robdylan

It’s not what you do (it’s the way that you do it)


Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :Original Content, Sharks on 21 May 2010 at 11:27
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Lionel Mapoe? Excellent signing. Yet another shady deal that’s likely to end up going to court? Not quite as good for the Sharks.

There seems to be a fair bit of mud that’s being thrown at the Sharks recently and if you have the stomach to trawl through the comments sections of less partisan sites than this one, you’d be forgiven for thinking that the KZN side is about the most hated entity that exists on the local rugby scene. The sort of “I support XXXX and whoever plays against the Sharks” sentiment seems pretty rife at the moment and growing and that’s not really a great place to be in for the Sharks and their fans.

Allegations of player poaching have, of course, always been there and the Sharks, whether fairly or not, tend to get painted far more liberally with that brush than do other teams who are probably just as guilty (or innocent, since it’s a professional game now and everyone should really just grow up!). What does leave a pretty sour taste, though, is the Sharks apparent penchant for signing players who are already contracted to another union (whether validly or not) and then engaging in protracted legal battles to get their existing contracts overturned. It may be technically right and legal, but it certainly doesn’t seem to be much in the spirit of this game, now does it?

It’s easy to say that the Sharks’ bad reputation is a result of their own success – at least in marketing terms – and mostly fuelled by petty jealousy, but recent results make that a pretty tough position to justify. People don’t really envy or fear the Sharks anymore, which is a pretty sad situation given our “Team of the Nineties” billing. I guess the Nineties were a hell of a long time ago, though and perhaps i’s time for the Union to find some sort of fresh way to reinvent itself and break away from some of the negativity and poor public perception that has settled on the team and administration over the last few years.

Would it be too much to expect that the Sharks could take the lead in implementing something resembling “ethical contracting” policies in SA rugby? Or do the Bulls already have that differentiator sewn up too?



85 Comments

  • The sort of “I support XXXX and whoever plays against the Sharks” :shock: Surely you jest – that lil ole saying pertains to the Bulls :roll: :mrgreen: :evil:

  • Comment 1, posted at 21.05.10 11:40:50 by diablo (We'll battle ALL on the beaches, We'll battle All in Orlando) Reply
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  • @diablo (We’ll battle ALL on the beaches, We’ll battle All in Orlando) (Comment 1) :

    Every union and its supporters suffer from a persecution complex.

    Rob,

    People from this site will run the union better.

  • Comment 2, posted at 21.05.10 11:44:26 by Morné Reply
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  • @diablo (We’ll battle ALL on the beaches, We’ll battle All in Orlando) (Comment 1) : well… I’m starting to think we are rapidly taking over that mantle in most quarters…

  • Comment 3, posted at 21.05.10 11:45:35 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 2) : Morne, I reckon you and I could do it :)

  • Comment 4, posted at 21.05.10 11:49:22 by robdylan Reply
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  • Rob, I don’t know what you know but perhaps calls for ethical contracting policies thus assuming that there are unethical contracting policies at the Sharks are a bit far-fetched.

    So far the Sharks won legal battle over Alberts, which means that a judicial officer examined the contract and decided that they were right. So actually one should be on Lions’ case.

    The matter of Mapoe did not go to court yet and we don’t know yet whether Cheetahs actually decide to go that route – talking costs nothing, getting a lawyer and going to court does.

    What I actually want to say – most of the players out there have some or other contracts. Some of them are released peacefully and some not. Nothing to do with ethical contracting IMO.

  • Comment 5, posted at 21.05.10 11:55:56 by rekinek Reply
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  • @diablo (We’ll battle ALL on the beaches, We’ll battle All in Orlando) (Comment 1) : the Sharks are a bit down at the moment so they seem to be the easier prey. :mrgreen:

  • Comment 6, posted at 21.05.10 11:57:42 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 5) :

    The solution is quite simple.

    There should be a standard contract for all unions and players in SA.

  • Comment 7, posted at 21.05.10 11:59:58 by Morné Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 4) :

    I dont mind moving to Durbs for a couple of years!

  • Comment 8, posted at 21.05.10 12:00:27 by Morné Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 4) :Rob, as long as u stay far away from the team selection, it might not be such a bad idea! :wink: Can I apply for PRO or marketing position?

  • Comment 9, posted at 21.05.10 12:00:31 by Ice Reply
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  • I unfortunatly did read some of those comments and it’s not nice to read. I just wish this could be handled in a professional manner. Look we don’t have the inside info and for all we know the Cheetah’s contract isn’t even signed but it could definately be handled better. Van Zyl should have contacted the FSRU and handled this in a civilised matter. Bottom line is that everything is still speculation at this time and untill we now the facts we can’t really judge.

  • Comment 10, posted at 21.05.10 12:01:38 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 5) : you can always justify the merits of each individual case – fact is, in the bigger picture, the Sharks are getting a bad reputation for doing this sort of thing.

  • Comment 11, posted at 21.05.10 12:02:31 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Ice (Comment 9) : Morne can select the team.

  • Comment 12, posted at 21.05.10 12:03:09 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 7) : No there should not. Why exactly?

    I do not believe in something like a standard contract. You may have a template that you use but with every signing there are bound to be differences, price, term, insurance whatever.

    Plus the fact that somebody has a valid contract is just a beginning. You can breach or repudiate a valid contract and it may and may not result in a valid cancellation or not.

  • Comment 13, posted at 21.05.10 12:05:20 by rekinek Reply
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  • @Ice (Comment 9) : not sure – I have a feeling you would just sit with the players on the beach instead of working :lol: ;-)

  • Comment 14, posted at 21.05.10 12:08:11 by rekinek Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 10) : perhaps he did – one never knows.

  • Comment 15, posted at 21.05.10 12:09:11 by rekinek Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 12) :
    Do I detect a bad mood here??

    Okay,how do we go about applying for the overturn of current powers that be?? Coup d’etat?

  • Comment 16, posted at 21.05.10 12:12:13 by Ice Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 11) : on one hand you say that the Sharks are getting a bad reputation for doing this sort of things and on the other you claim that there is anti Sharks sentiment.

    Are you saying that this anti Shark sentiment is because of player poaching?

    It looks to me that there is this anti Shark sentiment and if things like that pop out then the others (meaning the people with the sentiment) immediately assume that the Sharks are in the wrong without even bothering to check the facts.

  • Comment 17, posted at 21.05.10 12:14:21 by rekinek Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 2) : I disagree – one bad performance and you would be sent packing judging by the locals on this site.

  • Comment 18, posted at 21.05.10 12:17:04 by Worcestershire Sauce Reply
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  • @Ice (Comment 16) :

    Don’t even bother!! :evil:
    I already tried!! :roll:

  • Comment 19, posted at 21.05.10 12:19:17 by wpw Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 13) :

    The simple answer would be to protect the interests of unions and players.

    Remember, the main forces behind contracts, making them and breaking them are not unions themselves so much, but the agents of players.

    I believe a system where the interests of the game (players and unions) are protected through some form of standard procedures is the best way.

    Obviousy you have different levels of players, which will include things other contracts won’t, but issues such as cancellations and grounds to cancel contractual committments should be standardized.

  • Comment 20, posted at 21.05.10 12:20:57 by Morné Reply
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  • listen, the only way we are going to get rid of this is for all unions get all their contracts up to date, and in future, if someone wants to move to another union, there should be transfer fees paid. easy as that. it works for football, why not for rugby?? this will help the so called smaller unions (fs included) to get money back for improving a player. and if you want to leave on a free, you just have to wait until your contract expires. Rob, is that so “undo-able”?

  • Comment 21, posted at 21.05.10 12:27:28 by VanWilder Reply

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  • Rudi has now totally lost his marbles :???:
    We are going to become the most hated and most laughed at team in SA. Although I think we will still end up higher on the log than the cheetahs and the lions in the future. Keeping that in mind, will it be that bad?
    Thing is, we do not need Andre P. Definately not!!!
    We definately need JDV. Definately Yes!!!
    And Lionel M will add extra dimension in centre and wing, and keep the competition for position healthy.
    Please Rudi, forget about all the rest of the names we are reading about :!: :!: :!:

  • Comment 22, posted at 21.05.10 12:28:53 by SharksRTB Reply

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  • Can’t the Sharks produce any players of their own?

    Whether Mapoe (and Alberts and Ludik) were on contract elsewhere or not, they have not made any friends and their conduct in my mind has been questionable. Take into account Andy Goode and I wonder where are the players the Sharks academy is suppose to produce??

  • Comment 23, posted at 21.05.10 12:28:57 by sanjaydeva Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 20) : Agreed. Why not go further and insist on values for Buy outs – ie player wants to move and Union is willing to pay for early release – standardise amount. Or percentage – ie 45% of contract remaining or something to that effect

  • Comment 24, posted at 21.05.10 12:30:15 by Worcestershire Sauce Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 19) :I was talking NRU, not SW!

  • Comment 25, posted at 21.05.10 12:33:37 by Ice Reply
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  • @VanWilder (Comment 21) : I agree fully with that suggestion

  • Comment 26, posted at 21.05.10 12:35:37 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 18) :

    Hehe…

  • Comment 27, posted at 21.05.10 12:36:43 by Morné Reply
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  • @SharksRTB (Comment 22) :

    JDV wants 2 mil, WP are still struggling to get sponsors to raise this.

    @Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 24) :

    Absolutely!

  • Comment 28, posted at 21.05.10 12:38:29 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 2) : you can say that again :mrgreen:

  • Comment 29, posted at 21.05.10 12:38:47 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @rekinek (Comment 5) : great pic :smile:

  • Comment 30, posted at 21.05.10 12:40:10 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 20) : easier said than done :razz: Yes, the contract should protect interest of both parties – this is pretty much the idea behind every contract, isn’t it. However, the party with more negotiating power will get their interest protected better.

    There is a degree of standards in every field – but I do not think that having standard contracts will protect either party better or worse. At the end of the day contract will be applied to a particular situation.

    What I am harping on is what if there is a breach of contract ie. one party does not play along. In such instance the other party may cancel the contract (and you can only canel valid contract). That’s all.

  • Comment 31, posted at 21.05.10 12:41:09 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 17) : don’t make things difficult for me today, please :)

  • Comment 32, posted at 21.05.10 12:42:44 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 11) : Rob, I agree fully. The reality is if the shoe was on the other foot and being done to us, would we be so accepting fo the judicial merits of the case? There are countless ” businessmen” out there exploiting judicial loopholes to their own advantage. Names like Shaik, Kebble and Jackson come to mind, the kind most people wouldnt want to do business with. I think Rudi and his cronies are poisoning our Union with unethical and or stupid buys and at what cost, we havent won anything in the past few years barring a solitary CC so in truth we are giving up our integrity for nothing!

  • Comment 33, posted at 21.05.10 12:43:41 by Vince Reply

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  • @VanWilder (Comment 21) : i’m not against this solution. But I think it may already exist in rugby. Remember in reports about Butch the Sharks said that Bath did not need to pay transfer fees.

    I gather that in Mapoe case he claims that Cheetahs breached the agreement.

  • Comment 34, posted at 21.05.10 12:44:19 by rekinek Reply
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  • @sanjaydeva (Comment 23) : thats what i would lv to know can’t we get our own players in durbs surly we have, if the guys arn’t getting a chance to preform :???: how can we know if they can deliver :?:

  • Comment 35, posted at 21.05.10 12:48:12 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @sanjaydeva (Comment 23) : lambie, mvovo, beast, vulindlu, cronjes plus have a look at the vodacom cup side. You will see more of them in CC. Perhaps not getting as many opportunities as some of us would like but they are coming through ranks.

  • Comment 36, posted at 21.05.10 12:48:31 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 31) :

    The problem is our administrators in general are incapable of reading and understanding contracts or drawing them up.

  • Comment 37, posted at 21.05.10 12:48:45 by Morné Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 31) : this is an instance where a good players wants out on his contract to go for a better deal, i`ve heard of a few instances where a players signed a contract for 2 years for example, and the union terminates it after one year, using the excuse that the contract was not valid… the unions cant have both side of their toast buttered…

  • Comment 38, posted at 21.05.10 12:49:23 by VanWilder Reply

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  • @stormy chaz (Comment 30) : thanx :cool:

  • Comment 39, posted at 21.05.10 12:49:38 by rekinek Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 32) : would it be a good time to negotiate an extra lifeline for LMS :lol: I promise to spare you just today :razz:

  • Comment 40, posted at 21.05.10 12:51:57 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 34) : that was pretty stupid from the sharks not to ask for a transfer fee. how many players did we let go who was still under contract with us? Steyn? barritt? we didnt make a fuss.

  • Comment 41, posted at 21.05.10 12:52:27 by VanWilder Reply

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  • @rekinek (Comment 40) : now you are grasping at straws me friend :lol: ;-)

  • Comment 42, posted at 21.05.10 12:55:18 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @stormy chaz (Comment 42) : just thought I would try my luck :lol:

  • Comment 43, posted at 21.05.10 12:59:45 by rekinek Reply
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  • BTW,

    I was just thinking, should I post a list of things to do this weekend when your team is not in the semi’s?

    :twisted:

  • Comment 44, posted at 21.05.10 13:00:43 by Morné Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 43) : yep i know but our admin is not going for that one at all i think we must top up our game for the CC LMS etc what do you think ;-)

  • Comment 45, posted at 21.05.10 13:01:32 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 44) : such as :???: sth interesting :smile: ;-)

  • Comment 46, posted at 21.05.10 13:02:26 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 44) : Don’t worry my wife took care of that. :roll:

  • Comment 47, posted at 21.05.10 13:04:36 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @stormy chaz (Comment 46) :

    As a Stormers supporter we have loads of experience – thought it would be nice to share… ;)

  • Comment 48, posted at 21.05.10 13:06:45 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 44) : and i though we can have a week off. You know … relaxing :twisted:

  • Comment 49, posted at 21.05.10 13:08:02 by rekinek Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 44) :
    Well, after all these years of ur team not making it, I am sure you have by now compiled quite a comprehensive and substantial list!! So, share with us, by all means! Might be a nice NEW experience! :twisted:

  • Comment 50, posted at 21.05.10 13:08:55 by Ice Reply
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  • Balls,
    So now I must be worried about how bloggers perceive the Sharks to be, even if they (the Sharks) are proved to have not breached any agreements.
    Im honestly more concerned about the negativity that Sharks supporters show to towards their team and union as soon as things get a bit rough.
    Is it the Sharks, or my fault if half of the Free State team want to negotiate with the Sharks, No, do it but do it within the law.
    Imagine if Straueli and co did not talk to Mapoe and he went to play for whoever, and when this became common knowledge that the Sharks werent interested in him what the negative sentiment to management would have been, we constantly hear it regarding Jacques Fourie, why would this be different.
    Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

    @Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 18) :
    so true.

  • Comment 51, posted at 21.05.10 13:14:01 by Salmonoid Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 44) : :lol:

  • Comment 52, posted at 21.05.10 13:15:10 by Worcestershire Sauce Reply
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  • @Salmonoid (Comment 51) : i’m with you on that one.

  • Comment 53, posted at 21.05.10 13:16:51 by rekinek Reply
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  • @Ice (Comment 50) :

    Well for one, count how many players from your team or province is now playing for another team and support them!

  • Comment 54, posted at 21.05.10 13:16:58 by Morné Reply
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  • @SharksRTB (Comment 22) :

    Most laughed at perhaps. Only top teams can be “most hated”. :evil:

  • Comment 55, posted at 21.05.10 13:18:25 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 47) : eeee :lol:

  • Comment 56, posted at 21.05.10 13:19:51 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @fyndraai (Comment 55) : Nah i hate the Bulls for their fans not their rugby :lol:

  • Comment 57, posted at 21.05.10 13:20:01 by Worcestershire Sauce Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 54) :I am already hoping 4 a Stormy Crusading final!

  • Comment 58, posted at 21.05.10 13:21:06 by Ice Reply
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  • @Salmonoid (Comment 51) :
    I agree 110% with you.
    I mean everyone is going on about JLP but he was never even in the picture for a matter of fact.

    So it all boils down to stop complaining if the sharks get alberts, mapoe or ludic, that means they have good ground to stand on and that they are actually awake with regard to contracts. Good for them!!! At least there is one thing the Sharks are good at this year and that’s just being Sharks…lol

    We should praise them for being awake and not put them down like some of our writes are doing…
    I do agree that it doesn’t feel fair the way it happened, but we don’t know the real story anyway, so who are we to comment?
    Plus if those players don’t have legal contract with their existing union then I believe they should not even be wasting their time with unions that don’t know what they are doing.

  • Comment 59, posted at 21.05.10 13:24:27 by Uli Reply
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  • @Ice (Comment 58) : Stop being a doughnut, and support a all SA final!!! Just like everyone else in SA did when The Sharks and Bulls played in the semis in 2007.

    BTW , I think if there is any team who should actually pull up their socks for the semis its the Stormers. So good luck my friend.

  • Comment 60, posted at 21.05.10 13:26:54 by Uli Reply
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  • @Ice (Comment 58) : now thats a good one :lol: :lol:

  • Comment 61, posted at 21.05.10 13:27:11 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @Uli (Comment 60) : Bulls had the S14 2009 etc i think its time s ;-) – one else to take over the winning

  • Comment 62, posted at 21.05.10 13:28:42 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @stormy chaz (Comment 62) :
    Yes it would be nice to see someone else get it especially a team who has never won it before. But really not the crusaders, they have won the cup way too many times!!

  • Comment 63, posted at 21.05.10 13:32:21 by Uli Reply
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  • @Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 57) :

    Too true.

    Bulls rugby is a beautiful thing.

    Bulls fans on the other hand…..

  • Comment 64, posted at 21.05.10 13:35:27 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @Uli (Comment 63) : agree but the saders must win this one so the final can go to the neverland ;-) and then they take the final well thats what i’m hoping for but the tahs aren’t going to make it easy for the stormers :???:

  • Comment 65, posted at 21.05.10 13:37:16 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @stormy chaz (Comment 62) : Stormers . and if it is between Tahs and Bulls – I will go for Bulls.

  • Comment 66, posted at 21.05.10 13:37:34 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 66) : me to never abroad team for the winning ;-)

  • Comment 67, posted at 21.05.10 13:38:45 by stormy chaz Reply

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  • @fyndraai (Comment 64) : Bulls fans ont the other hand – Some just like some others who support different teams ;-)

  • Comment 68, posted at 21.05.10 13:38:53 by diablo (We'll battle ALL on the beaches, We'll battle All in Orlando) Reply

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  • @Uli (Comment 60) : I think she just want to see Danny boy longer in SA. easier stalking :mrgreen:

  • Comment 69, posted at 21.05.10 13:39:58 by rekinek Reply
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  • @Uli (Comment 60) :Why? I like a bit of change and think if 2 different teams are in the final it will shake things up nicely in the competition.same as I like close games – it puts the “lekker” back into watching rugby. Just my opinion and ways. I support the Sharks and Boks – I do not believe in “second” team things…

    Doughnut??? Bwahahahah

    BTW – people here would know the other reason for my wish is, my fav intnt player plays for the saders and then at least we wuld have a SA team in the comp, so all is good and exciting!

  • Comment 70, posted at 21.05.10 13:40:03 by Ice Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 64) :
    lol yes that’s true but I sometimes I wish the Sharks had the same support… mmm well to think about it now … no I don’t think so anymore… no more beer on our stands, only one pub servicing the open stand, a bunch of hooligans together… no lets keep it the way it is…lol

  • Comment 71, posted at 21.05.10 13:42:05 by Uli Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 69) :
    Lol yes she confimred it… lol

  • Comment 72, posted at 21.05.10 13:44:41 by Uli Reply
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  • @Uli (Comment 72) : see ;-) no need to doughnut people. you only made me hungry :roll:

  • Comment 73, posted at 21.05.10 13:46:46 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 73) :
    Sorry man!! My apologies to everyone!!

  • Comment 74, posted at 21.05.10 13:48:22 by Uli Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 73) :actually I had a douhnut with that yummy white icing stuff on it about 30 mins ago! My hubby packed my lunch! :wink:

  • Comment 75, posted at 21.05.10 13:50:01 by Ice Reply
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  • @Ice (Comment 70) :
    I still say rather we have a all SA final. That would be wonderful, and then the Stormers can go and beat them in their own back yard, just like the sharks did in 1990 c/c final. That’s the best feeling ever. Agreed?

  • Comment 76, posted at 21.05.10 13:50:58 by Uli Reply
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  • @Ice (Comment 75) : lol no that can’t be , are you serious? lol :)

  • Comment 77, posted at 21.05.10 13:51:52 by Uli Reply
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  • @Ice (Comment 75) : you’re not helping :lol:

  • Comment 78, posted at 21.05.10 13:54:04 by rekinek Reply
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    rekinekTeam captain
     
  • @Uli (Comment 77) : @rekinek (Comment 78) :D ead serious!

    @Uli (Comment 76) :Let’s rather agree to disagree! LOL!

  • Comment 79, posted at 21.05.10 13:58:13 by Ice Reply
    Competition Winner IceAssistant coach
     
  • @Ice (Comment 79) : 1.)That is just way way wicked!!!
    2.) Ok well I disagree with you :) and you can agree with me :)

  • Comment 80, posted at 21.05.10 14:02:20 by Uli Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli BoelieTeam captain
     
  • Maybe it can be a little bit of frustration with the fact that whenever another team comes knocking and the player goes with cap in hand to the bosses to be asked if they can go – the Sharks let them go.

    Now the Sharks are pissed off because of their open door policy and have decided to play the same kind of ball game. But we get the bad rep because the other teams instead of letting them go insist on refusing to sign release forms.

    When Brent Russell went to the Stormers he still had a year left on his contract. The Sharks allowed him to go because they knew it was in his best interests if he were in a place where he was happy. Ditto with Butch James, Johan Muller and Deon Carstens I believe.

    Fair is far.

  • Comment 81, posted at 21.05.10 16:36:51 by Butchie34 Reply
    Author
    Currie Cup player
     
  • @Butchie34 (Comment 81) : that is true, but then again, I believe most players have clauses in their contracts that allow them to go overseas if offered a lot more money. Could be wrong.

  • Comment 82, posted at 21.05.10 16:42:00 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @rekinek (Comment 36) : Why don’t they use them and show some confidence in them? It can’t make the existing players feel great to see so many imported players.

  • Comment 83, posted at 21.05.10 23:32:37 by sanjaydeva Reply

    sanjaydevaUnder 21 player
     
  • In 2007 I supported the Sharks in their semi-final – and I certainly never, ever have a second team! Would I do it again? Yes, I did tonight – Stormers, jou lekker ding! As for supporting teams from outside SA? Never, ever, ever!!!!! Thanks for the genuine support from some of you “enemies” – as for the “rest” Sorry, your second team did lose tonight, but maybe you”ll have better luck next week? And then we wonder why the Ausie & NZ teams do not understand our mentality – even Hertford asked Chaz about that :shock: :cry:

  • Comment 84, posted at 22.05.10 23:49:55 by diablo (We'll battle ALL on the beaches, We'll battle All in Orlando) Reply

    diabloVodacom Cup player
     
  • @diablo (We’ll battle ALL on the beaches, We’ll battle All in Orlando) (Comment 84) : well me friend i did support your team 100% for all we are SA don’t you think ;-)

  • Comment 85, posted at 23.05.10 13:25:55 by stormy chaz Reply

    ChazTeam captain
     

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