) : You know Ice, I think it is time to stop blaming Cheeky for Luke’s problems. Luke has done a fine job himself of pissing people off, without daddy’s help. Not defending the actions of Cheeky, but Luke has brought much of his problems on himself. The problem with the perfect world argument is the world is not perfect, and while Luke may be able to get a bunch of young guys at WP to buy into his leadership, do you really think Victor or Bakkies are going to buy into his leadership? So sorry, even without Cheeky as his dad, Luke has brought much of his problems on himself.

  • Comment 41, posted at 06.10.09 15:09:58 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 38) :

    Ja and having played 9 I was very close to the bloody hookers who think they know everything! ;)

    Gregan did indeed, and a good captain he was and a special breed, he took charge and people followed, I do not see Fourie do the same in the sense of leading rather he does it through playing and how he dictates. I would leave Fourie doing what he does best.

    On Luke and team buy in…

    The only guy that needs to buy into the captain is the coach.

    You choose your captain first and then the team.

    but I suppose we will disagree on that too !!! :)

  • Comment 42, posted at 06.10.09 15:10:28 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 41) :

    Victor or Bakkies buy into his leadership?

    Hence I say, you pick your captain first, and your team around him…

  • Comment 43, posted at 06.10.09 15:11:40 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 41) :

    I actually do agree with that! Was just kidding a bit!

  • Comment 44, posted at 06.10.09 15:13:13 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 42) : Typical 9, hookers don’t think they know everything, they do know everything!

    Sorry Morne, I don’t like to disagree with you, and I honestly do have a great deal of respect for you and your opinions, but do you really think that only the coach has to buy into a captaincy? I mean how do you think Victor and Bakkies would react to a Luke captaincy? Even if PdV bought into it, I just don’t see the lock pairing buying in. So what would the coach do? Find another lock pairing to replace the two best locks in the world?

  • Comment 45, posted at 06.10.09 15:13:33 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 43) : So you would make Luke captain and find a new lock pairing?

  • Comment 46, posted at 06.10.09 15:14:35 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 42) :

    Ah…one step closer to the real identity… :lol:

  • Comment 47, posted at 06.10.09 15:15:35 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • Oh, and Morne, I don’t disagree with picking your captain first, but what is the point of picking a captain that will not have the respect of many of the best players in the country? Picking John Smit first was brilliant by both JW and PdV, but John has always been highly respected by every player in the country.

  • Comment 48, posted at 06.10.09 15:17:05 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 45) :

    No need to be apologetic I love it when people disagree with me!!!

    I think the focus here must be on the transition of the team what you see now, to the team you want to see post 2011.

    I said in a perfect world.

    I will not pick Luke, but if we are discussing who has the potential to become captains in the same sense as John serves SA Rugby Luke fits most of the criteria.

    I see no other players display the type of leadership that inspires or resembles the inspiration John brings to the Boks.

  • Comment 49, posted at 06.10.09 15:17:36 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 48) :

    Again this new captain we are discussing will most likely only take over post 2011, whom of the current crop do you still see playing for the Boks then?

  • Comment 50, posted at 06.10.09 15:19:03 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 48) :

    I had this discussion with a Bulls support the other day, on who should succeed Victor.

    I said Dewald Potgieter but the way it needed to be done is that the coach needed to communicate this too the current captain and the apprentice clearly. Only if the current captain has the buy-in from the coach will this work.

    The captain, Victor will then not only take the apprentice under his wing but also ease the transition of the player into the team and to his team mates.

    Much like Australia does in cricket to be honest…

    The coach, team and everyone then through time, trial and error and learning will go through this curve with the least amount of disruption into easing the team into the new or next generation under a new leader, but the new leader is by no means new to the team or setup…

    Perhaps what they are doing with Chiliboy at the moment???? Just a thought…

  • Comment 51, posted at 06.10.09 15:22:39 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 50) : How old is FdP? I believe he is only mid 20s now, should play through the 2015 RWC. Just a thought, in 2001 did anyone really think JS would be the next great leader? Not really, he was struggling to find a starting role in the team with Lukas Van Biljoen. So who knows where our next captain is lurking.

  • Comment 52, posted at 06.10.09 15:26:03 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 52) :

    He will be 29 by 2011.

  • Comment 53, posted at 06.10.09 15:28:12 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 51) : Chilliboy and Bismark are the same age right? I just don’t see Chilliboy displacing Bissie as hooker, so no, I don’t think he is a future cappy.

    Oh and as I told Ice in another thread, neither Dewalt or Victor should be captain because they can not answer a question in English without saying “ja no definitely” first. :wink:

  • Comment 54, posted at 06.10.09 15:28:31 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 54) :

    On that last bit I am with you all the way!! :lol:

  • Comment 55, posted at 06.10.09 15:31:36 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 52) :

    Did John become a great captain he is today because he always was a great leader?

    Or perhaps because his coach, through shit and thin supported him when the nation wanted to lynch him?

    I.e. was he allowed to grow into this role?

  • Comment 56, posted at 06.10.09 15:32:08 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 54) :

    Chili has been groomed as captain since 2007… between me and you…

    Bismarck I can tell you will not stick around after 2011 – I just do not see that happen…

    Bismarck will be 27 in 2011.

    Chili will be 25…

  • Comment 57, posted at 06.10.09 15:34:32 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 56) : Morne, didn’t JS captain Boys High? My understanding about JS is that he has always been a great leader, even in his junior rugby days. Of course this is just information I have heard, I never knew him. My dad went to Boys High, and he told me that if JS captained Boys High then he must be a truly great leader! :wink:

    Maybe I am wrong, but somehow I don’t think JS became a great leader because Jake White showed confidence in him. JS was one of the four “squad captains” at the 2003 RWC (Corne, Skinstad, Smit and Joost). So clearly he exhibited leadership pre JW.

  • Comment 58, posted at 06.10.09 15:36:26 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 57) : You may be right, but at 27 surely Bissie will realize he has a shot at another RWC in 2015 at 31. I don’t know, maybe if the Boks win in 2011, he might leave, but if the Boks do not win, I just don’t see him leaving. But what do I know, I am just watching this thing from several thousand miles away.

    Doesn’t stop me from expressing my opinion though does it? :lol:

  • Comment 59, posted at 06.10.09 15:38:42 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 58) :

    He was the captain of the baby Boks too if I remember…

    Never knew he was a squad captain in 2003???

    Anycase, John is not the same captain today he was in 2004, of course it does not mean he was not a good captain in 2004, but I am of the believe he was allowed to grow and mature into this role into the captain we see today thanks to the invest and faith shown in him by White and PDV.

    Remember the uproar when White picked John as captain in 2004 before he even picked his first squad???

  • Comment 60, posted at 06.10.09 15:39:15 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 57) :

    On Bismarck

    Found this letter on Beeld….any comments?

    Ek wil net noem dat die drie van Bismarck du Plessis kort voor rustyd Saterdag teen die Leeus nie regtig volgens reëls geskied het nie.

    Kyk gerus weer en hou die nommer 1-stut van die Haaie mooi dop.

    Hy kom van die kant af in.

    Reg voor die baldraer vir beskerming en neem dan deel aan die spel en help om die losgemaal oor die doellyn te stoot.

    Dit is verstommend dat geen woord hieroor gerep word nie.

    Nie eens die skeidsregter of die vlagman het dit raakgesien nie.

  • Comment 61, posted at 06.10.09 15:39:31 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 58) : John captained the Boys High first team in 1996, in his matric year

  • Comment 62, posted at 06.10.09 15:40:51 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 59) :

    Bissie seems very temperamental to me, bordering on psychotic!!!

    I think he will chase the Pound or Euro come 2012.

  • Comment 63, posted at 06.10.09 15:40:57 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 63) : he can stay in my spare room

  • Comment 64, posted at 06.10.09 15:43:07 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 61) :

    I heard about the incident Ice but honestly did not see it. From what was explained to me by my brother it was technically illegal.

  • Comment 65, posted at 06.10.09 15:44:53 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 64) :

    Hehe, two psycho’s in one house, your wife will kick you both out.

    Remember Bissie comes with baggage ne! It is a package deal!

    At least you will have a doctor in the house! ;)

  • Comment 66, posted at 06.10.09 15:45:45 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 63) :

    I dont see Bismarck as a Captain – because of exactly what you are saying – he does not have the temperament for it..and unless he goes on chillpills – I dont see that changing..

    @robdylan (Comment 64) :

    Die Blou kamer? :lol:

  • Comment 67, posted at 06.10.09 15:47:49 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 61) : I am going to have to watch this again. My Afrikaans is poor at best, so help me out, they are saying that Beast came in from the side on the maul that Bissie scored from?

  • Comment 68, posted at 06.10.09 15:49:10 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • Whattup dawgs! :cool:

  • Comment 69, posted at 06.10.09 15:50:06 by klempie Reply

    klempieTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 60) : Morne, not only was John a squad captain in 2003, he captained the team in the game against Georgia (I believe). He definitely captained the team in one game at the 2003 RWC.

  • Comment 70, posted at 06.10.09 15:50:49 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 66) :

    Hope you have bunker beds in the Blue room! :mrgreen:

    @Morné (Comment 65) :

    On that note – it stil was not clarified…the try of Dewalt Potgieter against the Cheetahs – Kobus and a lot of people said it was not a try as (cannot recall) was offside. In another chat, someone mentioned that there are no ofside lines behind the try line and the try is legit…what is it now?

  • Comment 71, posted at 06.10.09 15:51:16 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 71) : Wa’s jy? :???:

  • Comment 72, posted at 06.10.09 15:53:10 by klempie Reply

    klempieTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 68) :

    Coming in from the side right infront of the ball carrier and then helped pushing the maul over the line..(i think.. :lol: )

  • Comment 73, posted at 06.10.09 15:53:24 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • Agree that Bissie is no captain, but Chilliboy is not nearly as good a hooker as Bissie is.

    I like Bissie’s unpredictability, makes him a scary rugby player to play against.

  • Comment 74, posted at 06.10.09 15:55:01 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 70) : Georgia, correct

  • Comment 75, posted at 06.10.09 15:55:28 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 73) : oh ja – noticed that, but shit happens :)

  • Comment 76, posted at 06.10.09 15:56:10 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 71) : Once the ball crosses the goal line, there is no longer offsides. But only after the ball crosses the line.

  • Comment 77, posted at 06.10.09 15:56:55 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 73) : Got it, my Afrikaans is not quite as bad as I thought. I will look at it again and post my opinion.

  • Comment 78, posted at 06.10.09 15:57:45 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @klempie (Comment 72) :

    At work…where else?? :roll:

    @robdylan (Comment 76) :

    Was just asking comment on a letter in a paper..I did not notice.. :lol:

    Please see my Q regarding Dewalt Potgieters try..

  • Comment 79, posted at 06.10.09 15:58:06 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 77) :

    So in essence – the rugby guru’s was wrong on that take by saying it was not a try?

    @Dancing Bear (Comment 78) :

    Not bad at all!

  • Comment 80, posted at 06.10.09 15:59:39 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 79) : Jy’s te luigat vir werk. lol

  • Comment 81, posted at 06.10.09 16:00:04 by klempie Reply

    klempieTeam captain
     
  • @klempie (Comment 81) :

    Pfft!

  • Comment 82, posted at 06.10.09 16:02:38 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 71) :

    You can be offside in the in-goal area. Law 11.1

    From my understanding the situation came about that the player either joined the ruck, or played the ball from an off-side position.

  • Comment 83, posted at 06.10.09 16:06:41 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 80) : I didn’t see the try, so not sure if they were right or wrong. I am sure that once the ball crosses the line, there is no offside. As I understand it in the case of a push over scrum, the scrumhalf must remain onside until the ball crosses the line then he can dive on the ball even if it is still under the 8th man’s feet.

  • Comment 84, posted at 06.10.09 16:07:38 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 77) : @GI Ice (Comment 80) :

    11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
    (a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to penalty only if the
    player does one of three things:
    • Interferes with play or,
    • Moves forward, towards the ball or
    Fails to comply with the 10-Metre law (law 11.4).
    • A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.
    • A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.
    • A player can be offside in the in-goal.

  • Comment 85, posted at 06.10.09 16:08:12 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 83) : My understanding is that once the ball crosses the line, there is no more scrum, ruck or maul. Once the ball is over the line, you can come in from the side and take out the ball carrier at the back of the maul.

  • Comment 86, posted at 06.10.09 16:09:07 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 86) : or dive under the 8th man’s feet, or play the ball on the ground. My understanding is all this is legal once the ball crosses the line.

  • Comment 87, posted at 06.10.09 16:10:41 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 84) :

    The usual off-side lines of rucks, mauls and scrums (being behind the last players feet) do not apply in the in-goal area, but you can certainly still be off-side in the in-goal area if you are ahead of the player (your team mate) playing the ball and you move towards the ball or play the ball or support the player carrying the ball.

  • Comment 88, posted at 06.10.09 16:10:50 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 83) :

    Dont confuse me now – just now DB might think I am not so intelligent!! :mrgreen:

    Someone from teh Cheetahs kicked the ball from his 22, it was chased down by hougard? went over the tryline – hougard was infront of teh ball and Dewalt came in behind the ball and scored the try..

    Conclusion then…was it or was it not..

  • Comment 89, posted at 06.10.09 16:11:28 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 88) :

    playing the ball – or who last played the ball…

  • Comment 90, posted at 06.10.09 16:12:57 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 89) :

    Just think of it this way, there can be no scrum or ruck in the in-goal area…

    This is probably technically incorrect to say in which KSA will correct me but the line (horizontal line from touch line to touch line) of the ball becomes the off-side line.

    If you are ahead of the player who last played the ball even in the in-goal area and you play the ball you do so from an offside position, so you can most definately still be called offside in the in-goal area.

  • Comment 91, posted at 06.10.09 16:15:07 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 88) : Right, I misstated, you can be offside, I was just thinking about rucks, mauls and scrums where they cross the line.

    Just a quick question, if the backline has be be 5 metres back in a scrum, let’s say a 5 metre scrum. The backline must be behind the goal line, now the attacking team advances the scrum toward the goal line, does the backline have to retreat to remain 5 metres behind the scrum or can they stand on the goal line to defend?

  • Comment 92, posted at 06.10.09 16:15:30 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 89) :

    If it was charged down number 1 everyone is onside.

    If Hougaard handled the ball after that in any way and Dewalt was in front of him he is not allowed to play the ball, even in the in-goal area.

  • Comment 93, posted at 06.10.09 16:17:32 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 92) :

    They can stay on the goal line.

    Must run, cheers guys will catch up tonight.

  • Comment 94, posted at 06.10.09 16:18:27 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 91) :

    Okay – so if Hougaard was ahead of the ball but did not attemt to play it – Dewalts try is legit, but if he tried to play it (but unsuccesful) then Dewalt coming in scoring would still be okay? as Dewalt was behind Hougaard who last ‘played” the ball? Shit sorry – just trying to get this one onder die knieg!! :oops: :lol:

  • Comment 95, posted at 06.10.09 16:21:52 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 94) : If that is the case, I don’t understand why when a team is advancing the scrum going for a pushover try, the 10, 12 and blindside wing don’t come right to the side of the scrum and stand on the goal line right next to the advancing scrum. Then as soon as the 8th man with the ball at his feet crosses the line all three dive on the ball with the scrumhalf.

  • Comment 96, posted at 06.10.09 16:22:25 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 95) : Unless Hougaard knocked it on while attempting to play the ball, the try is legit.

  • Comment 97, posted at 06.10.09 16:23:48 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 94) :

    Thanks for the lesson, Coach!! ;-)

  • Comment 98, posted at 06.10.09 16:24:29 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • Interesting.

  • Comment 99, posted at 06.10.09 16:25:45 by McLovin Reply

    McLovinAssistant coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 97) :

    Thanks – I dont think he did – but would love to see it again …but no PVR…

    Cheers everyone – catch you tomorrow!

  • Comment 100, posted at 06.10.09 16:26:03 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 89) : Intelligent people ask intelligent questions and learn from that. I still think you’re intelligent or should I say brilliant. :wink:

  • Comment 101, posted at 06.10.09 16:26:52 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @McLovin (Comment 99) :

    Wat?

  • Comment 102, posted at 06.10.09 16:27:19 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 101) :

    Whichever – I like both!! :grin:

    Bye!!

  • Comment 103, posted at 06.10.09 16:28:08 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 102) : Julle diskussie. :grin:

  • Comment 104, posted at 06.10.09 16:39:17 by McLovin Reply

    McLovinAssistant coach
     
  • Hey Rob, I have mentioned this before, but wouldn’t it be great to have an “ask the expert” section on your site. I would be very interested in posting these types of law questions for our law expert (KSA) to answer.

  • Comment 105, posted at 06.10.09 16:40:10 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • Make the Best CC Captain the Bok Captain.

    STEFAN TERBLANCHE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Comment 106, posted at 06.10.09 18:43:46 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 105) :

    We can easily arrange that. :smile:

    BTW i met a one time #1 Transvaal referee last weekend. he has been in Russia for a few years and is now in bahrain. A gentleman by the name of kobus Moolman. Very nice guy, I am sure he will be dead keen to help out and i am sure i can get a ref or two from the region to help out as well if i can’t make the decision.

  • Comment 107, posted at 06.10.09 18:46:05 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 106) : You came all this way to post that? Why no answer to our interesting law questions? :wink: Howzit KSA?

  • Comment 108, posted at 06.10.09 18:46:40 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 107) : hehehe, good refereeing there KSA, always willing to consult your assistants. I like that. :grin:

  • Comment 109, posted at 06.10.09 18:50:33 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 84) :

    Your understanding is correct but your interpretation is wrong. The scrumhalf will stay onside while the scrum is advancing, when the ball crosses the line he is allowed to dive on the ball… (unless he can teleport)… it will still be from an onside position. :wink: That law in essence indicates that the scrum is over.

    There is offside in ingoal. The “no offside in in goal” along with “the knock was behind the tryline, play on” Laws are usually made up in touch rugby games . ;-)

  • Comment 110, posted at 06.10.09 18:58:10 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 109) :

    :lol:

  • Comment 111, posted at 06.10.09 18:58:39 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 86) :

    @Dancing Bear (Comment 87) :

    Both spot on, but consider the fact that all these players who can dive on the ball would have been behind the tryline while the scrum was advancing, thus putting them onside to begin with and then only “offside” once the ball crosses the line. the ball will be pounced on by EITHER team AS SOON AS it crosses the line so, in reality, there is no room for them to go beyond the ball and be offside.

  • Comment 112, posted at 06.10.09 19:01:32 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 110) : OK then why does the 10, 12 and blindside wing just slide down the goal line so they are directly on either side of the scrum as it crosses the goal line, then when the ball crosses the line, they simply dive on the ball. If they do not have to keep going back 5 metres as the scrum advances and only stand on the goal line, why not stand right next to the scrum and dive on the ball before the 8 man can?

  • Comment 113, posted at 06.10.09 19:03:10 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 89) :
    chased down? As in charged down? (I am not trying to be a smart arse, I didn’t see the incident. :smile: )

  • Comment 114, posted at 06.10.09 19:04:14 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • Once the scrum is advancing and the 8 man has it in his mind he is going for a push over try, he is going to concentrate on the ball and won’t think about letting the ball out because the defensive line is contracting on the scrum.

  • Comment 115, posted at 06.10.09 19:05:27 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • It is just that I never see the 10, 12, blindside wing or fullback compressing in on the scrum like that. Surely if you have many people ready to dive on the ball as it crosses the line, the odds of getting there before the 8 man are increased.

  • Comment 116, posted at 06.10.09 19:08:55 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 113) :

    OK then why does the 10, 12… is there a clip of this that I can see, but I don’t believe it is illegal.

    let me see if I can track down a law reference to that.

  • Comment 117, posted at 06.10.09 19:09:13 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 117) : I meant to say why DOESN’T the 10, 12…. sorry about that KSA.

  • Comment 118, posted at 06.10.09 19:11:18 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 116) :

    I agree, but feel they may actually get in the way of their own scrumhalf who should be in the best position to defend against the try being scored.

  • Comment 119, posted at 06.10.09 19:11:35 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 119) : The scrumhalf gets one side of the scrum, why not send in at least one other player on the other side?

  • Comment 120, posted at 06.10.09 19:13:20 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 118) : :grin:

    Oh okay, Good question that as I said before.

    I am sure there have actually been instances of wingers / other backs trying to do that. I agree with your question, why not try it more often though. Maybe the thought of being the one who is out of places IF the opposition decide to spread the ball suddenly

  • Comment 121, posted at 06.10.09 19:15:12 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • I would have the player on the line right next to the scrum and in, what gridiron calls a four point stance. Both feet and both hands on the ground. From this position, they should be able to dive on the ball as fast or faster than the 8 man can fall on it.

  • Comment 122, posted at 06.10.09 19:15:51 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 92) :

    They can stay on the goal line.

  • Comment 123, posted at 06.10.09 19:18:19 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 121) : Right, but as I said before, once the 8 man has it in his mind that he is going for a push over, he is not thinking at all about spreading it wide, he is too busy controlling the ball at his feet and staying bound, usually at this point the scrum has become somewhat unstable so concentrating on controlling the ball is critical. It seems to me there is a clear point where it is obvious the team is going for a push over try, and at that point, have a designated player rush in on the opposite side of the scrum from the scrumhalf, set up on the line and dive on the ball with the scrumhalf.

  • Comment 124, posted at 06.10.09 19:18:50 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 122) :

    If you have a half decent flanker, his stance should be wide enough to prevent any attack from the oposition though. if he is tall enough his feet may even still be in the field of play by the time the ball is over the line. If the ball is still well forward in the scrum, they will never be able to defend against it.

  • Comment 125, posted at 06.10.09 19:20:27 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 124) :

    Agreed

  • Comment 126, posted at 06.10.09 19:21:45 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • Why do you need an “ask the experts” section – you guys sorted it out by yourselves!!!

    We have enough experts right here!!!

  • Comment 127, posted at 06.10.09 19:37:09 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • Sorry guys, dropped my laptop…..hehehe.

    Anyway was just wondering why I have not seen a team try this tactic. I agree that the flank should defend against this, but at least make him do it, perhaps more than one player on one side may help. Got to go guys, great chatting….Cheers.

  • Comment 128, posted at 06.10.09 19:46:31 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearTeam captain
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 117) :

    20.12 OFFSIDE AT THE SCRUM

    (g) Offside for players not in the scrum. Players who are not in the scrum and who are not the team’s scrum half, are offside if they remain in front of their offside line or overstep the offside line which is a line parallel to the goal lines and 5 metres behind the hindmost player of each team in a scrum.

    Penalty: Penalty Kick on the offside line

    (h) If the hindmost foot of a team is on or behind that team’s goal line, the offside line for scrum halves and non-participants is the goal line.

  • Comment 129, posted at 06.10.09 19:49:11 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 128) :

    OUCH!!!! Is it a “tuffbook” :razz:

  • Comment 130, posted at 06.10.09 19:49:51 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 106) :

    Surely you meant Luke Watson!!! :twisted:

  • Comment 131, posted at 07.10.09 07:05:45 by wpw Reply
    Administrator
    wpwAssistant coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 114) :

    Ja man – jy weet wat ek bedoel!! :oops: :lol:

  • Comment 132, posted at 07.10.09 07:51:43 by GI Ice Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    IceAssistant coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 106) : yey :razz:

    morning all

  • Comment 133, posted at 07.10.09 07:56:55 by rekinek Reply
    Competition WinnerCompetition Winner Author
    rekinekTeam captain
     
  • @rekinek (Comment 133) : howzit :)

  • Comment 134, posted at 07.10.09 08:01:01 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 134) : :cool:
    it was rather a brief pop-in. gotta run again :sad:

  • Comment 135, posted at 07.10.09 08:03:31 by rekinek Reply
    Competition WinnerCompetition Winner Author
    rekinekTeam captain
     

Add Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.