A nice and juicy derby to finish of the action today.
Although I believe Cheetahs to be pretty lean therefore there will be very little juice flowing around while they are being slaughtered. I predict the Bulls win by “sommer baie”
Oh and after some investigation, I have decided I set the standards for myself waaaaaay to high. I flippen got 5 out of 7 predictions correct last weekend!!!!!! So you guys should believe what I say in the future!!!! Well on 71,4% of the occasions anyway.
And I will award 100 SW points to the 1st person who answer the following question closest correctly. After the umpteen scrum infringements for which the Cheetahs were blown up last week. Are the Cheetahs giving Craig Joubert a chance to prove himself or is Craig Joubert giving the Cheetahs a chance to prove themselves?
Ref: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
ARs: Marius Jonker (South Africa), Christie du Preez (South Africa)
Venue: Free State stadium – Bloemfontein
Kick-off: 19:10 RSA time
Cheetahs: 15 Hennie Daniller, 14 Philip Burger, 13 Robert Ebersohn, 12 Andries Strauss, 11 Ryno Benjamin, 10 Naas Olivier (vice-captain), 9 Sarel Pretorius, 8 Kabamba Floors, 7 Juan Smith (captain), 6 Frans Viljoen, 5 Wilhelm Steenkamp, 4 Waltie Vermeulen, 3 WP Nel, 2 Rayno Barnes, 1 Coenie Oosthuizen.
Replacements: 16 Skipper Badenhorst, 17 Kobus Calldo, 18 Francois Uys, 19 Ashley Johnson, 20 Tewis de Bruyn, 21 Sias Ebersohn, 22 Riaan Viljoen.
Bulls: 15 Zane Kirchner, 14 Gerhard van den Heever, 13 Jaco Pretorius, 12 Wynand Olivier, 11 Bjorn Basson, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Fourie du Preez, 8 Pierre Spies, 7 Dewald Potgieter, 6 Deon Stegmann, 5 Victor Matfield (captain), 4 Bakkies Botha, 3 Werner Kruger, 2 Chiliboy Ralepelle, 1 Gurthrö Steenkamp.
Replacements: 16 Derick Kuün, 17 Rossouw de Klerk, 18 Flip van der Merwe, 19 Danie Rossouw, 20 Ruan Snyman, 21 Francois Brummer, 22 Stephan Dippenaar.
Definately craig joubert giving them the chance to prove themselves…even the cheetahs admitted they looked at their scrums and rectified it..100points for me…yes pls
Answer: Both and Neither
Go Cheetahs!!
new thread
i thought the game was at 5pm but it is only 7pm. well i guess i may just manage to watch it.
it depends on the weather… i will give my answer on monday…
just looking at the log so highlanders leading nicely the NZ conference (unlikely blues will win tomorrow) and if tahs loose to reds than the aussie conference wide open.
Kickoff at 7?
i wouldn’t mind cheetahs upset win, but will not hold my breath.
Bulls by 15 points. Basson to get a brace. Just saying.
Gooooooo cheeeeeeetaaaaaaahsssssssss!!!!
cheetahs, blues and Lions to win, will leave 8 players left in lms
Bad news boys. Steven Sykes to leave at the end of the Super season. Off to Ireland. Not such a big loss. He’s a bit of a marshmellow.
Vodacom cup. Cheetahs 15 Valke 0 after 12 mins.
@Speed7 (Comment 12) : And where did you hear that?
@Speed7 (Comment 12) : Yes where did you hear this? Haven’t seen news about it anywhere!?
Can’t divulge too much.
. Through an agent. You heard it here first.
Someone please help me here I’ve got this guys name on my tongue but can’t put a finger on it. Who’s the guy that playd wing for the cheetahs with eddie fredericks on the other wing. About 5 years ago?
Fabian Juries. Danwell Demas ?
Oh 5 years ago ?
@Speed7 (Comment 18) : Before them?
Gavin Passens.
@Speed7 (Comment 21) : Yes that’s him! THANKS A LOT!
Cheetahs 48
Valke 12
73 mins
Full time
Cheetahs 55
Valke 19
Phillip Burger wont play tonight, tight calf muscle
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 25) : kak bang if you ask me.
Bulls will win this one. If they lose then bugger I will have 0 from 3 today on bru. Doubt they will lose, it rather by how much they will win. I have them by 14.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 26) : Nah then he would never have played against the sharks!
@Ben (Comment 28) :
He THOUGHT we might be beatable, he KNOWS the Bulls aren’t.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 29) : good thing he didn’t try to tackle Mvovs!
Players about to take the field
Whats up with the bikers?
Typical Freestate PR1CKS
Not bothering to show respect during the moment of silence. Ashamed to have gone to school there.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 33) : I was born there and now I live there
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 34) :
Where you at? I was in Kroonstad.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 35) : Sasolburg
Craig Joubert is no Marius Jonker after 2 PKs in 1min against the Bulls he calls Victor Matfield over and tells him “no more”
Olivier slots the PK and the Cheetahs lead.
Cheetahs 3 – 0 Bulls
2min
JUAN SMIT OFF.
Smith is off already
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 36) :
Hey I enjoy SASOL but it’s not part of the OFS is it. OIL numberplate but falls in the old TVL doesn’t it.
I won a few athletic and Cross Country events at Sasol in my day
Hehehehehehe very first scrum and the Cheetahs get penalised again.
I think the Cheetahs need to proof themselves to Joubert
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 41) :
Somebody almost tackled Craig. “I’m glad you pulled out of it, if you didn’t pull out of it I was in trouble….but i’m a tough oke as well”
@KSA Shark © (Comment 39) : Nope its Freestate, but it falls under Vaal Triangle.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 39) : Strangest track in SA. very short straights with looooong wiiiiide corners.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 43) :
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 44) :
Ahhhhh that’s what it is.
11min
Cheertahs 3 – 0 Bulls
LO Bulls 7m from Cheetahs line
@KSA Shark © (Comment 39) : And by the way the OIL number plates has been gone for ages
Matfield grubbers through and it goes dead again. Didn’t i see this happen last week?
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 49) :
so have I. I left in 1986.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 51) : SA or FS?
Bakkies try!
Toulon Botha scores a try!!!
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 52) :
FS.
SA in 2001 (but return twice a year)
Steyn misses the conversion
Cheetahs 3 – 5 Bulls
18min
Olivier misses a shot at goal
Cheetahs 3 – 5 Bulls
22min
@KSA Shark © (Comment 55) : I’ve never left SA, went to Namibia once many moons ago. I do leave FS on a daily basis though
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 58) :
I answered the question about Tweeter Lanning being fired on the cricket thread BTW.
Steyn gets his 1st conversion in 3 attempts.
Cheetahs 3 – 8 Bulls
26min
@KSA Shark © (Comment 59) : Noticed and replied
Strauss try!
Andries Strauss TRY!!!!!!!!
Bjorn Basson POOR in defence on Strauss there.
Olivier misses
Cheetahs 8 – 8 Bulls
28min
Cheetahs for LMS
Bulls for FL and SB
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 65) :
NOOOOOOOO!!!!! I have the Bulls on LMS.
Olivier misses another
Cheetahs 8 – 8 Bulls
32min
Naas and Steyn are kicking like sh!t tonight
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 68) :
thank goodness i got Giteau as my Captain.
(he was just as kak)
@KSA Shark © (Comment 66) : Dont know which competition I’d like to win more, maybe I’ll take both
@KSA Shark © (Comment 69) : I think Barnes is mine. W’tahs better win tomorrow.
And the Cheetahs on attack in the Bulls 22 with the put in at the scrum Engage early and give away a FK..
Matfield Early tackle on Pretorius.
Olivier going at goal from the Bulls’ 10m line
I have to say the Cheetahs look like the better team out there.
Olivier slots it
Cheetahs 11 – 8 Bulls
38min
Tip no1: Stick something in your nose and you’ll nail your kicks everytime.
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 74) :
And THAT is the jinx “I” didn’t want to make.
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 76) :
reminds me of the advert where the guy brings the bucket of sane on to help the kicker with his balance.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 77) :
HALF TIME
Cheetahs 11 – 8 Bulls
Matfield queries a PK by Joubert and Joubert loses patience and tunes Matfield “That’s my call. Cheers”
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 79) :
Maybe Joubert IS proofing himself to the Cheetahs
So what is the real answer?
@KSA Shark © (Comment 80) : that was classic! LOL
I mentioned that if the game is a bit scrappy that it would favour The Cheetahs… However; the penalty count is what is making this game scrappy – its physical, its scrappy, its untidy – yep; its a derby between The Cheetahs and The Bulls…
The kicking has been atrocious, and The Cheetahs have lost Juan Smith – and another loosie Frans Viljoen – it hasn’t seen to effect them too much as A.Johnson is looking like a complete footballer…
Andries Strauss good try – I am hoping for a second bolter (after the Rebels victory), but reckon The Bulls will close the game out in the second half…
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 82) :
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 84) :
don’t be tooooooo surprised to see a Bulls YC. matfield is querying everything and The bulls are being pinged a lot. Joubert will say “enough” soon.
@Ice (Comment 83) : Did you hear Craig Joubert call himself a tough oke earlier in the game… He’s got that whole Tom Cruise thing going… But standing next to pro rugby players – well tough not so much…
@KSA Shark © (Comment 86) : Yep Cheers, here’s a yellow…
2nd half on the go.
Great play Sarel Pretorius to launch the second half…
Ebersohn TRY!!!!!!!
TRY TRIME!!!! Ebershon – do we sense another bolter?
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 90) :
excellent grubber that and the Bulls only just escaped there.
KSA, your predictions in your match threads are the opposite of the final results. You’ve managed to get it wrong twice. Will it be third time lucky or will it be 3 from 3 WRONG?
Naas converts – The Bulls need to step it up…
Olivier slots the conversion
Cheetahs 18 – 8 Bulls
43min
This game is going to get dirty now.
Any bulls loss is worth celebrating, but i need to save my superbru!
@KSA Shark © (Comment 93) : I do sense a YC coming sir – he (ref) is losing his patience with the transgressions
Joubert: Okay. This is now a warning, another penalty and……
Matfield: Can I just ask you something?
Joubert: Not right now, take that message please
Ag please not a 3rd defeat in SB!!
DD – I missed that!
Timotei is getting annoyed
Alright guys, I am out… Comments to come after the game – type and watch not so easy… Catch you all at the end of the game… GO CHEETAHS!
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 94) :
that’s the way I started last week (I think) and ended with 5/7
@KSA Shark © (Comment 103) : Right now I’m looking at 0 from 3
Ashley Johnson over. going upstairs to the TMO.
Well I can’t go, its not easy like that – especially with another try possibly on the cards…
That is a try… YEP -
THAT is a try despite FdP shaking his head trying to convince the AR.
TRY awarded.
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 106) :
Lets just confirm that score… 23 – 3 to THE CHEETAHS!
conversion hits the upright and doesn’t go over
Cheetahs 23 – 8 Bulls
48min
Holy sheit! Is the devil loose in Bloem?
Cheetahs lead by 15 points
Phase 7 & Turnover – Steggman is a valuable asset…
Now do they try set up a try or go for the points? I tell you what Ashley Johnson should’ve started this game in hindsight… I think we will see a score from this movement…
Spies tunes Joubert about what I can only presume are repeated infringements in the Cheetahs 22 and Joubert tunes him. “it’s the 1st time you’ve been here this entire half”
@KSA Shark © (Comment 111) : Yeah, 8 – thats what I said…
– 
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 116) :
NOPE, no score.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 117) :
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 118) :
Cheetahs need to maintain discipline, that could be the decided at the end of the day… Big Danie coming on…. Die bliksem slot is back…
Cheetahs yellow!
Ag no – there it is – the discipline… a YC to Cheetahs…
YC to the Cheetahs for repeated infringements.
test of character now.
Steyn tries a fancy move with the hands and knocks it on 7m from the Cheetahs line.
Yes! turnover conceded… Spies is clearly not a flyhalf… Spies with ball in hand, or wannabe Zinzan Brooke… Hmmmm….
Spies just went down the Bok pecking order.
Great defensive effort by Cheetahs so far….
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 127) :
Was that Spies or Steyn?
TURNOVER!!!!
On the Cheetahs line and they take the Ball off the Bulls.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 130) : Spies… Seriously…
Look its my favourite player Derick Kuun…
The Ever likeable Kuun on for Stegmann
So the Sharks are teaching the other teams that ball-in-hand is the way to win games
60min
Cheetahs 23 – 8 Bulls
This game could become a cracker… Its going down to the wire… Deserved a bigger turnout… BRB need a Windhoek… Great advertising on the site…
And Steyn Butchers an almost certain try by knocking on 8m from the Cheetahs line.
Viljoen in at center for Strauss??????????
I hope that if the Bulls lose tonight, that it’s the last of the upsets for the round.
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 138) :
Are you over 18?
and i went with the lions for the upset of the weekend.
Steyn breaks and then passes forward in the tackle to save the Cheetahs.
I say ‘You may award the try’
Johnson undoes all the goodwork by a STUPID scoop off the base of the scrum.
Danie Over. TMO
@KSA Shark © (Comment 143) :
long time ago…
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 146) : Not so sure.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 147) : Yep is this a try… TMO confirms… Is this a turnaround – Strauss will be a loss…
8 point margin
@KSA Shark © (Comment 147) : Yep, Basics first in the dangerzone…
Try Awarded.
Steyn converts
Cheetahs 23 – 15 Bulls
64min
Yes, this is going to the wire, still think the Bulls will take… I think… hmmm
AJ MOTM so far 4 me!
Cheetahs YC (Wilhelm Steenkamp) comes back on.
Welcome back Wilhelm
@Ice (Comment 155) : if it wasn’t for that scoop off the base giving the Bulls the try I’d agree.
Steyn slots a PK
Cheetahs 23 – 18 Bulls
68min
@KSA Shark © (Comment 147) : Yip, that gave the Bulls a try there. Very stupid of Johnson.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 158) : The Bulls engine is ticking slowly over, maintain that Bulls will take it… Too composed – slow poison coming up…
5 points and 11 mins in it.
Bulls want to camp in the 22…
71min
Cheetahs 23 – 18 Bulls
72min
Bulls on attack 5m out
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 161) :
Unfortunately i agree. The Cheetahs Subs came on early due to injury and the legs are tired.
Come on Cheetahs – defend that line… Turnover – Cheetahs breathe…
Early Engage on their own 5m Line by the Cheetahs giving away a FK
DON’T THEY FRIKKEN LEARN!!!!!!!!!!!
5 points 5 minutes
Cheetahs win a new scrum and knock it on
bulls scrum 5m from Cheetahs line
74m
@KSA Shark © (Comment 165) : Yep, the boon is Bulls depth on bench…
Adv Bulls 5m out
Red asb net vir Wynie, Bulls! Die maan gaan ‘n hartaanval kry!
76min
8 phases
Adv still on
FdP TRY!!!
And there it is… Sustained pressure = points…
I feel sorry for the Cheetahs, what a game by them
Steyn makes no mistake.
Cheetahs 23 – 25 Bulls
78min
Fitness Fitness Fitness Depth Depth Depth… This is the decisive difference (oh and 15 Boks in the blue)
I have Bulls by 7
79min Cheetahs have possesion in the Bulls half
Horrible kick – game over…
Cheetahs go for a DG and miss by a mile
FULL TIME
Cheetahs 23 – 25 Bulls
Well done Bulls
Atleast I got a win and a margin point.
If the perennial underachievers Lions and Cheetahs can both run the bulls this close they ARE beatable.
@KSA Shark © (Comment 184) : The Pumas and Kings must have shaken their confidence
@KSA Shark © (Comment 184) : That they are… Grant Fox on NZ rugby show says Bulls are defensively weak, and points can be scored against them… You need to prevent them from playing their game… They are beatable… I agree…
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 183) :
i’m still ALIVE!!!!!!
@Ice (Comment 155) : Yep AJ MOTM… Good on you!
I dig how AJ wears that cap…
@KSA Shark © (Comment 187) : What’s your pick for next week? A Bye?
Okay American Chopper is on. Night all.
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 190) :
I dunnooooooooo we’ll have to seeeeeeee.
And thats it, win is a win is a win… Points matter on the log. No cigars for losers…
I’m out for the night. Have a good one y’all
@KSA Shark © (Comment 191) : Cheers KSA
@Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 194) : Cheers!
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 188) : I know my rugby!
@Ice (Comment 197) : Hahahaha!!! That was never in question…
Well good evening all – @Ice (Comment 197) : Good evening Ms. Rugbypedia…
Can’t believe the cheetahs through that game away! Idiots
@Ben (Comment 200) : Threw!
@KSA Shark © (Comment 184) : They are certainly beatable. And MARK my words right now, the bulls will not do well this season and they won’t make the semis. I said it before. But mark my words.
@Ben (Comment 200) : Many will criticize The Bulls for two close games against “lesser” opposition – but its a new season, and the “lesser” opposition have improved their skill set – I can’t criticize The Bulls, because they have got 2 from 2 and its this that keeps them there and there about – thats what makes them so good, they strangle the opposition… The Cheetahs always had to score more points to realistically keep The Bulls at bay. But on that note, definitely a sad loss bud.
@Ben (Comment 202) : Yep, they are beatable, of that there is no doubt… They will be competitive this season, but I think will find their overseas trip a little tough…
@DarkDestroyer (Comment 204) : I predict they will fininsh 3rd in the SA conference.
Tragic loss
@Ben (Comment 202) : Dont agree they will up the tempo ,they need to realise that Potgieter and stegman are average ,play rossouw
@Talent (Comment 206) : You don’t have to agree juts mark my words. So if the bulls do well you can give me shit and if they don’t you can give me credit!
@Ben (Comment 207) : haha okay deal, i still think they will top sa conference
ahead of the sharks
@Talent (Comment 208) : Should I mark your words?
Any darn team is beatable – even the Champs. The Bulls traditionally start off slowly, so at this stage two away wins is something to build on!
bet on them ,it makes sense doesnt it?
Must say vdh ,i would stick him in an sa jersey soon if i was pdv
Why are we talking about the bulls this much!? Arggggggggh…sorry I just threw up in my mouth a bit! Let’s talk some real rugby!
haha the cheetahs displayed something in tonights match i havnt seen in a while ,it was almost poetic lol
They displayed more heart than i have seen in any team recently
@Talent (Comment 214) : Can’t undrrstand why they didn’t start the game with Ashley Johnson!
yeah he is seriously good ,but frans viljoen smith and floors ae also top class hard rugby players
What i dont understand is why the cheetahs coaches changed the front row ??Becuase that is what turned the game around
their 2nd choice front rowers are probably only just better than the stormers front row!!!
@Ben (Comment 213) : Cause usually “some” people always have to talk about the Bulls (albeit negatively)eg My team is so great, but the Bulls did this or that. Or my team scored a great try, but the Bulls play negative rugby rofl
PS – Luke is that you….
@Talent (Comment 216) : Kabamba isn’t close to as good as Ashley dude.
@Talent (Comment 217) : Thats no maybe…… Certainly gave us a run for our money. Hope Juan is OK – think he was brought back too soon
@diablo (Comment 218) : Did I say any of those things about your team???
@Ben (Comment 213) : I agree with you Ben, don’t think it’s going to be the year for the chaps from Pretoria (my hometown) who wear blue and who we’re not talking about any more. There’s something there in their team that’s not quite lekker and I can’t put my finger on what it is… they fought back well, but the Cheetahs made them look like a schoolboy XV before they did. A rare occurence.
@SharonvanWyk (Comment 222) : I think it could be a lack of passion. They simply don’t want to win badly enough! Thanks, someone who actually agrees with me!
@Ben (Comment 219) : have a look at the game closely again some time ,floors was everywhere tonight also maybe the plan was to have johsno as an impact player
@Talent (Comment 224) : I didn’t say kabamba is shit dude. I’m saying Ashley is better…
@diablo (Comment 220) : Yeah bulls will be better .
Have you guys heard that the bulls hand out supliments to their players/roids to spies …and the cheetahs hand out unmixed concrete
@Ben (Comment 223) : You’ve nailed it. They are playing by the numbers and clinically, not passionately. They’re too well fed and nowhere near hungry enough…
@SharonvanWyk (Comment 227) : Yeah what is it now? 3 super comps in the last 4 years that they have won? What else do they need to prove is their attitude I think.
@Ben (Comment 221) : No, and you may have misunderstood me – merely trying to point out that certain people seem to be unable to “concentrate” their energies on their own teamS, but always have to put the negative little dig about us.
@Ben (Comment 225) : yeah he is i agree
@diablo (Comment 229) : nah just the stormers
@diablo (Comment 229) : What’s up with the am I luke part??
@Talent (Comment 230) : So then rather use Kabamba as the impact player. Juan smith, heinrich brussouw and ashley johnson is a pretty good loose trio if you ask me!
well without brussouw i would play floors at 6
Cheers all ! Sleep well and go to the stadium tommorow ,if youre on tv salute so i know its you! haha
@Talent (Comment 234) : Couldn’t agree with you more there!
Outta here gents and ladyfolk…. been a looonggg day of deadlines… Lekker slaap. Sien julle more…
@SharonvanWyk (Comment 237) : See ya
@SharonvanWyk (Comment 237) : Night-night
@Ben (Comment 232) : You and Lukey seem to have something in common…
@diablo (Comment 229) : Plus let me just add, almost no one ever talks snap about the bulls on this site. I think the one who does that most is me and I almost never do it! Sorry I just dislike your team a lot mate!
@diablo (Comment 239) : As in luke watson???
@Ben (Comment 240) : I’ve been on this site a bit longer than you (I think), so I’ve seen them come and go – you are by a long shot not top dog when it comes to hating the Bulls.
@Ben (Comment 241) : Nope – Skywalker
@diablo (Comment 242) : Okay yes dude I was referring to since I’ve joined the site.
I’m not a star wars fan at all so why would you say that?
@Ben (Comment 243) : Oops, my mistake…, I was under the impression that the analogy is well known in rugby circles
Was just being a bit facetious and yabking your chain 
@diablo (Comment 244) : Is it because I’m a shark??
@Ben (Comment 245) : Nope – why would you ask that?
@diablo (Comment 246) : Just jerking your chain!
@diablo (Comment 248) : Don’t need luck bro! Enjoy…
@diablo (Comment 248) : I, however will quite gladly accept your kind offer of luck for tomorrow’s game! We’re going to need every tiny advantage we can get against a very strong Blues team
@diablo (Comment 242) : Guess I`m near the top of that list?
Have huge respect for Groot Daan though . . .
Is it just me,or did the ref do his best that the bulls must win the last 20min.
You can see its the end of an era for the bulls
@Honey Badger (Comment 252) :
The ManU of rugby in SA … Its beyond ridiculous the way they are pampered by our refs in order for them to either catch up or defend a lead …
BULLSSUCKARSE
Is it just me but this frickinn touch pause engage is the biggest farce in rugby at te moment ..bring back own engagement and we can get on with the rugby already …
Watch any game of rugga pre TPE and you’ll find scrums got on alright compared to the current trend .. Very frustarting especially for early engagements ..
My biggest concern is the goalkicking at present (shock!!).we need all our goalkickers to hit in the 90% .morne steyn has missed like 5 (?)kicks at goal this season -ones he’d normally kick without much hassle..
@csb:yes,scrums are a shambles..we should try and keep them to a bare minimum..one solution: better handling skills methinks.
I have ZERO points for Superbru this week thus far…
And the last 2 games of the week I picked Tahs / Sharks / LIONS
So I am hoping not to get my first ZERO for an entire round…
At least I had a good round with the WC Cricket!!!!