Morné

Protecting our brands


Written by Morné Nortier (Morné)

Posted in :Original Content, Springboks on 2 Jun 2010 at 10:14
Tagged with : , , , , , , , ,

There has been a lot of debate on South Africa’s policy around the selection of foreign based players of late, but Peter de Villiers may just have it spot on.

Since the game went professional money has played in a big part in rugby with none more important than the fees professional rugby players earn in what is a relatively short career.

Rugby union is a very physical sport and if we consider the length of a professional rugby player being between 7 and 10 years at best, not forgetting that this is even shortened dramatically as any rugby player at some stage will pick up an injury – sometimes career threatening, we should be able to understand the financial challenges rugby players face.

Comparatively, careers outside professional sport enjoy a 40 to 45 year period in which you can accumulate financial wealth or well being.

We need to therefore have an appreciation for the unique challenges rugby players face when we offer opinions on the player drain from the Southern Hemisphere, to the tempting propositions of the Pound or Euro in the Northern Hemisphere.

It is also a challenge rugby players and unions and clubs in the Southern Hemisphere will face for some time to come and would therefore have to plan and strategise accordingly.

Part of this challenge the Southern Hemisphere face is to correctly identify the threat and the possible reasons this came about. Following this, strategies would need to be formulated not necessarily on how to stop this, but perhaps how to enhance this for their own benefit.

Ultimately the final decision will lie with a player on what he believes is best for him and his future, what Southern Hemisphere rugby needs to focus on is structures, and incentives for these players because in a simple price-war, they will always lose.

Simply economics relies on concepts such as supply and demand, and incentives whether that be financial or other reward based schemes offering security in any career.

Northern Hemisphere rugby has a demand for the best players, and they have the money to satisfy this demand, with Southern Hemisphere rugby in the position to satisfy this demand, or in effect, act as the supply chain.

So where Northern Hemisphere rugby has the financial incentive to satisfy the need, Southern Hemisphere rugby need to identify alternative incentive based factors to not only ensure that the quality of player does not drop, but to offer players a choice in what is a very short career.

Another important fact to consider when it comes to the value of anything in economics is that scarcity or the availability of any product or resource has a direct bearing on the perceived value of that item or commodity.

I believe the South should not concern themselves to compete directly with the North, but rather identify those scarce commodities to ensure the value (demand) to not simply go North does not diminish because if it does, it will directly affect the local supply and the value (strength) of that supply.

The economics game therefore and the challenge to Southern Hemisphere countries is not to play a global economics game but focus on the local economical factors not to stop the drain (you will never be able to put a complete stop to it in professional rugby), but to ensure the quality of the products (players) maintains a certain standard.

This essentially means that we should not open our borders, and adopt a free-trade model when it comes to sharing our resources, but almost adopt a nationalisation approach when it comes to protecting our assets, and the value of our assets.

Currently Southern Hemisphere players are in high demand for the very simple reason that Southern Hemisphere rugby and its teams have dominated world rugby for the most part since rugby union turned professional.

But there is also a reason players from the South enjoy the superiority and have the quality they currently have, and that is thanks to the structures of rugby in these countries which ensures a high quality product being developed and delivered onto the world stage.

In the past there was little to threaten these structures but with professional rugby, these structures are under direct threat and the challenge will be for countries to protect that.

So how do Southern Hemisphere countries create incentives for players locally to ensure protection of our resources and structures?

Well money will always be important, and although we should not try and align ourselves to try and compete directly with the North, we should ensure that our professional players enjoys financial security and quality of life or living environments.

For this revenue streams need to be constant and high quality products need to be designed and delivered to the viewing audience and investors and sponsors. This starts with local rugby in each country which is usually left to each country’s own devices but could also extent so that international, or inter-continental competition between these countries aid local rugby structures and competitions.

Two steps in the recent past have already reached out to countries like Australia and Argentina to assist with this being the extended Super 15 (starting in 2011) which gives Australian rugby a sustainable domestic-based competition or structure they never had before thanks to the format in which the new Super 15 will be played.

Argentina of course have been included in the Tri-Nations which will become the Four Nations in the near future.

The challenge for all these countries individually, and collectively will be to ensure a premier product to be delivered so there revenue streams from these competitions can be re-invested in local structures and players.

With revenue largely taken care of each country individually however will need to also focus on a very important aspect of the game locally as an incentive to compete with the superior monetary incentives the North offers, and that can only be done if some exclusivity or a scarcity is created in locally.

That scarcity or exclusivity has to be the incentive to receive national colours and caps for that country.

IRB protocols already helps in this respect with regards to their rules on player eligibility for countries other than the ones they were born in, but the Southern Hemisphere needs to amplify this need and use this very important tool they have.

Not only will this demand properly managed structures to be in place to ensure that you at least secure or rather, deny other countries these resources or players, but balance it with making it exclusive and guarding against making it cheap, or easy to achieve this.

This will have to also mean that even though a player is good enough to receive national colours, he will have to conform to certain criteria to be eligible to be selected.

The scarcity, or exclusivity we place on receiving national colours or caps will always add to the perceived value of that incentive, even if not purely financial. But since decisions made by players will be about weighing up the value of offers on the table we cannot afford to diminish or devalue the Springbok, All Black or Wallaby jersey in any way – and allowing an open border policy on selection of national players we will destroy the value of the product.

The snow-ball effect this will have on local rugby eventually is also plain to see. Simply consider the value of Currie Cup rugby games in the first half of the competition, to that of the second half where all the national players are involved. It is a risk we cannot afford to take.

In South Africa there are 150 premier or level A professional players (Super rugby) every single year. In total, the number of all professionally paid players in rugby in South Africa can go up to 400, and if IRB figures are to be believed South Africa has close to ½ million registered rugby players. If we devalue or lose one of the few, and most important factors we have in rugby as stated above, the 7 to 15 percent of top, or currently capped Springbok players currently playing in Europe will skyrocket to 60 percent and more, having a devastating effect on Southern Hemisphere rugby.

We have to realise that the player drain to Europe serves no-one but the individual himself, and the European clubs where no re-investment in local structures will ever take place, or if any (players returning) very little.

South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and to a lesser extent Argentina have to look after their own individually and collectively and in my opinion, take an even tougher stance on the criteria on selecting overseas based players.

As a recent report proved however where All Black coach Graham Henry wanted to pick a player as a debutant for the All Blacks in the incoming tours this month only to find out he has signed with an overseas based club leaving the player disappointed, proper management of this process is also necessary.

In future, this might also mean that Southern Hemisphere countries create mutually beneficial programs with Northern Hemisphere clubs on behalf of their players with properly managed exchange programs.

Proper management, forward thinking, and protecting our structures is what is needed in Southern Hemisphere rugby, and for that we need to realise and protect the strength of our respective brands.



76 Comments

  • Good points. Its so difficult to call though. As you state the duration to earn is a real factor.

  • Comment 1, posted at 02.06.10 10:23:31 by billy Reply
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  • Making good points… Long arti though to make a point :roll: :lol:

  • Comment 2, posted at 02.06.10 10:25:29 by SharksRTB Reply
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  • @billy (Comment 1) : @SharksRTB (Comment 2) : you two – very similar avatar :grin: ;-)

  • Comment 3, posted at 02.06.10 10:35:30 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 3) : Im big and fat. I win.

  • Comment 4, posted at 02.06.10 10:43:26 by billy Reply

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  • @billy (Comment 4) : :mrgreen: i dunno – SRTB has numbers on his side.

  • Comment 5, posted at 02.06.10 10:50:59 by rekinek Reply
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  • …so after all that how has De Villiers got it spot on.

    ….after reading that and i did invest part of my life in it.

    I think De Villiers has got it totally wrong.

    I believe the way we protect our brand so to speak is for the Tri Nations Teams to pick ZERO overseas players full stop.

    ….SA are in a luxurious position with having numbers on their side as opposed to NZ or Aussie, but in the long run if they get a wiff of the Bok Jersey from off shore…..the flood gates may open in Africa at all levels.

    NZ Rugby must stand firm or else it’s over !

  • Comment 6, posted at 02.06.10 11:00:02 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @billy (Comment 4) : @rekinek (Comment 5) : eeee :mrgreen:
    oh my we are all BIG SHARKIES so don’t go and eat each other :mrgreen:

  • Comment 7, posted at 02.06.10 11:02:30 by chaz Reply

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  • …Just read the Butch James thread what a shambles

    …. imagine that in the build up to every test.

    ….James Haskell was another case and point last year !

  • Comment 8, posted at 02.06.10 11:03:29 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 6) :

    I wrote this under the assumption that you would know what his current policy is, which is of course a far-cry better than what is proposed in media circles at the moment and also the reason I included my personal opinion at the bottom of the article that it should be even tougher (than what it currently is).

  • Comment 9, posted at 02.06.10 11:07:17 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 9) :

    ….so what is his current policy ? :???:

    …and what is the media circles proposed alternative ? :???:

  • Comment 10, posted at 02.06.10 11:16:48 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 10) :

    Current policy is that locally based players will get preference in selection for Springboks, and he will only look outside SA if locally based players are not good enough to play test rugby.

    Proposed alternative is that we select players for the Boks irrispective of where they are based because ‘we cannot compete with the Euro or Pound’ and this is professionalism after all.

  • Comment 11, posted at 02.06.10 11:20:14 by Morné Reply
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  • I’ll probably make more money playing rugby for 7 – 10 years, then I’ll make working 40 – 45 years in my current job :twisted:

  • Comment 12, posted at 02.06.10 11:49:07 by JarsonX Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 6) : @Hertford Highlander (Comment 8) : Have to go with you on this one.

  • Comment 13, posted at 02.06.10 11:54:26 by SharksRTB Reply

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  • @SharksRTB (Comment 13) : Not sure I agree… unfortunately we have to think of our local competitions and the money generated through them. If the top players didn’t play Currie Cup the tourny would end up like the Vodacom Cup… Sponsors would pull out, stadiums would be empty, no money would be generated for development and we’d have to look at European tourny’s to see our boys play… eventually though, the talent pool in the C/Cup would be so limited that the overseas teams would stop looking here… the death of SA Rugby

  • Comment 14, posted at 02.06.10 12:10:54 by SandTiger Reply

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  • I think Rugby should look at ways to generate more money – like the NFL – maybe host an end and begining season drafting that in itself would generate publicity and ad-spend. Make the game appeal to a wider audience to attract more adspend… start filling the stadiums through the greater appeal AND THEN spend the money one the one thing that makes this machine turn… the players… but be smart about it… pay them like car sales people… small basic… big commission… make the structure performance based…. I could go on, but you get the picture

  • Comment 15, posted at 02.06.10 12:17:45 by SandTiger Reply

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  • @SandTiger (Comment 15) : Yeah and throw a sexy ” Half time ” show in the mix for good measure hehehe!

  • Comment 16, posted at 02.06.10 12:20:49 by Original Pierre Reply
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  • @Original Pierre (Comment 16) : There you go… I mean there’s nothing bigger in world sport than the Superbowl! And the money paid to advertise during halftime is astronomical

  • Comment 17, posted at 02.06.10 12:24:38 by SandTiger Reply

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  • @SandTiger (Comment 14) : @SandTiger (Comment 15) :

    I’m not sure i understand….are you FOR or AGAINST picking overseas based players.

    ….. forget the marketing that’s a different issue for another day!

  • Comment 18, posted at 02.06.10 12:42:23 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @SharksRTB (Comment 13) :

    Wise man ! :mrgreen:

  • Comment 19, posted at 02.06.10 12:43:49 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @JarsonX (Comment 12) : @Morné (Comment 11) :

    What a absolute ridiculous current policy !

    …made even worst by the fact that De Villiers is making the value judgement of if someone is up to test standard or not.

    ….has De Villiers ever picked a debutant ! :?:

  • Comment 20, posted at 02.06.10 12:47:11 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • Superbowl sucks!! I think SA’s Nedbank Cup is more popular!
    There’s just nothing like the recent final between Amazula and Wits University!!
    :roll:
    Gripping stuff I tell ya!!

  • Comment 21, posted at 02.06.10 12:49:00 by wpw Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 20) :

    Uhm…

    Who else but the coach for any nation, policy or no policy makes the call if a player is up to test standard or not???

    And yes he has picked debutants.

    Potgieter, Deysel, Hougaard, Morne Steyn, Brussow and now Aplon, De Jongh, Francois Louw and Bjorn Basson from the top of my head.

  • Comment 22, posted at 02.06.10 12:50:53 by Morné Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 18) : Pick local first… in the case of a Francois Steyn though… the guy’s a legend… no competition so pick him… I don’t undertand Butch or Joe v N’s selection though… there are other players that could fill those boots…

  • Comment 23, posted at 02.06.10 12:52:35 by SandTiger Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 22) :
    I’m not taking about playing a mid week game against Saracens.

    I’m talking Test Caps….give me a revised list ! :cool:

    Morne Steyn, Brussow….who else ! :?:

  • Comment 24, posted at 02.06.10 12:54:52 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 24) :

    I was also talking about test caps, you can check it up…

  • Comment 25, posted at 02.06.10 12:55:49 by Morné Reply
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  • @SandTiger (Comment 23) :

    ….and where are you going to pick Steyn 12 or 15

    ….in my opinion that would be harsh on Olivier and Kirchner….hardly no competition !

    Racing Metro how have they gone this season with the great Steyn in their ranks !

  • Comment 26, posted at 02.06.10 12:57:42 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 24) :

    What about make it starting Test Caps….you could count the rest of those guys on one hand !

  • Comment 27, posted at 02.06.10 12:58:56 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • But for your records, here is a full list:

    Brian Mujati
    Andries Bekker
    Beast
    Odwa
    Schalk Brits
    Adriaan Strauss
    Nokwe
    Brussow
    Morne Steyn
    Zane Kirchner
    Wiaan du Preez
    Jean Deysel
    Francois Hougaard
    Dewaldt Potgieter

    There is the lot up till this test.

    Now you can also include:

    Aplon
    Louw
    De Jongh
    Basson

  • Comment 28, posted at 02.06.10 13:02:01 by Morné Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 26) : Metro went from a b-league team to missing the top league play-offs by a penalty… Steyn played most of that at no.10… slotting a 66m drop with legs to spare. I’d loved him at 12 in the WC though, but you’re right, on form He-Man Olivier should get a nod. Unfortunately I don’t see He-Man being a game changer… not like Steyn…

  • Comment 29, posted at 02.06.10 13:03:26 by SandTiger Reply

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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 27) :

    How much more do you want to twist the argument?

    How many test caps in general are in starting position vs. from the bench in world rugby in any event?

  • Comment 30, posted at 02.06.10 13:03:27 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 30) :

    I think my point is PDV does not look like a guy who has developed much talent….obviously he hasn’t needed to. His results have been outstanding (well the teams have).

    How long has he been in charge almost 3 seasons i would have thought he would have put his own stamp on the team

    …..so who has he brought in

    ….an illegal prop and Morne Steyn anyone else NO

    I think he plans to roll out the same side as fronted at the last RWC….

    …..don’t SA fans worry about that….i would !

  • Comment 31, posted at 02.06.10 13:11:50 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 31) :

    Every single one of those players listed above have a very realistic chance of making the World Cup next year apart from Mujati and Schalk Brits. And of course if Beast gets joy from home affairs.

    That is 11 players in two years.

    What do we want a Straeuli 80-odd plus Bok capped calendar year team again?

    I think the conversion rate of who he unearthed and how they have produced is actually quite phenominal.

    With that he has kept vital experience in the team with the senior World Cup winners of 2007.

    Concern?

    I am not overly confident for the World Cup from a Bok perspective, but personally I would be shitting myself as a NZ-lander and leading some columns by their most famous scribes in the last couple of months, they seem to be too.

  • Comment 32, posted at 02.06.10 13:17:07 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 32) :

    Conversion Rate …actually quite phenominal.

    …give me a break , but an interesting view.

    Re: AB’s at the RWC …i think we are in the same boat as the BOKs in many ways as we have a very settled side.

    But unlike the Bok’s i think many of our players are coming to the end of their used by date. I think the side will need freshened up with some new personel before the RWC

    ….expect to see the odd new face in the AB’s this year !

  • Comment 33, posted at 02.06.10 13:24:39 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 33) :

    Well forgetting the 4 new caps for the Welsh test and looking at who has a realistic chance of actually being included in the 28 or 30 man World Cup squad from next year from that list, I think his conversion rate is pretty phenominal from guys he capped who could go to the biggest rugby showpiece on earth.

  • Comment 34, posted at 02.06.10 13:26:57 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 34) :

    I think we can name the starting XV now for next years RWC…and it doesn’t show too much of a conversion rate IMO

  • Comment 35, posted at 02.06.10 13:30:40 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 35) :

    Well no, but I was referring to the squad.

    Fact is the run-on 15 will pretty much include a lot of guys of 2007 and prior quite simply because they are the best in their positions and roles within the team.

    And it would be quite silly to drop them as rugby world cups and most tournaments are won not only on player strength and experience, but also depth.

    And very few, if any of his Bok debutants have proven to be complete disasters unlike most coaches before him.

    They all fill the void most other countries experience in quality depth rather nicely, which is why most countries currently envy the depth of Bok rugby if you read what is written in the media.

  • Comment 36, posted at 02.06.10 13:35:26 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 34) :

    Out of interest this is the AB Team from the last RWC

    15 McDonald Not going to be there
    14 Sivivatu Starting XV
    11 Rokocoko May make Squad
    13 Muliania Will make Squad
    12 McAlister Will make Squad
    10 Carter Starting XV
    9 Kelleher Not going to be there

    8 So’oialo Not going to be there
    7 McCaw Starting XV
    6 Collins Not going to be there
    5 Williams Will make Squad
    4 Robinson Not going to be there
    3 Hayman Not going to be there
    2 Oliver Not going to be there
    1 Woodcock Starting XV

    IMO 4 survivors ….what about the BOK more or less than that :?:

  • Comment 37, posted at 02.06.10 13:47:49 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 37) :

    I think we have a lot more survivors hey.

    From the top of my head:

    1. Os – retired
    2. Smit – starting XV
    3. BJ – starting XV by all accounts cause he is on his way back
    4. Bakkies – starting XV
    5. Victor – starting XV
    6. Schalk – squad
    7. Juan – starting XV
    8. Danie – squad
    9. Fourie – starting XV
    10. Butch – possible squad
    11. Habana – starting XV
    12. Steyn – unkown really but think squad in the least
    13. Jaque Fourie – starting XV
    14. JP Pietersen – squad
    15. Monty – retired

    Boks have only lost two for sure. The rest very much still in the reckoning.

    What excited me a bit though is our back up depth:

    1. Beast, Guthro, CJ
    2. Bismarck, Strauss, Liebenberg
    3. Kruger
    4. Flip, Fondse, Van Zyl, Sykes
    5. Bekker
    6. Brussow, Potgieter, Francoie Louw
    7. Deysel, Stegman
    8. Spies, Kanko, Alberts, Vermeulen
    9. Duvenhage, January, Sarel, Hougaard
    10. Steyn, Pienaar
    11. Hougaard, Basson, Mapoe
    12. Wynand, De Jongh, Bosman
    13. Adi, De Jongh
    14. Odwa, Akona, Nokwe
    15. Kirchner, Pietersen, Aplon, Frans Steyn

    Some guys will be really unlucky.

    Peter’s main mission this year will be to get the mix right.

    The guys from 2007 that cant keep up anymore he needs to cut and then he needs to build new combinations in those positions in the next 2 seasons he has.

  • Comment 38, posted at 02.06.10 13:57:40 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 28) :

    Hargreaves??? :roll:

  • Comment 39, posted at 02.06.10 14:01:31 by wpw Reply
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  • @SandTiger (Comment 29) :

    Frans Steyn is overrated!! :roll:

  • Comment 40, posted at 02.06.10 14:02:24 by wpw Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 38) :

    Interesting :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

    Big season ahead then ….lets hope he has his thinking cap on ! :mrgreen:

  • Comment 41, posted at 02.06.10 14:04:09 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 40) : I might agree… He’s rated based on potential. Not always performance, but based on what he has been able to achieve for the boks in big games… drops… kicks from inside his half… I’d still make a space for him any day of the week.

  • Comment 42, posted at 02.06.10 14:05:47 by SandTiger Reply

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  • @wpw (Comment 39) :

    What he said.

    @SandTiger (Comment 42) :

    let’s see him play Bok rugby first.

  • Comment 43, posted at 02.06.10 14:07:07 by Morné Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 37) : You have to put this into perspective. The RWC 2007 Boks were reletively young although very experienced and the AB’s had an ageing squad at the 2007 RWC. Not that many of the players that will go to the 2011 tournament will make it to 2015. If you really want to compare then compare the 2003 teams to the 2007 teams and you’ll probably see more suvivors from the AB’s than the Boks.

  • Comment 44, posted at 02.06.10 14:28:07 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 44) : I hope that made sense…I don’t think I expressed myself very well.

  • Comment 45, posted at 02.06.10 14:29:07 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 44) :

    From 2003 I think Carter, Melalamu, Nonu, Williams, McCaw, Flynn, Muliania, Rokocoko were all in the 2003 Squad

    …how bad will they feel when they fail again !

  • Comment 46, posted at 02.06.10 14:32:13 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 45) :

    I’m getting use to it ! :mrgreen:

  • Comment 47, posted at 02.06.10 14:33:12 by Hertford Highlander Reply
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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 46) : ‘when they fail again’

    That’s very un-patriotic from you :shock:

  • Comment 48, posted at 02.06.10 14:34:35 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • @Hertford Highlander (Comment 46) :
    The 30 man squad for the Boks in 2003

    Springbok squad:

    Backs: De Wet Barry (Western Province), Gcobani Bobo (Lions), Thinus Delport (Falcons), Neil de Kock (Western Province), Jaque Fourie (Lions), Werner Greeff (Western Province), Derick Hougaard (Bulls), Louis Koen (Lions), Ricardo Loubscher (Sharks), Jorrie Muller (Lions), Breyton Paulse (Western Province), Stefan Terblanche (Sharks), Joost van der Westhuizen (Bulls), Ashwin Willemse (Lions).

    Forwards: Richard Bands (Bulls), Christo Bezuidenhout (Pumas), Selborne Boome (Western Province), Bakkies Botha (Bulls), Schalk Burger (Western Province), Danie Coetzee (Bulls), Corne Krige (Western Province, captain), Victor Matfield (Bulls), Faan Rautenbach (Western Province), Danie Rossouw (Bulls), Dale Santon (SWD Eagles), Hendro Scholtz (Free State Cheetahs), Juan Smith (Free State Cheetahs), John Smit (Sharks), Lawrence Sephaka (Lions) and Joe van Niekerk (Lions).

    Springbok World Cup Management

    Only surviror for the backs are Jaque Fourie.
    A lot more from the forwards though.

    Looking at that backline it’s no surprise we did so badly.

  • Comment 49, posted at 02.06.10 14:37:10 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 49) : Generally its accepted that the life-span of a forward is longer than that of a back so I don’t find this odd… Mossie was also only shaving bumfluff at the time though. As for the forwards… we should have done what the Sharks need to do this year: MAUL THE BALL! what a pack…

  • Comment 50, posted at 02.06.10 16:19:09 by SandTiger Reply

    SandTigerUnder 19 player
     
  • BIG mistake to use foreign-based Boks – it will just lead to watering down of local competition and a loss of brand strength.

    SA must remain resolute in denying those leaving the chance to don the Green & Gold, and if possible, collaborate with the Convicts and Sheep-Shaggers in mitigating the poaching by the bloody colonialist pigs.

  • Comment 51, posted at 02.06.10 17:43:23 by Big Fish Reply
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  • BF good day mate

    thats a harsh call as its a professional era, but in saying that if the policy is not to play over seas based players , stick to it , dont then when you have a problem run to them

    to me thats also where the problem came in re steyn

    fact is after the world cup we will lose a huge amount of top players , as they are earning a living , why deny them ?

    but again if the policy is not to include them , then leave them be to live out the choices they made

  • Comment 52, posted at 02.06.10 18:41:12 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • 137. wing_14(wing_14) :
    June 2nd, 2010 at 6:42 pm
    Butch James now set to face Wales after all
    Jun 2 2010 By Delme Parfitt, WalesOnline
    Add a commentRecommend Butch James is set to be re-instated in the Springboks side to face Wales on Saturday, in an extraordinary fresh twist.

    The Bath fly-half, who had been selected at inside-centre to face Warren Gatland’s men, was reported to have been formerly withdrawn from the Boks squad on Thursday morning after objections to him playing were raised by Premier League Rugby, the umbrella organisation for Guinness Premiership clubs.

    PRL has a blanket policy of not releasing players for Tests not governed by the IRB’s regulation on player release, and the June 5 Millennium Stadium date falls outside the window.

    But now, following high level talks between PRL and the South African Rugby Union, which the Welsh Rugby Union were kept fully informed of, James, it seems, is set to play after all.

    He will line up at inside-centre with Francois Steyn moved back to No15.

    In a further development, South Africa could pitch World Cup winning second row Victor Matfield into the starting line-up to face Warren Gatland’s side in place of foot-injury victim Andries Bekker.

    Matfield joins the squad on Friday and, in Bekker’s absence, the Springboks could decide they need his experience and expertise.

  • Comment 53, posted at 02.06.10 18:53:52 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • if you let overseas players play for their national teams rugbys going to become like soccer and when that happens southern hemisphere rugby will be worthless and the frans steyn and butch james incidents will become the norm and playing for the springboks will be a right rather than a privilage like frans steyn seems to think it is and the players agents will b more powerfull .and I have no faith in the southern hemisphere bosses finding a good solution

  • Comment 54, posted at 02.06.10 19:27:41 by zvision10 Reply

    zvision10Under 21 player
     
  • @zvision10 (Comment 54) :

    I tend to agree with that.

  • Comment 55, posted at 02.06.10 19:29:12 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 52) :
    Hi S-L.

    I have absolutely no problem with players going abroad to earn more – that is any human being’s right, and who is to judge?

    I am just saying that we should send them on their way with a smile and a wave, and then ensure that the guys in SA are the only one’s to play for the Boks – as mentioned further by zvision, failure to do so will result in the watering down of local rugby, resulting in weaker Bok teams in the future.

  • Comment 56, posted at 02.06.10 19:46:28 by Big Fish Reply
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  • @Big Fish (Comment 56) : BF i agree but like i said they were told they would not beable to play for the boks whilst overseas , yet PDiv calls them up again

    my problem is not they they can or cant

    if your policy is not to play over seas based players then show back bone AND STICK to it

    and it already started last year in the end of year tour of the uk

  • Comment 57, posted at 02.06.10 20:35:50 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • and some news in that was on sabc late edition news is that brussow and bosman are going to the sharks

  • Comment 58, posted at 02.06.10 20:38:03 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • @sharks_lover (Comment 57) :

    Why dish out new caps to players way down the pecking order when you are resting S14 players if you have previously capped boks overseas?

    Those o/seas boks will only be available for ONE game. I would rather do that than dish out caps to undeserved players.

  • Comment 59, posted at 02.06.10 20:41:10 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 59) : hi KSA

    i am for playing them over seas players , my problem is the guys are annoyed at the steyns or james’s

    like i said before , i am against the policy if its only there to be broken

    pdivs policy was we will not select over seas based players , but as soon as he had a problem he ran to them , like now

    and supporters then bad mouth the likes of steyn or butch

    to me its simple , if the policy is you cant choose over seas players then stick to your own rules

    or play the professional game

    its either we can or we cant

  • Comment 60, posted at 02.06.10 20:45:56 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • and BF my response to the bok team will be watered down i dont fully agree

    fact is in europe they can only take so many players , and only a matter of time before they see it will weaken their own sqauds and buy less of our players

    there is already talk in france that there is to many foreigners in their league

  • Comment 61, posted at 02.06.10 20:48:22 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • what saru needs to do is state what the law is and live by it

  • Comment 62, posted at 02.06.10 20:49:29 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • you will also find if the law stays you cannot play for the boks if you are based O/seas , they will mostly sign shorter conracts

    like after the worl,d cup they will sign 2 year contracts and try come back for the 2 years prior to the next world cup

  • Comment 63, posted at 02.06.10 20:51:29 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • @sharks_lover (Comment 60) : I think when it comes to these NH games and especially end of year tours the Springboks should have as many as possible NH based players selected, by doing that we’ll never have to watch another under strength Bokke team play ever again.

    For the NH winter tours those guys based over there will be on par with the NH teams’s players, where as the local guys are tired, injured and at the end of their season.

    For the local and tri-nations games, use locally based players exclusively, thus encouraging the youngsters to stay and measure themselves against the best (the all blacks in particular).

    For the wc, use the best there is on offer from all over the world.

  • Comment 64, posted at 02.06.10 20:57:58 by FireTheLooser Reply

    Assistant coach
     
  • I heard a great suggestion yesterday.

    Let Boks, or players resident or playing in the NH play in NH tests (EOYT) but only allow SA based Boks play in the more important competitions like the 3N and World Cup.

    NH tours are useless anycase.

  • Comment 65, posted at 03.06.10 08:38:06 by Morné Reply
    Author
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 65) : eeeh – I quite like the idea that EOYT are used to groom youngsters. It’s taking them out from the known environment, bit of throwing into deep end but what doesnot kill you will make you stronger.

  • Comment 66, posted at 03.06.10 08:48:27 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 66) :

    Look it is in no way perfect but has so many positive spin-offs.

    Team up youngsters (locally) with the Bok hardebaarde in the UK (who will know the opposition and conditions well) to see if anyone over there is still worth bringing back and rule SH rugby with out best locally based players.

    It is definately plausible.

  • Comment 67, posted at 03.06.10 08:52:43 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 65) : @FireTheLooser (Comment 64) : Great minds think alike ;-)

  • Comment 68, posted at 03.06.10 09:02:06 by FireTheLooser Reply

    Assistant coach
     
  • @Morné (Comment 67) : What do you think of a system where say only 2 overseas based players are allowed in the squad? That should deter a lot of players to leave SA.

  • Comment 69, posted at 03.06.10 09:03:43 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 69) : but still allow the very best to compete for 1 of the 2 spots

  • Comment 70, posted at 03.06.10 09:06:22 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 69) :

    I think there is a lot of possible scenarios with different pro’s and con’s.

    I think a policy to keep the Bok brand exclusive is non-negotiable but as far as the specific policy I would just like them to have one, and stick by it.

  • Comment 71, posted at 03.06.10 09:06:38 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 67) : that does sound better. I am not in favour of letting youngsters completely on their own. – these are still test matches and points count – not to mention pride and all the psychological stuff.
    There still needs to be core of experienced players who will take responsibility.

  • Comment 72, posted at 03.06.10 09:13:36 by rekinek Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 71) : i like the idea of selecting only local based players – but on the other hand there is this principle of free movement – if you are good you are good (should not matter where you play).

  • Comment 73, posted at 03.06.10 09:15:24 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 73) : @rekinek (Comment 73) :

    Should not matter and no-one is standing in the way of players wanting to move, they can go.

    But another factor now also comes into the equation being Bok selection.

    It is our right to exercise that as much as it is European clubs and players looking to move rights to exercise their financial hand.

  • Comment 74, posted at 03.06.10 09:19:43 by Morné Reply
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    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 74) : I agree that you play the cards you are dealt and SARU or coach must use what he has to achieve their goals.

    However, on a certain level it feels pathetic though that you need to dangle Bok carrot to stop players leaving. I know it is a bit unrealistic but with southern hemisphere rugby dominance shouldn’t European players want to be here rather.

  • Comment 75, posted at 03.06.10 09:25:24 by rekinek Reply
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  • @rekinek (Comment 75) :

    Everything is measured in value.

    Either monetary or otherwise.

    We cannot compete on the monetary front, so the value we offer players will be the Bok jersey.

    It then simply depends on what values players rely on in the pro game.

  • Comment 76, posted at 03.06.10 09:30:45 by Morné Reply
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