Morné

Was it a try?


Written by Morné Nortier (Morné)

Posted in :Bulls, Cheetahs, Currie Cup, Original Content on 9 Oct 2009 at 11:32
Tagged with : , , ,

The following is based on a discussion we had on Sharksworld a couple of days ago about an incident in the Bulls v. Cheetahs game and a try being scored by the Bulls which was questioned.

This is really for Ice who had the question but I believe a lot of you will find this interesting too.

The incident occurred in the Bulls v. Cheetahs match recently where Dewald Potgieter scored a try following a charge down in the Cheetahs 22 meter area.

I managed to see the match and the incident subsequent to our original discussion and here is the incident, and the correct ruling on the matter.

JL Potgieter receives the ball and attempts a clearance kick in his 22 meter area. Both Dewald Potgieter and Deon Stegmann charges at Potgieter and the ball is charged down.

The ball ends up in the in-goal area of the Cheetahs where Stegmann first tries and score the try by diving on the ball and eventually Potgieter scoring what looked like a legitimate try.

However, at the point of the ball being charged down, Stegmann was in front of Potgieter who was the player who actually charged the ball down.

Stegmann, in front of Potgieter at the time of the charge down continued to move forward to the ball and got to it first. He also ‘handled’ the ball (touched it) but it seemed to have gone backwards from him, where Dewald Potgieter following up on his charge down has a simple job of applying pressure on the ball in the in-goal area.

After consultation with the TMO (it was referred), the try is awarded.

Technically the try should not have been awarded, instead, the Cheetahs should have received a penalty in line with where the try was scored, on their own 5 meter line.

The main problem is Stegmann being in front of Potgieter when he charges the ball down, this puts him off-side. Since he continued to move forward and was the first player to play the ball after the charge down (never being put on-side by Dewald) he played it in the in-goal area from an off-side position. Result: Penalty Cheetahs.

However, the referee did not see, or could not judge the player to be in front.

He referred it to the TMO which now begs the question that if it was clearly visible on video evidence, why the TMO did not call it to the ref but instead awarded a try?

Well quite simply, he is not allowed to.

IRB protocol states that the TMO can only advise the referee on incidents within the in-goal area or the action in scoring the actual try, including incidents in which the defenders illegally prevent a try from being scored, i.e. whether the player had a foot in touch or touch in-goal.

The TMO was therefore only limited to judge the merits of the try once the ball moved into the in-goal area (the charge down happened 15 meters out and is the referee’s responsibility to adjudicate) and when it did, Stegmann knocked it back and Potgieter successfully grounded the ball for a ‘legal’ try to be awarded.

The referee decided to give the benefit of the doubt to the Bulls player being on-side (from his view).

So the conclusion, it should not have been a try but a penalty to the Cheetahs instead, but because of the limitations placed on TMO’s in the game currently, it can only be attributed to the referee being unable to see that Stegmann was in front of Dewald Potgieter.

So this was simply a mistake from the referee.



60 Comments

  • so finally got this post up, then :)

  • Comment 1, posted at 09.10.09 11:49:58 by robdylan Reply
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  • oh c’mon you questioning just one bulls try. their final try in the first griquas clash was created through obstruction. the bulls are like man united, referees are too scared to blow against them. bulls get a lot of dubious tries. but hey if you can bribe referees use it to your advantage.

  • Comment 2, posted at 09.10.09 13:20:05 by try time Reply

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  • It must rankle a TMO to make the deciding decission to award a try knowing that is the wrong decission. I wonder what would happen if he answered “you may award the try, (but then added) unfortunatley” It would certainly alert the ref to it not being a legit try but I suspect by then nothing further could be done not to award the try

  • Comment 3, posted at 09.10.09 13:20:15 by Salmonoid Reply
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  • i thought the tmo was allowed to rule on the last move before crossing the goal line. but i am not sure tmo rules change every year.

  • Comment 4, posted at 09.10.09 13:25:11 by try time Reply

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  • hang on i remember a caller phoning all out rugby and he questioned the legitimacy of two other bulls tries from this game. and i must agree, the aussie ref was a shocker.

  • Comment 5, posted at 09.10.09 13:26:54 by try time Reply

    Super Rugby player
     
  • @try time (Comment 4) :

    IRB Protocol Area of Jurisdiction

    Area of Adjudication

    The areas of adjudication are limited to Law 6. 8 (b), 6.8 (d) and 6.8 (e) and therefore relate to:

    Grounding of the ball for try and touch down
    Touch, touch-in-goal, ball being made dead during the act of grounding the ball.

    This includes situations where a player may or may not have stepped in touch in the act of grounding the ball on or over the goal line.

    The TMO could therefore be requested to assist the referee in making the following decisions:

    Try
    No try and scrum awarded 5 metres
    Touch down by a defender
    In touch – line-out
    Touch-in-goal
    Ball dead on or over the dead ball line
    Penalty tries after acts of foul play in in-goal
    All kicks at goal including dropped goals.

    The TMO must not be requested to provide information on players prior to the ball going into in-goal (except touch in the act of grounding the ball).

    The TMO must not be asked to assist in any other decision other than those listed.

  • Comment 6, posted at 09.10.09 13:36:16 by Morné Reply
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  • @try time (Comment 5) : The try by WO was from a forward pass… :roll:

  • Comment 7, posted at 09.10.09 14:28:56 by Charlie Reply

    CharlieSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 6) : thanks for the clarification. waste of money having a tmo then isn’t it.

  • Comment 8, posted at 09.10.09 15:03:19 by try time Reply

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  • @Charlie (Comment 7) : @try time (Comment 8) : The only reason I can think of is that it’s difficult to accurately judge offside lines and forward passes if the camera angles aren’t in line with the pass or incident.

    However I do agree with you TT that the TMO should be granted more power. We did see last year that taking play back too far can take a lot of time and can disrupt the game.

  • Comment 9, posted at 09.10.09 15:11:35 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 9) : yeah thats why i suggest the last move before crossing in touch.

  • Comment 10, posted at 09.10.09 15:16:20 by try time Reply

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  • but also what are touch judges doing. it is their role as well.

  • Comment 11, posted at 09.10.09 15:17:00 by try time Reply

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  • @try time (Comment 11) : assistant referees as they are now called aren’t living up to their new titles…..There just isn’t enough black and white in rugby nowadays…at lot of it is pretty grey :roll:

  • Comment 12, posted at 09.10.09 15:22:32 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @try time (Comment 2) : Bribery :shock:

  • Comment 13, posted at 09.10.09 15:31:43 by diablo Reply

    diabloVodacom Cup player
     
  • that’s the nature of the game – certain decisions are going to be dubious after overanalysing. The refs are human (even TMOs) and that’s it.
    The sharks also had a good share of decisions going their way and against them so I guess somewhere it cancells itself and evens.

  • Comment 14, posted at 09.10.09 15:48:04 by rekinek Reply
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  • @diablo (Comment 13) : yaa – that sounds a bit harsh must say.

  • Comment 15, posted at 09.10.09 15:50:36 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 15) : As you say, you win some, lose some. Roundabouts & swings ;-)

  • Comment 16, posted at 09.10.09 16:04:42 by diablo Reply

    diabloVodacom Cup player
     
  • @diablo (Comment 13) :
    Yes, you better believe it. :!:

    Jaco van der Westhuizen successfully bribed the big man himself with that t-shirt proclaiming his son as king.

  • Comment 17, posted at 09.10.09 16:20:24 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 17) : hey – haven’t seen you in a while

  • Comment 18, posted at 09.10.09 16:31:34 by robdylan Reply
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  • I keep a low profile when the Bulls play crap. :smile:

  • Comment 19, posted at 09.10.09 17:09:19 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 17) : :mrgreen:

  • Comment 20, posted at 09.10.09 17:11:14 by diablo Reply

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  • @fyndraai (Comment 19) : so you are anticipating a change :)

  • Comment 21, posted at 09.10.09 17:15:04 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 21) : I am an optimist.

    They will face the Sharks in Durban and/or WP in Cape Town and the way they’ve been playing recently it does not look like they will win.
    But its pretty much the same team that won the S14 a few months ago so there is always hope (or fear if you are a Shark or WP).

  • Comment 22, posted at 09.10.09 18:44:37 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 6) :

    But last week you said there is no offside from a chargedown?

  • Comment 23, posted at 10.10.09 20:30:59 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 23) :

    KSA, that was also my understanding.

    I believe Law 11.3(b) addresses the issues as follows:

    Law 11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS

    (b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put
    onside.

  • Comment 24, posted at 12.10.09 13:48:12 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 24) : hey! He lives

  • Comment 25, posted at 12.10.09 13:58:40 by robdylan Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 24) :

    I cannot find any reference to there being no offside from a Chargedown. I have asked a few top refs and am STILL waiting for an answer. :smile:

  • Comment 26, posted at 12.10.09 14:37:43 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 25) :

    Been at home with my leg in a cast for the last week or so and been too sour to visit a rugby site…

  • Comment 27, posted at 12.10.09 16:32:43 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 26) :

    Did you ask the TMo in the article? ;-)

  • Comment 28, posted at 12.10.09 16:37:27 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 27) : oh bollocks. What happened?

  • Comment 29, posted at 12.10.09 16:45:23 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 29) :

    Rugby mate… my last game of all time it looks like too. And we lost.

    I went in for a tackle on a big lunp of shit and, as he came steaming in, he dropped the shoulder (number 5 lock). I went lower than him and as I hit him in the mid-riff he just collapsed on me.
    Studs stuck in the ground, one helluva lot of force from above and something had to give. In the end it was my knee, hurt a ligament and picked up a fracture in the femoral condyle (that’s the lowest part of your upper leg, right on the knee… not fun.

    So another 5 weeks in a cast left… thankfully they removed the original plaster cast they had put on – it was from my ankle to the top of my leg!

  • Comment 30, posted at 12.10.09 17:55:12 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 30) : ah you poor bugger! Sounds like I need to buy you a pint

  • Comment 31, posted at 12.10.09 17:58:10 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 31) :

    Sounds good! Think drinking, and pub sports in general, are now going to become my new passtime.

    I’m so disappointed, and frustrated. Took me an age to ge tinto work this morning.

  • Comment 32, posted at 12.10.09 18:02:54 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 26) :

    Your answer is here:
    http://www.sareferees.co.za/laws/laws_explained/clips/1951481.htm

  • Comment 33, posted at 12.10.09 22:16:31 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 23) : @VinChainSaw (Comment 24) : @KSA Shark © (Comment 26) :

    The only reference I can pick up is this.

    It falls under the situation where a player can be put on-side by an OPPONENT. NOTE, NOT TEAM MATE.

    There are three ways you can be put onside by an opponent:

    (a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball
    runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.
    (b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the
    offside player is put onside.
    (c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally
    touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put
    onside.

    So this tells me that when your team mate kicks, let’s assume from a ball he received from a line-out and he was standing 10 meters back from his own line-out, and that ball is partially charged down by an opponent (intentionally handled as per clause c) then all the forwards (people in front of the kicker) who were part of the line-out and off-side according to the 10-meter kick law, is now put on-side thanks to the action of the guy who partially charged (handled) the kick down…

    This does not apply to Stegmann, his own team mate charged the ball down (not an opponent) and he was in front (offside) when this happened and continued to move towards the ball.

  • Comment 34, posted at 13.10.09 08:05:21 by Morné Reply
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  • THANKS!! :grin:

  • Comment 35, posted at 13.10.09 10:21:08 by GI Ice Reply
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  • @GI Ice (Comment 35) : welcome back… how was the looong weekend?

  • Comment 36, posted at 13.10.09 10:25:54 by robdylan Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 30) :
    :sad: THAT is terrible news…hey man thinking of you and quietly saying…”thank heavans it ain’t me!” ;-)

  • Comment 37, posted at 13.10.09 10:39:23 by Me2 aka Mama Shark Reply

    Me2 aka Mama SharkCurrie Cup player
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 35) : Hey there….how was it??

  • Comment 38, posted at 13.10.09 10:40:23 by Me2 aka Mama Shark Reply

    Me2 aka Mama SharkCurrie Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 36) : @Me2 aka Mama Shark (Comment 38) :

    Thanks guys! It was pure magic! Went way overboard in Paternoster Hotel’s panty bar on Thursday, and recovered for the rest of the weekend! :mrgreen:

    Had so much fish that I think I have some blood in my iodene! Mussels, crayfish, prawns, angel fish, hake, name it I had it!!

    I have to laugh though at those capetonians – very weird species…I mean they come and sit on the grass infront of the Blue Peter with some pizza and loads of wine, and stair at the water the whole day!! AND whats worse – the did not even watch rugby!! :shock: :lol:

  • Comment 39, posted at 13.10.09 10:51:43 by GI Ice Reply
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  • @GI Ice (Comment 39) : :grin:

  • Comment 40, posted at 13.10.09 10:53:36 by Me2 aka Mama Shark Reply

    Me2 aka Mama SharkCurrie Cup player
     
  • Where is KSA, I want his expert opinion on the law reference for the charge down!

  • Comment 41, posted at 13.10.09 12:37:59 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 41) : just to the north east of Egypt

  • Comment 42, posted at 13.10.09 13:57:37 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 42) :

    Thanks Mr. Google Earth!

  • Comment 43, posted at 13.10.09 14:07:31 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 43) : np :)

  • Comment 44, posted at 13.10.09 14:54:42 by robdylan Reply
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  • @GI Ice (Comment 39) :
    Thats the part that makes them deep thinkers man.

  • Comment 45, posted at 13.10.09 15:15:37 by Salmonoid Reply
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  • @Salmonoid (Comment 45) :

    OHHHHH…. :mrgreen:

    They think too much, no wonder they cannot play rugby.. :roll: :twisted:

  • Comment 46, posted at 13.10.09 15:17:40 by GI Ice Reply
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  • @GI Ice (Comment 39) :

    Ah Blue Peter. Many a sunday spent drinking on the grass patch… they make cracking pizzas btw!

  • Comment 47, posted at 13.10.09 18:49:15 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 41) :

    Here i am.

    @Morné (Comment 34) :
    That reference seems okay for the kicker’s team. Nobody can give me anything to confirm or deny your statement from last week that there is no offside from a chargedown for the side who has charged the ball down.

    I can only surmise that there is offside and therefore they did not bother mentioning that there is NOT offside.

    Vinnie’s link is about the best explanation I have seen.

  • Comment 48, posted at 14.10.09 05:07:21 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 47) :

    I knew someone around this site would be on eof those weird species… ;-) BTW, I actually did have a piece of pizza on Saturday night… ;-)

  • Comment 49, posted at 14.10.09 07:36:28 by GI Ice Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 48) :

    From what I can see the laws makes provisions for how players can be put on-side.

    No-where does it state that a charged down kick for the team charging the kick down can be put on-side by a charge down – it only applies to the team that was charged down.

  • Comment 50, posted at 14.10.09 08:20:27 by Morné Reply
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    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @GI Ice (Comment 39) : Don`t judge us Capetonians, we live in the most beautifull city in SA and wouldn`t trade it for anything. Also we have the most tolerant rugby supporters. The differance between watching the sharks play at Newlands and Loftus is you can actually have a beer afterwards with the opposition. There`s no hard feelings. That is what you get in a Civilized City . . .

  • Comment 51, posted at 14.10.09 08:45:54 by Original Pierre Reply
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    Original PierreSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Original Pierre (Comment 51) :

    It WAS a joke, you know…Pierre… :roll:

    But on that note…your statement is also debateable…Why would CT be the only civilised City? What are the facts to your statement? Or is it merely a perception? Here is MY PERCEPTION :I have had MANY a drink with the opposition after a game in Durbs…so that is what I got from liing in a civilised city.. :smile:

  • Comment 52, posted at 14.10.09 09:53:47 by GI Ice Reply
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  • @GI Ice (Comment 52) :
    And they tend to lead the way when it come to booing, both the opposition and Luke Watson.

    Their supporters were in fine booing form at Ellis Park this last weekend. Was weird hearing the home team getting bood

  • Comment 53, posted at 14.10.09 10:01:41 by Salmonoid Reply
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  • @Salmonoid (Comment 53) :

    :lol:

  • Comment 54, posted at 14.10.09 10:06:47 by GI Ice Reply
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  • And yet you came to Cape Town for a holiday hey Ice??

    Salmonoid even lives here!!!

    And not to mention Groot Vis aka Big Feeeessh!!! LOL :mrgreen:

  • Comment 55, posted at 14.10.09 10:15:51 by wpw Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 55) :

    Well it seems you get the reward for the most aggressive residents as well… :twisted:

    I went there for a long weekend – yes…did I once say that I did not LIKE your city? Or am I not welcome now?? :roll: :razz:

    I was joking about the “general” type of people living in CT..face it it is a little “out of the ordinary” to just sit and stare at water…the WHOLE day…but, shit, if it tickles your fancy – do it – surely I am still entitled to m opinion on it, not so? just as you are welcome to give an opinion on my city…I might or might not agree with you, but should it become an issue?? I think not…it IS rather trivial… :lol:

  • Comment 56, posted at 14.10.09 10:21:30 by GI Ice Reply
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  • @GI Ice (Comment 56) :

    I am sorry if I offended you Ice.

    My naam is nie quota nie, so please ignore my comment!!! ;-)

  • Comment 57, posted at 14.10.09 10:40:44 by wpw Reply
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  • @Original Pierre (Comment 51) : i must strongly disagree. joburg is the prettiest. scattered with mine dumps, all kinds of barbed wires and tuscan liked villas and “joyful” taxi drivers – absolute beaty :mrgreen:

  • Comment 58, posted at 14.10.09 10:53:54 by rekinek Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 57) :

    Accepted.. :lol:

  • Comment 59, posted at 14.10.09 10:54:31 by GI Ice Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 58) :

    :mrgreen:

    warped , I tell ya, warped!!

  • Comment 60, posted at 14.10.09 10:59:24 by GI Ice Reply
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