war1

Minimal clarity on contract saga


Written by Warren Smith (war1)

Posted in :Lions, Original Content, Sharks, Super 14 on 10 Feb 2010 at 16:27
Tagged with : , , , , , , ,

There has been an outcome to the judicial hearing of the Willem Alberts and Louis Ludik contract saga. Although the outcome leads me to wonder why they had the hearing took place anyway, as it leaves the Sharks in exactly the same position.

With the opening game of the super 14 for the Sharks against the Chiefs just 3 days away, SARU judicial officer Koos Basson ruled that the complaint issued by the Lions was invalid. Which means that SARU have effectively put the situation back in the hands of both unions who up to now have not been able to come to any sort of agreement.

Brian van Zyl did say in an official statement on www.sharksrugby.co.za that the Sharks would be seeking an urgent court order to allow the players to play in the competition.

If van Zyl always believed he had a watertight case, why is he only turning to the courts now? van Zyl also added that he hoped the matter would be solved by Friday. More on this as it develops



78 Comments

  • only winners here are the Chiefs.

  • Comment 1, posted at 10.02.10 16:30:36 by grant10 Reply
    Currie Cup player
     
  • SA Rugby shoots itself in the foot….cant believe this has come to this….

  • Comment 2, posted at 10.02.10 16:31:18 by grant10 Reply
    Currie Cup player
     
  • both sides got blood on there hands.

    Someone going to look a real idiot once judgement handed down.

  • Comment 3, posted at 10.02.10 16:32:34 by grant10 Reply
    Currie Cup player
     
  • @grant10 (Comment 3) : all three sides have egg on their faces

  • Comment 4, posted at 10.02.10 16:34:19 by war1 Reply
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  • @war1 (Comment 4) : and they all look like idiots in my eyes

  • Comment 5, posted at 10.02.10 16:35:16 by war1 Reply
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  • @grant10 (Comment 1) : At this pace you can add 11 more winners to your list. . .

  • Comment 6, posted at 10.02.10 16:39:18 by Original Pierre Reply
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  • From News24
    “However, in making his decision, Mr Koos Basson, SARU’s judicial officer, ruled that the wording of the complaint by the Lions required him to determine the validity of the players’ contracts with the Lions – a responsibility which falls outside the disciplinary regulations of SARU.

    As a result, he said he was unable to rule on the complaint.”

    So basically this Basson dude had everyone going to Cape Town to tell them that it was out of his jurisdiction to make a ruling. This he would surely have known from the documentation received before a date was set for the hearing. Wasted time and money.

  • Comment 7, posted at 10.02.10 17:02:32 by Salmonoid Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • This contract saga and other team announcement delays is really starting to get on my tits now!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I want to finalise my Just Rugby Fantasy league

  • Comment 8, posted at 10.02.10 17:03:18 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @grant10 (Comment 3) : the lions lose nothing, the sharks were trying to poach their players! If the blue bulls don’t want to sell fourie whay should anyone think they have a right to scrutinise the contract the blue bulls company has with fourie du preez?

  • Comment 9, posted at 10.02.10 17:05:24 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Salmonoid (Comment 7) :

    YIP!!!!!!!!

    However the way I now look at this, with my Sharks glasses on, is that SARU will not give any sanction against the Sharks if they DO play Alberts. If they will not say that it was illegal to play them now then they won’t say so in the future.

  • Comment 10, posted at 10.02.10 17:06:05 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • from Rugby 365 In a statement SARU said that it was “beyond the scope of SARU’s regulations to rule on the validity of player contracts” and Basson was therefore unable to adjudicate on a complaint brought by the Golden Lions Rugby Union against the players – Willem Alberts and Louis Ludik – and the KwaZulu-Natal Rugby Union.

    But surely it DOESN’T fall beyond their scope to rule on whether the players were allowed to play without the clearance certificate???????????????? Which I believe was part of the the complaint

  • Comment 11, posted at 10.02.10 17:15:15 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • Just heard this on news driving back home. What a load of nonsense really. Just playing games I feel Saru, or has Sharks messed up by not taking this to court in the first place? Really it has been going on for such a long time now.

    Wonder how the players feel? Jeepers man, not good for them. Must sort it out once and for all. So both players can have peace of mind.

    Hope it is sorted out by Friday. Don’t see them in the team selection this Saturday. Damn wasting time really.

  • Comment 12, posted at 10.02.10 17:22:36 by Puma Reply

    PumaCurrie Cup player
     
  • idiots all!

  • Comment 13, posted at 10.02.10 17:23:54 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 13) : Say that again Rob, bloody bunch of idiots the lot of them.

    Both those players must feel like crap really. Get it sorted one way or the other.

  • Comment 14, posted at 10.02.10 17:28:15 by Puma Reply

    PumaCurrie Cup player
     
  • the chiefs must be loving all this cat & mouse! If the sharks get a court order to play alberts, the lions can go & appeal it as they are also interested parties in the matter!

  • Comment 15, posted at 10.02.10 17:38:28 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • Yo Sammy!
    Koos Basson was at the helm of WP rugby when we sold most of our assets (e.g. Villagers rugby ground) in order for the Union’s books to show a profit. I cant believe he is now working for SARU.

  • Comment 16, posted at 10.02.10 18:00:31 by wpw Reply
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  • What a friggin freak show.

  • Comment 17, posted at 10.02.10 18:13:30 by rhineshark Reply

    Spirit of RugbySuper Rugby player
     
  • then again, we don’t exactly NEED Willem Alberts to beat the Chiefs.

  • Comment 18, posted at 10.02.10 19:12:57 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 18) : yes last year’s finalists, the sharks will make mince meat out of them…yeah right…keep dreaming :D

  • Comment 19, posted at 10.02.10 19:34:21 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 19) : we beat them in Hamilton last year… without Alberts. Hell, without Deysel. He went off injured in the first ten minutes.

    And you can say what you like about the ref, TMO, whatever. The result stands.

    Just like the 19-20 result back in 2007…

  • Comment 20, posted at 10.02.10 19:42:51 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 20) : you don’t have to cushion your retorts, i watched that game too… :D bring on saturday…

  • Comment 21, posted at 10.02.10 19:55:55 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • Only thing that worries me about Sta is the ref being a Kiwi trying to make name

  • Comment 22, posted at 10.02.10 20:01:47 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 22) : Will it be a kiwi ref? Heck, he’ll suffer most in these humid conditions, he wont be able to keep up with the guys.

  • Comment 23, posted at 10.02.10 20:10:03 by FireTheLooser Reply

    FireTheLooserTeam captain
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 21) : hey, your cousin is now my friend on Facebook :)

  • Comment 24, posted at 10.02.10 20:52:41 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 24) :

    Stalker!!! :twisted:

  • Comment 25, posted at 10.02.10 21:01:54 by wpw Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 24) : i can feel how excited you are from here…

  • Comment 26, posted at 10.02.10 21:06:45 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • My gast is flabbered. What in the name of all that is holy & unholy can the Lions possibly gain from all this.

    I’ve heard that these two’s contracts are exact;y, presies the same as Fourie’s. :roll:

  • Comment 27, posted at 10.02.10 21:15:50 by McLovin Reply

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  • @McLovin (Comment 27) : sorry dude, but the proxy has been shut down, as I’m sure you’ve noticed. Got my thinking cap on to find an alternative.

    You tried the tor network?

  • Comment 28, posted at 10.02.10 21:17:49 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 28) : Not to worry. :smile:

    No idea what tor network is. Will google it.

  • Comment 29, posted at 10.02.10 21:20:50 by McLovin Reply

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  • @McLovin (Comment 27) : were you hoping the Lions were going to roll over for the Sharks to walk all over them? If you approach me & say you want to purchase 2 players and i say to you, they are not for sale and you go behind my back in cahoots with their agent to speculate about how null & void their contracts with me are, how much courtesy are you expecting from me?

    I say the lions must instruct their lawyers to keep a close eye on the proceedings of the court and as soon as the judge issues that order for alberts to play, then they should appeal it and let the court set the matter for another date, some time in April!

  • Comment 30, posted at 10.02.10 21:26:20 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 30) :

    I think your comparison with football is not accurate.

    SA rugby unions don’t negotiate with each other the way football clubs do.

    The Player Agent represents the player and the union does not get involved.

    That is more than likely the reason for all the stuff ups.

    Until they impliment a ‘transfer fee’ nothing will change imho.

  • Comment 31, posted at 10.02.10 21:30:36 by wpw Reply
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  • @Megatron (Comment 30) : Fair enough. Not defending the way things are done, but as far as I can see the Lions are spending a lot of money (and if they lose pay the Sharks’ costs) to do what exactly?

    They should have got their contracts in order from the start then this wouldn’t be an issue.

    Hopefully some good can come of this and contracts are properly done in future.

  • Comment 32, posted at 10.02.10 21:32:46 by McLovin Reply

    McLovinAssistant coach
     
  • Send them to Judge Judy, or Judge Mathis or even Judge Hatchett, they should sort this out in a wink :twisted:

  • Comment 33, posted at 11.02.10 07:02:11 by Jarson's (X + V) Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 20) : I watched the CC Final 2003 last night, Bulle stuffed us 40-19, it was cool though :cool: . Not because they beat us, but watching it made me hungry for RUGBY!

  • Comment 34, posted at 11.02.10 07:10:04 by Jarson's (X + V) Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 31) : if that is the case why aren’t we hearing Frikkie Erasmus make all these rumbling noises? Why is it Brian van Zyl mouthing off about court rulings and such when, as you suggest, the unions do not get involved?

    Even in the likely scenarion that Frikkie approached the GLRU asking them to release his players from their comtract so that they can join other unions & the GLRU refuse, where do the Sharks fit in? Was it professional of them to allow the players to train with them when the dispute between the player’s agent & the GLRU was nowhere near being sorted? To me that is blatant arrogance!

  • Comment 35, posted at 11.02.10 07:12:41 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Jarson’s (X + V) (Comment 34) : i also quite enjoyed watching that game, lucas van biljon, luke watson in the mix, who was that sharks wing that allowed gavin passens to score in the corner? Eric Swaarts or something. AJ Venter was immense though.

  • Comment 36, posted at 11.02.10 07:17:09 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Jarson’s (X + V) (Comment 34) : I had the misfortune of seeing the 2000 final against wp last night. Jeez we had some plonkers in the team, how we ever reached that final is beyond me.

    Gaffie missing penalties from right out in front, Etienne Fynn knocking one after another . .
    WP had an impressive team though, can you believe there was a time when De Wet Barry could sidestep his way right through us?

  • Comment 37, posted at 11.02.10 07:34:47 by Original Pierre Reply
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  • @Megatron (Comment 35) :

    What I should have said is that in most cases the unions do not negotiate with their countepart but with the player and his agent… whereas in football, the club seeking the services of the player MUST approach the player’s current club.

  • Comment 38, posted at 11.02.10 07:36:33 by wpw Reply
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  • @Original Pierre (Comment 37) :

    De Wet was a very underrated player.

    He was much better than the likes of Pieter Muller and Japie ‘THUG’ Mulder.

    He won 2 x Currie Cup’s with WP and was instrumental in the 2004 Tri Nations victory.

  • Comment 39, posted at 11.02.10 07:42:14 by wpw Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 39) : I`m sure the PE Super Southern Kings or whatever they`re called would sign Barry as vice captain.
    Lucky Luke would of course be the captain :lol:

  • Comment 40, posted at 11.02.10 07:46:04 by Original Pierre Reply
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  • @Megatron (Comment 35) : Just a comment When is a contract not a contract? when the terms and conditions have not been met right? GLRU are in breach of contrace-see Jaque Fourie rulling. Hence Alberts Ludik and a few others were free to move on if they wanted to. Some did and some didnt. The point the GLRU are attempting to make here is that they have not and never will issue a clearence certificate for either of the players. The Sharks are saying that because the contract is nul and void it is not necessary for certificates to be issued
    Legal opinion supports the Sharks position and you will see that fridays high court rulling allowing the players to play for the sharks will support this

  • Comment 41, posted at 11.02.10 08:00:56 by Fattmann Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 16) :
    “I cant believe he is now working for SARU.”
    On da udder hand, maybe it makes perfect sense that he is working for them. :twisted:

  • Comment 42, posted at 11.02.10 08:50:20 by Salmonoid Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @Fattmann (Comment 41) : Actually not quite true. Even when a player’s contract has expired, and he is in effect a free agent, the player and the transferor must still obtain a clearance certificate, which in this case cannot be reasonably denied by the transferee. Just because an arbitrator the JF contract invalid, one cannot assume that the WA and LL contracts are also invalid, even if they are assumed to be essentially the same contract(which the GLRU says is not the case). Each contract must be independantly assessed. A precedent has certainly been set, but the arbitration must still happen.

  • Comment 43, posted at 11.02.10 09:14:31 by Greg Reply

    GregCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Greg (Comment 43) : I accept your interpertation However as the precident has already been set it will be very hard for the judge to go against a rulling already issued. Aligned to this they have stopped paying the players so it is viewed as an acceptance of the no validity of the contract
    At the end of the day the lions are going to be spending money on legal fees and when they lose the case all it will have done is created bad blood
    Having said that we need to operate the same as the british clubs and union deals with union transfer fees established and players salary arranged with the player

  • Comment 44, posted at 11.02.10 09:36:55 by Fattmann Reply
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  • @Fattmann (Comment 44) : While the precedent has been set, each contract still has to be scrutinised individually. You cannot just say ‘We think the contracts are the same, so we will assume they are, and react accordingly’.

    The GLRU stopped paying them because they absconded, and they are entitled to stop paying them under the BCEA. This non-payment, however does not release them from their contract, and legally it cannot just be assumed that the GLRU has rolled over and accepted that the contract is invalid.
    The GLRU believes the contracts to be valid, and it is incumbent on the transferee and player to prove otherwise. It may well turn out in their favour, but this is why the sharks should have gone the same route as the stormers and tested this back in November, not wait until now, and seek an ‘urgent’ court ruling. Van Zyl and Strauli should have pulled their fingers out then, gone the legal route, and sorted this out back then, instead they thought that GLRU would just give up on any thought of contractual compensation.

    In fact the SARU regulation on player movement caters for transferring of players, and makes mention of transfer fees, but the unions, all of them, would much rather attempt to save money by declaring disputes, and questioning contract validity, rather than buying the player out of their contract, and moving on

  • Comment 45, posted at 11.02.10 10:11:59 by Greg Reply

    GregCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Greg (Comment 45) : the Gregstar is on fire this morning! Keep going son!!

  • Comment 46, posted at 11.02.10 10:27:00 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 46) : get out your pompoms :)

  • Comment 47, posted at 11.02.10 10:35:45 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 47) : The scary part in all of this is that Megatron and I agree :lol: :lol: :lol:

  • Comment 48, posted at 11.02.10 11:33:13 by Greg Reply

    GregCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Greg (Comment 48) : yeah… you should reconsider your position carefully :)

  • Comment 49, posted at 11.02.10 11:37:08 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Greg (Comment 48) :
    I wonder how long its going to take before the jibe about subjecting children to the Lions culture, being akin to child abuse, is posted.

  • Comment 50, posted at 11.02.10 11:52:22 by Salmonoid Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @Greg (Comment 48) : why is that scary Greg? :-)

  • Comment 51, posted at 11.02.10 12:07:14 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 51) : Well partly because of the shirt you are wearing:!:

  • Comment 52, posted at 11.02.10 12:26:53 by Greg Reply

    GregCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Salmonoid (Comment 50) : Had to change to that picture, it was taken in the Gauteng Sharks Supporters Club :!:

  • Comment 53, posted at 11.02.10 12:29:15 by Greg Reply

    GregCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Greg (Comment 52) : i don’t get how that should get in the way of us objectively rationalising situations.

  • Comment 54, posted at 11.02.10 12:43:41 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 54) : Joke, that’s why there are THREE smileys there :roll:

  • Comment 55, posted at 11.02.10 12:58:42 by Greg Reply

    GregCurrie Cup player
     
  • The Sharks should have gone the same route as JF and then this would have been sorted long ago. There is no such thing as short cuts. It has got out of hand and very very ugly. It is also very unprofessional and creates uncertainty in the team.

    This morning on 94.7 Highveld Stereo, Dick Muir said that the players that left has opened the door for other players who wants to prove themselves. OK so let’s say the Sharks lose and WA and LL has to return to the Lions Union. Will the Lions take them back after everything that has happened?

  • Comment 56, posted at 11.02.10 13:11:20 by Farlington Reply

    FarlingtonVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Greg (Comment 55) :i forgot to put smileys man :-)

    @Farlington (Comment 56) : we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it…let’s first see what the court says tomorrow.

  • Comment 57, posted at 11.02.10 14:17:54 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 57) : you and the bridges, again? :)

  • Comment 58, posted at 11.02.10 14:21:33 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Megatron (Comment 57) : I won’t lose any sleep over it but it would still be interesting. I think it could have more of a negative impact thou and will make Muir think twice before selecting them. Well as you say we will cross that bridge (or go under it) when we ge there.

  • Comment 59, posted at 11.02.10 14:29:02 by Farlington Reply

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  • @Megatron (Comment 57) : That is of course assuming that it gets to court tomorrow :!:
    @robdylan (Comment 58) : I think all parties involved should build one of those and get over it already :evil:

  • Comment 60, posted at 11.02.10 14:30:41 by Greg Reply

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  • Rooob ! what happened her :?: :razz:

  • Comment 61, posted at 11.02.10 14:32:28 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 61) : you dislike? :)

  • Comment 62, posted at 11.02.10 14:35:02 by robdylan Reply
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  • ps. what are the stars about

  • Comment 63, posted at 11.02.10 14:39:10 by rekinek Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 62) : nope – it’s just busier. but nice :razz:

  • Comment 64, posted at 11.02.10 14:41:05 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 63) : It’s like at school, you get one when you do something good :lol:

  • Comment 65, posted at 11.02.10 14:41:26 by Greg Reply

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  • @Greg (Comment 65) : so you are the naughty one :mrgreen:

  • Comment 66, posted at 11.02.10 14:44:27 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 64) : all about trying to get you guys to feel more at home here :)

  • Comment 67, posted at 11.02.10 14:52:44 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 67) : i want to be a S14 player :!: :mrgreen:

  • Comment 68, posted at 11.02.10 14:54:02 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 68) : well, you know what to do, don’t you?

  • Comment 69, posted at 11.02.10 15:05:49 by robdylan Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 66) : Apparently :lol:

  • Comment 70, posted at 11.02.10 15:07:52 by Greg Reply

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  • @robdylan (Comment 69) :
    side is announced on sharksrugby.

  • Comment 71, posted at 11.02.10 15:09:06 by rekinek Reply
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  • i know i’m doomed to be a currie cup player for good… :-(

  • Comment 72, posted at 11.02.10 15:17:22 by Megatron Reply

    MegatronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 72) : u’re still young :mrgreen:

  • Comment 73, posted at 11.02.10 15:19:04 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 73) : I’m even younger, playing in the under 19s :!:

  • Comment 74, posted at 11.02.10 15:31:59 by Greg Reply

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  • Hey Rob, I like what you’ve done to the site!!! :cool:

    Ah, you took my advice and changed the logo. :twisted:

  • Comment 75, posted at 11.02.10 15:54:56 by wpw Reply
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  • @Megatron (Comment 19) :

    Why are you on this site? :evil:

  • Comment 76, posted at 11.02.10 21:56:35 by Just a Fan Reply

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  • @Just a Fan (Comment 76) : because it is free to join & i enjoy talking about rugby.

  • Comment 77, posted at 11.02.10 22:19:16 by Megatron Reply

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  • @Megatron (Comment 77) : @Just a Fan (Comment 76) :

    Ah, you two know each other!! Interesting… :mrgreen:

  • Comment 78, posted at 11.02.10 22:51:09 by wpw Reply
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