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Despite all the hysteria, Peter de Villiers was actually spot on. And as much as it pains me to say so, the only call he got wrong in this latest round of selections was to not drop BJ Botha along with the rest of the so-called foreign “stars”.
Looking back at the Bok performance against Wales in the cold hard light of day, it was pretty close to a dog’s breakfast all round, with very few, outside of Juan de Jongh, Danie Rossouw and Dewald Potgieter, really standing out. While one can overlook a less-than-perfect showing from a debutant such as Gio Aplon or Bjorn Basson, you simply cannot afford to be carrying 50-test veterans like CJ van der Linde and Joe van Niekerk as passengers. Not to say that there weren’t locally-based players who were equally pants – the 90-cap duo of John Smit and Victor Matfield among them – but to my mind, to justify their selections, the overseas guys need to be a cut above what’s available in South Africa and in this case, they were just the opposite.
Let’s all get over Frans Steyn already. He’s actually a pretty kak fullback, if we look past the fact that he occasionally puts over a massive drop-goal or long-range penalty. The countless poor, selfish decisions he takes during the other 78 minutes of the game, to my mind, completely negate these random acts of freakish brilliance. About his only real claim to fame is that he’s a better fullback than Zane Kirchner, but then again, so are Joe Pietersen, Pat Lambie and probably even Riaan Viljoen and at least all three of them are willing to bleed and die for South African sides in the Super 14.
Despite his consistently superb form in provincial rugby, BJ Botha has never quite managed to regularly dominate opposition at international level and this was again the case on Saturday. He has been retained in the squad, I feel, simply as a result of the dearth of tighthead props in the South African game, but should view the upcoming outings against France and Italy as probably his last chance to cement a World Cup place – assuming, that is, he returns to South Africa in time for next year’s Super 15.
But as for van Niekerk and van der Linde, well, I say good riddance, although the latter, at least, will probably still fight his way back into contention now that he’s back in South Africa full-time. As for KES’s finest, well, his biggest contribution to the game was the series of F-bombs he dropped on camera after the game, to the shock and embarrassment of the majority of his team-mates. Cheers, Joe, we have more than enough class loosies in this country and, quite frankly, we simply don’t need you.
when bj came on in the 2nd half of the italy Test last year the Boks dominated the opposition after being turbo-reversed the whole day…
The Boks dominated the Irish up until the 58th minute when john smit was moved to tighthead. So Pdv might be looking at getting BJ fine-tuned by Os who he has roped in as a scrum consultant.
@Megatron (Comment 1) : ja, you’re actually right. The two tests last year were the best ones BJ has ever played. He was utterly superb.
But on Saturday, Jannie was better. Never thought I’d say that.
I fully agree, especially about “Big Joe”. I’ve never rated him, because he cannot run straight and his distribution is poor. How PdV thought to start him and not Kanko is beyond me. Even Ashley Johnson would have been a better choice.
@robdylan (Comment 2) : well jannie stood up well this year in the s14 with bissie @ hooker & john at loosehead. Him & guthro have really stepped up to repair their reputations that were shattered by leicester last year.
…Good signing by WP…CJ Van Der Linde…
The guys writing off BJ are the same ones who talked up WP Nel last year.
A new front row that was always going to take time to settle and gel. And after a strange start they got on top. I would have retained them for France. Guthro has been great though. As for Frans Steyn, well he is the 1 st player on my team sheet, although he was poor Saturday, i believe there are underlying issues between him and PDV.
Butch needs the opportunity, and CJ will be back.
By the way, the headline in the Argus last night is
‘Smit ponders his future as next generation Boks shine’.
so thats interesting.
Given the poor build up i believe it was an ‘okay’ performance by the boks.
Think you being harsh here Rob.
I would stick with BJ …..and if he cannot play there is CJ, Jannie and Werner Kruger.
But PDV needs to decide asap and allow the premier front row to gel and create the synergy required.
@rhineshark (Comment 3) : no way, big joe was colossal for the Boks in 2008, kanko wasn’t even in his league (remember kanko was knocked lights out trying to rumble with an italian lock
) Big Joe played a massive role in the Dunedin win, but he didn’t repay the faith peter showed in him, he left for the big money at Toulon.
You’re right, Steyn looked average…if they don’t want to play in SA they they shouldn’t play for SA. So I don’t really see the point in keeping Ruan in the squad. He won’t be selected in the WC squad if he doesn’t come back to SA for the s15 and that would mean he won’t play any rugby for his new club.
Seems we will be stuck with Ricky at SH, he didn’t have his usual useless game, but he kinda reminds me of Kockot…..excellent the one week, absolutely rubbish the next.
@LETGO
Agree with you on Ruan. It wont make much sense in selecting him now if he wont be here for the RWC. On the other hand, he gets so stuffed around in anycase, that he is not even sure of the SH spot now that Fourie is injured. PdV would pick Januarie anyhow!
Someone clearly pissed in Robs cornflakes.
The reality is the team had 5 days to get together, they put together a performance against a team that is at the end of its international season – ie they have been playing as a team.
This website and one begins to suspect all sharks fans are clearly not Frans Steyn fans – but you guys are so blinkered by his performances for the Sharks that you really rule yourselves out of offering an objective opinion.
The man is a world beater – anyway you look at it.
Gio had a great debut – was solid under the high ball, it was his counter attack from a wayward welsh kick that brought us back into the game.
As to Letgo comment about if they don’t play in SA they don’t play for SA is so backward, what other profession puts these kind of restraints on trade. As a profesional rugby player – you should be entitled to play where you want for you want – if your performance warrants National selection – you should be picked.
As to Joe – well he wasn’t the flashest but aside from spilling one high ball – he was fairly useful.
The weakest player on the park was the Captain – Jon Smit – he looks like he could do with a rest – a long one.
Ruan is lost for this World Cup, and maybe even for ever if you think about it. Januarie is over the hill. Why not blood a youngster or a player wh would be able to take over from Fourie once he goes to Japan.
Duvenhage maybe? He looked good for the Stormers during the S14?
@Letgo (Comment 10) : because he has a Bok contract
@Richard Ferguson (Comment 14) : Not Duvenhage. He doesn’t have the kicking game yet – he is to hot and cold. He has potential. Just not yet.
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 16) : Who then? Im not in favour of Kockott, he is very selfish and our backline won’t get any ball.
Do we have anybody other than Januarie? What about Sarel Pretorius?
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 13) : it is not about restriction of trade, it is about protecting the asset that is SA Rugby, if all players are allowed to just go &chase money overseas it will devalue our currie cup & put a strain on our super rugby franchises. Go and read Morne’s article posted last week & understand it fully!
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 13) :
Genuine question, how many games has Wales played in the last 3 months?
@Ollie (Comment 19) :
Nevermind, found it on their site, 2.5 months ago at the end of the 6N, since then their players have been involved in club games. 2.5 months is a bit of time with a lot of other rugby in between. One could argue that they also had to re-gel
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 13) : to put it in layman’s terms for you if our player were allowed to play overseas, in the super14 final there would’ve been no matfield (toulon) bakkies (france) gary botha (harlequins), wynand olivier, for the bulls, their places would’ve been taken by flip vd merwe, willem steenkamp or fudge mabeta & instead of gary you would have maku or chiliboy or derick kuun…
For the stormers, no jaque fourie, habana instead it would’ve been frikkie welsh @ 13 & naqelevuki @ wing, now see this from the sponsor’s point of view…the game would’ve been watered down!
@Megatron (Comment 21) :
There wouldn’t be a professional Rugby player left in NZ !
@robdylan (Comment 2) : Come on Rob…lets take a look at Super14 Pace, and then link it to test Rugby…The thing is, if you play Aus or NZ- you will certainly see if a player is off the pace(if you have a Super rugby reff)…but playing the Northern Hemisphere-there where a Couple of Super 14 players who looked ‘of the pace’….and taking in to account that we patched that team together to face the welsh with all the controversy of last weak….There should not even be a discussion about super 14 pace…PDV is not going to come to grips with Couching a NEW look BOK team if his senior players get rested…Frans Steyn’s Live is Rugby and the Bok jersey, there is some other Questions to be asked, like what is up with PDV and Frans Steyn…and why would Frans trade the Bok jersey…PDV is of the Pace…especially with his players…
@BoerSeun (Comment 23) : If Frans Steyn’s life was rugby and the Bok jersey, he would not gone overseas. He would have stuck it out in S.A, even if not for the Sharks. He gave S.A rugby the middle finger. And on his form on Saturday, he doesn’t deserve the fullback any more than Joe Pieterson, Zane Kirchner or even Pat Lambie.
@Megatron (Comment 9) : Nah, mate.
Bar a few good performances he hasn’t impressed as a complete number 8. But that’s just me – I also don’t rate Spies for exactly the same reasons, such as too often losing the ball in the tackle, poor ball distribution, and in Joe’s case running sideways.
I just mentioned Kanko, because he was on the bench. My first choice 8th man for the Boks would be Alberts when he’s fit with Duane Vermeulen on the bench.
@Richard Ferguson (Comment 17) : Its actually a weak point in SA at the moment with Ruan heading overseas. Ricky might well be the man. Maybe some rugby might help his game – just a pity he is going to have to do it at international level
@Ollie (Comment 19) : They just played the 6 Nations
@Megatron (Comment 21) : So what – if you get a good job offer somewhere else you go. Players are no different from anyone else – in fact a shorter career means you take care of cash before anything else.
As to players going – so what – those that genuinely want to play in RWC will come home in time to make the team.
As to players leaving in SA we have the dpeth, you guys can just pillage the islands for another crop of talented players as the current lot you are producing are rubbish – so they wouldn’t really be a loss to NZ
@Richard Ferguson (Comment 24) : Okey Fair / lets say Frans got up one day and spontaneously said SCREW the Sharks, and Bok Rugby…what happen to drive the boy to that…And Come on-LAMBIE IS NO BOK (YET!!)
And Joe…Joe is no BOK-even Joe knows that, or he would of knocked at the lions door and played Jantjies and Kirchner out of the team…Kirchner is a awesome player/but we need Frans Steyn/ the Sharks offered Olivier and Habana Crazy Money a Couple of years Ago…but never gave our boys the same Options before leaving for Frans…Like Pienaar-what’s up with him and Plum???
@Hertford Highlander (Comment 22) : I was pleased to see SBW turned down Toulon to go back to NZ. I might not be so pleased when he is kicking Bok midfield butt.
@lostfish (Comment 28) :
I don’t think it is a done deal….but looks like he will play for Counties in the NPC and may even be a Crusader along with Izzie Dagg in the Super 15
9 Ellis
10 Carter
12 Sonny Bill Williams
13 Freaun
11 Maitland
14 Guildford
15 Dagg
….just make it the AB backline for the RWC….easy !
Rob I think you’re a bit harsh on BJ and CJ(even though I’ve never been a big fan off CJ’s) The refs handeling of the scrums were k@k to say the least. I’m no scrum expert but the Boks were never allowed a decent hit in the Wales game. Eventually the frontrowers were basically just bending down and binding and all and all the scrums were a shambles.
On the issue of Frans Steyn he might not have been great on Saturday but he also hasn’t played fullback much recently. He does however bring THE BOOT and I recon that will be invalueable come next years RWC. Remember the Tri Nations last year. Even Richie McCaw said that it’s so difficult playing against a player that can punish you anywhere from your own 10 m line. His boot puts doubts in the opposition players and that alone is worth a lot.
@Hertford Highlander (Comment 29) : Whats the deal with Sonny Bill – the amount of news the boy generates you would think he is a wonder boy? Is he any good?
Steyn looked pedestrian but fullback is not his best position. He is far better at centre.
Joe was not able to transform his club form into anything for the Boks. Perhaps it was the pressure and he was trying too hard.
It is a pity that Little Joe moved overseas as he deserves to be in the team ahead of Kirchner.
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 31) : I was wondering the same thing. Before his apparent move BACK to NZ I’ve never heard of him before. Where did I miss him?
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 31) : He is good and he is still raw in Union, he runs great lines, can cause chaos in defense, he breaks tackles and his defense while needs improvement isn’t too shabby.
He has turned down a MASSIVE offer from Toulon and would only get about a quarter of the amount from the NZRU – still would be one of the highest paid by the NZRU.
@lostfish (Comment 34) : Thanks – be interesting to see him play.
@Pokkel (Comment 33) : Perhaps you don’t see much of the Top 14?? He is massive for Toulon.
@lostfish (Comment 36) : Has he ever played for the All Blacks?
@lostfish (Comment 36) : I never saw any Top 14……he must be pedestrian too then??
@Pokkel (Comment 37) : Not yet.
@lostfish (Comment 39) : He must be very highly regarded then because the AB’s don’t have a shortage of quality centre’s. I’d like to see him play. Has he played any Super rugby? How old is he?
@Pokkel (Comment 38) : lol, most of the French team play Top 14 and they are pedestrian enough to beat the Boks at home and away for the past few years.
@Hertford Highlander (Comment 29) : SBW playes 13
@Pokkel (Comment 40) : They all injured. Nonu, Smith , Khaui, McAlistar ( i think ) They scraping the barrel of theri stocks hence the interest in SB
@Pokkel (Comment 40) : 24 I think. He hasn’t played super rugby, he used to play league in Aus. Look on youtube for him playing for Toulon.
Ok so now I heard a lot about this oke….now looking forward to seeing him play
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Bill_Williams
check this link for his stats.
He is also a professionla boxer?!?!
That should count for a lot!!
@BoerSeun (Comment 42) : SBW is a tool!!! he is not better than Nonu, Smith , Khaui, McAlistar, Toeava or sTANLEY…i WOULD EVEN PLAY MILLS at 13 before him with dagg/Jane @ 15…SBW is a rumour….
even Carter @ 12 and Crewden at 10 is a better option…SBW is a BOFFF….NOT A BALL PLAYER- HOW ABOUT B A BARACAS for mialamu @ 2!
@Richard Ferguson (Comment 47) : haha so was Mike Tyson – how about lining him up for a ball game- SBW is not going to be a AB, or not soon…Nick Evens can add a lot of experience to players like LAMBIE…
@BoerSeun (Comment 48) : Ek sien jy’s weer aant gille vandag!
I think Pdiv is making some harsh decisions based on a few days practise and 80 minutes. We need Frans Steyn and at centre. Again he’s been judged out of position. I don’t think u realise how valuable he could be…
Richard – ur statement about playing overseas does not make u a true Bok is about the most sh*t I have heard today-and believe me I hear a lot each day. Its a job he’s doing..you won’t go for the big money if you knew ur time was limited in a specific job?? Common , you can’t be seriuous?? It’s a joke, right?…RIGHT?
@Ice (Comment 50) : A shark who supports Frans Steyn
@Ice (Comment 50) : My statement was that if Frans Steyn’s life revolved around S.A Rugby and wearing the Bok jersey, then he would not have moved. If it is clear, and Pdiv made it very clear, that if you not in the country, you won’t get picked.
I understand professional sport and I’m more than happy that players go overseas, but not if you want to play for the Boks.
I would take a big paying job overseas anyday, but not if that job meant I would never reach the top honour in my profession.
@Richard Ferguson (Comment 52) : it was never a clearcut case – Pdiv said if he needs the overseas players he’ll select them, and Steyn’s agent made sure it was in his contract that RM will release him for national duty…
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 51) : here fishy,fishy!! Hook, line and sinker!! Seriously, looking at Swannie, Strauss…what shark in his right mind would not be a Steyn fan??
@Ice (Comment 50) :
Frans Steyn is nowhere near as good a centre as JDV and we also have De Jongh who looks to be a very talented centre.
Frans is needed at 15 but hy dink mos hy is groter as die span.
I don’t have much time for him cos his attitude stinks!!
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 13) : What other profession??? Well…if you want to take it out of the context of sport it would be hard to get a good example, as the profession of sport and any other business runs on very different principals. But having said that, if I was or had a big company, with many branches throughout South Africa (which in this case will compare to provincial rugby) and another big companies from England or France or even South Africa in this case, with more money, starts buying my best workers out from under me. I would like to find a way to keep my best workers, in order to insure that these branches across South Africa keeps making the best profit they can possibly make. If I had something like the Boks, I would certainly use that as leverage to keep those people in my business.
If you let every player go, and believe me, once you start selecting them for the boks while they are playing abroad, all of the top players will stream out of SA. Once you loose the high profile players, you will slowly, but surely loose the support. And to prove my point we have the S14 and the CC. S14 – Full stadiums, teams full of Boks, quality rugby, CC – not even half full stadiums, no Boks, at times average rugby.
Why would you want to risk the already fragile state of SA provincial rugby by giving our top players the licence to leave.
@Ice (Comment 53) :
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 13) : @Letgo (Comment 55) : …and by the way, I’m almost sure, most companies, who has this kind of leverage on their best employees would do it exactly like SA rugby is trying to do it. If you can’t keep them with money, you’re going to try to use something else. Location, privileges, contacts, gifts, season tickets to their favorite teams games.
The thing is, in other professions most employees are dispensable, it’s when you become important to the company and when other companies makes you better offers, that leverage or Springbok selection will be necessary to use.
@Megatron (Comment 21) : Good, short and sweet answer…I have to learn how to do that.
@Letgo (Comment 55) : Sort of a fair point – but i disagree. The reality is there are only so many
places at foreigh clubs – so if all the big players leave – those places get filled up and there are no more places available.
Lets be honest – no player – plays overseas for the experience of the country – it’s the moooooola.
My real point about this is why should SARU dictate to players where they can or cannot play? – they the ones being ambivalent about it –
they say we don’t pick foreign based players and then pick them. Div is an idiot and has been since he took over on this matter.
They made the mess. Besides 99% of the players playing overseas left because they weren’t going to get picked for the Boks and they knew it –
so why earn Rands when you can earn pounds.
Simple maths – the sheer fact that we speak about these players as potential boks is becasue once they were out of our system we started acknowledging
that maybe they weren’t that kak. ( Sharks excluded on this – they have let Barrit, Steyn and Pienaar go – potentially three amazing backline players
go – and then spent the season whining about the backs and directing the anger at the players not the management )
So i say let them go and if you want to pick them pick them.
As to losing support? Never happen – regardless of how many players we send overseas – we create new stars every year at almost every
)
Union (Lions aren’t so good at this
And also don’t mistake SARU caring about overseas players – this Wlesh test illustrates that they care about the moooola more than they do about player welfare.
So why should the players care otherwise. Players like Vic, Smit & Fourie should never have played this game.
The players are scared to test the will – if our best 22 started playing overseas and the Boks got hammered week in and week out – SARU would change there tune
super quick and the problem would be solved. But alas players don’t seem to think in the collective. They really could dictate to saru if they worked together. But
they don’t becasue not all of them want to leave and not all of them would get a place at a club that would actually pay them there supposed worth.
Suggesting that SA rugby would collapse because of this smacks of idocicy.
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 31) :@BoerSeun (Comment 48) : @Pokkel (Comment 40) :
He is a quality specimen of a man.
In league he was a real ball player….he has found Union slow and forward orientated that has not been to his liking.
….but you have to be surrounded by riches to leave SBW in the wings.
….. he will make waves when in the Black Jersey on the end of year tour.
….he is direct, massive with great skills and can only get better.
….and he hits hard ….really hard.
…..I think they will groom him as an inside centre much in the mould of Nonu.
….all in all a real hand full and will make a wonderful addition to the AB Squad.
…..just hope he signs.
@wpw (Comment 54) : Funny . . a wp supporter who suddenly has a problem when a player has an attitude
Seriously though, I haven`t seen JdV play recently so I can`t say whether he`s better than Frans at the moment. I dunno whether you guys have some idea about his current form.
Then with regards to Steyn, no he`s definately a problem for us. We don`t want to set a president here. Letgo is spot on. The more overseas based players we use, the more local talent we`ll loose.
The fact that Steyn moved to France definately had something to do with the Bokke but the sharks are responsible as well. He said it himself : Too much pressure, when he tried something and it didn`t work out he got the bird from the crowd and in France he`s playing for more money and under less pressure.
I can understand why Snorre doesn`t want to select him now. But come right out and say it. Don`t give me that crap about Crusty being better than Frans…
@wpw (Comment 54) :ag, wat weet jy??
Julle het dalk vir de Jongh…ons het bobberol!
@Original Pierre (Comment 61) : I disagree – the number of places are limited. Its not like we can lose 100 players in a season, max would be 30 odd. And the reality the pull of the Bok is enough to keep people here.
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 63) : We`ll see what happens after world cup 2011. I see a mass exodus . . .
Hopefully led by Strauss
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 63) : Agreed with everything you’ve said today…
@Ice (Comment 62) :
Wat weet ek??
@CS (Comment 65) :
Of course you would. He IS an intelligent Stormers supporter after all.
Is there any other kind??
@wpw (Comment 67) : And yet DESPITE that he still speaks sense
@wpw (Comment 66) : hoe weet jy dit? Het jy proof? Ons het ‘ flatscreen’ by die werk en ‘n yskas vol wyn (drinker)..so moenie te gou praat nie!!
*rushes off to the boss*
@Ice (Comment 69) :
Waarvan praat jy???
@Ice (Comment 69) :
Ek KYK rugby…dis wat ek probeer se…wil net back-up he van die baas..
Jy’s mos alewig aant braai op jou weber..so – wat weet jy??
WHAT KINE HIESO !!! PAGAMIESA !!!
@Ice (Comment 71) :
Ek wag nog vir die Weber!!
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 26) :
Sorry for the late reply, but the 6N finished nearly 3 months ago for Wales. there has been time in between
@Ollie (Comment 74) : True – but not exactly cold like the Boks
@Worcestershire Sauce (Comment 75) :
Not a big difference that would have any big impact I think. I think the Welsh combinations that play together at their clubs would be a bigger difference
@BoerSeun (Comment 27) :
he is a BABY BOK come now a BOK is a BOK if big or small
This isn’t really news but Charl McLeod got married.
@Richard Ferguson (Comment 47) : alot of strenth
@wpw (Comment 73) : dis by my
Let players go wherever they want to – freedom of trade and all that.
But pick Boks only from SA. No coercion in that.
SBW is a hype wrapped in a exaggeration and smothered in hyperbole.
Until he proves otherwise in international rugby.
@Big Fish (Comment 81) : I like SBW, I have seen him play for Toulon quite often and he keeps improving. If he can take his form and improve it on the international stage he will be something to contend with.
Disagree with the opening post. We should be selecting players in Europe, one of those is Frans. Not sure we can afford to keep rebuilding every 2 or 3 years when a player leaves, which is what is happening now. There will be some tough choices after ‘11 RWC and most of the core Bok group move on. We’ll need to establish new long term combos, that wont be possible, with players leaving earlier in their careers and us ignoring them.
We’re in a luxury situation at the moment. where we have most the core group in SA and can choose to add others from outside to make them stronger. Wont always be this way.
@Richard Ferguson (Comment 52) : If Peter “makes it very clear” that when you leave, you wont be a Bok. Then why has he selected overseas players, each year he has been coach? Not guys that are ‘returning’ (well for a season or so, in a window dressing effort) either.
SARU have their own stated policy – “where you pick them from, we don’t care much”. Peter also has his policy “say I wont pick them, but basically make it up as I go”.
CJ and BJ were called up last year for a very good reason – the situation was desperate and an SOS was sent out. Local was not good enough boet. One of those local props, Wian du Preez, is gone now also. Had Frans also been called, at least one of the test losses may have been different.
I think you are correct, Peter doesn’t want to pick overseas based players at all. But at times the situation is critical, so when stuff is breaking he does it. Or rather other leaders/coaches/selectors in the team do. Which is why I’ve no worries Frans will feature again, he has about three ‘god father’ like figures in each decision making part of the team.
What is needed is clear guidelines with players. A grope that know they will feature and proper communication on when they will play. This isn’t happening at the moment – if for example Butch was told this, he may never have resigned at Bath. But instead, just like Joe and others he had no idea. Daan Human even got a letter from SARU asking on availability for Wales, but then never featured.
grope* = group
@Os (Comment 83) :
If the players realise that they are not irreplaceable then they will stop leaving eavery 2 or 3 years. Div was 100% correct when he made the comments that the Euro players are below par. That way they will realise they need to stay in SA.
*sigh*