Culling Song

There’s lies, damn lies, and then there’s stats…


Written by André Meyer (Culling Song)

Posted in :Original Content, Sharks on 14 Nov 2011 at 14:40
Tagged with : , , ,

So 2011 has come and gone (at least from a rugby perspective), and once again we, the Sharks fans, are faced with the familiar prospect of a year that, despite the cards being stacked in our favour (favourable Super 15 draw; talented, settled, and largely happy squad; player depth in all positions) failed to live up to our lofty, and not entirely unreasonable expectations. As can be expected in such a situation, there has been a lot of commentary, critique, speculation and wishes for what could have-, or should have been from all quarters. One particular aspect that has been very much a topic of debate has been the perceived failings of the Sharks’ recruitment- and succession planning/youth development program.

While I have been one of the people at the forefront of the “we need to back our young players” chorus, the fact remains that young players normally need time to mature and be ready for the demands of top-flight rugby. Alternatively, it is entirely possible for junior players to have reached the required skill and conditioning level, only to find themselves faced with little to no opportunities to break into the senior squad due to low player turnover, in which case they may decide to seek their fortunes elsewhere. It is of course also entirely possible that players who display all the necessary potential and performance levels as juniors never quite manage to make the final step up.

What should be clear from above is that situations can and do arise whereby the departure of senior players result in vacancies for which there are simply no suitable junior candidates available, regardless of how well the union’s succession program is run. Clearly, the recruitment of external players must necessarily form an integral part of any successful union’s strategy, with the important aspect being how well these recruitments are integrated with existing player development programs. So with that in mind I decided to forego my usual emotional/hysterical/delusional approach, and rather look at the facts objectively (in other words, using the What Would Morné Do? approach) in a quest to answer the following two questions:

  1. How good/bad* are the Sharks at recruiting?
  2. How good/bad* are the Sharks at developing talent?

(*Settle down, I am well aware that preaching objectivity and then using woolly and imprecise terms like good & bad on a site overrun by accountants and actuaries and statisticians and people hung up spelling and other sticklers for detail is just asking to be lectured at, so to save you all the effort I’ve pointed out my failings upfront. Forewarned is forearmed and all that jazz.)

In order to arrive at some sort of sensible conclusion, I have compiled a list of the Sharks squads from 2007 to present. 2007 has been specifically selected as a starting point as that was arguably the year of our highest achievement, when we almost won (and should have won) the Super 14. Furthermore, the 2007 squad appears to the most highly regarded squad of the last decade or so in the mind of most Sharks fans. The squad lists are tabulated below, and the following applies to the information listed:

-       Squads listed are a combination of both the Super Rugby and Currie Cup squads for the year. By virtue of players losses to Springbok duty, the Currie Cup squads tend to feature more fringe players, who do not necessarily feature strongly in terms of game time

-       External player acquisitions during each year is highlighted in red, with the union (or country, in the event of players playing abroad) being listed after the player’s name

-       Players highlighted in blue are players who have been added to the senior squad having come through at least once preceding season of junior rugby, be it U-21’s, Vodacom Cup, etc.

-       Players to have left the squad during or at the end of the year’s names are marked with a strikethrough

2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
Props BJ Botha BJ Botha BJ Botha
Tendai Mtawarira Tendai Mtawarira Tendai Mtawarira Tendai Mtawarira Tendai Mtawarira
Deon Carstens Deon Carstens Deon Carstens Deon Carstens Patric Cilliers
Patric Cilliers Patric Cilliers Patric Cilliers Patric Cilliers Jannie du Plessis
Kees Lensing Kees Lensing Robbie Harris Jannie du Plessis Dale Chadwick
Robbie Harris (Pumas) Robbie Harris Jannie du Plessis Melusi Mthethwa Wiehahn Herbst
David Hawksworth David Hawksworth Melusi Mthethwa Dale Chadwick Julian Redelinghuys
Ronnie Uys (Leopards) Ronnie Uys Dale Chadwick Wiehahn Herbst Sabelo Nhlapo
Jannie du Plessis (FS) Wiehahn Herbst Julian Redelinghuys Eugene van Staden
Melusi Mthethwa Julian Redelinghuys Sabelo Nhlapo
Eugene van Staden (France)
Hookers Skipper Badenhorst Skipper Badenhorst Skipper Badenhorst Skipper Badenhorst Bismarck du Plessis
Bismarck du Plessis Bismarck du Plessis Bismarck du Plessis Bismarck du Plessis John Smit
John Smit John Smit John Smit John Smit Craig Burden
Craig Burden Craig Burden Craig Burden Craig Burden Kyle Cooper
Jody Jenneker Jody Jenneker Kyle Cooper Monde Hadebe
Pellow vd Westhuizen (Leopards) Pellow vd Westhuizen
Locks Johann Ackermann Johann Ackermann Johann Muller Johann Muller Steven Sykes
Johann Muller Johann Muller Steven Sykes Steven Sykes Ali Hargreaves
Steven Sykes Steven Sykes Albert van den Berg Ali Hargreaves Gerhard Mostert
Albert van den Berg Albert van den Berg Ali Hargreaves Gerhard Mostert (Lions) Anton Bresler
Dewald Senekal Ali Hargreaves Wilhelm Steenkamp (Bulls) Ross Skeate
Ali Hargreaves Wouter Moore Anton Bresler Jandre Marais
Wouter Moore (FS) Jeandre Mynhardt Ross Skeate (France) Peet Marais
Jeandre Mynhardt  (Leopards) Joe Snyman
Loose Forwards Jacques Botes Jacques Botes Jacques Botes Jacques Botes Jacques Botes
Warren Britz Warren Britz Keegan Daniel Keegan Daniel Keegan Daniel
Keegan Daniel Keegan Daniel Ryan Kankowski Ryan Kankowski Ryan Kankowski
Ryan Kankowski Ryan Kankowski Nikolai Blignaut Nikolai Blignaut Jean Deysel
Bob Skinstad Bob Skinstad Jean Deysel Jean Deysel Skholiwe Ndlovu
AJ Venter AJ Venter Skholiwe Ndlovu Skholiwe Ndlovu Mike Rhodes
Nikolai Blignaut Nikolai Blignaut Nic Strauss Justin Downey Willem Alberts
Jean Deysel (Lions) Jean Deysel Justin Downey Mike Rhodes Marcell Coetzee
Thabo Mamojele (Pumas) Thabo Mamojele Mike Rhodes Willem Alberts (Lions) Lambert Groenewald
Skholiwe Ndlovu Skholiwe Ndlovu Daniel Adongo
Epi Taone (Tonga) Francois Kleinhans
Rudie Mathee (Lions) Lubabalo Mthembu
Nic Strauss (UK)
Scrumhalves Ruan Pienaar Ruan Pienaar Ruan Pienaar Ruan Pienaar Ruan Pienaar
Sandile Nxumalo Sandile Nxumalo Rory Kockott Rory Kockott Rory Kockott
Rory Kockott Rory Kockott Scott Mathie Charl McCleod Charl McCleod
Scott Mathie Scott Mathie Charl McCleod Ross Cronje Ross Cronje
Neil Cole Neil Cole Ross Cronje Conrad Hoffman (WP)
Charl McCleod (Valke) Cobus Reinach
Flyhalves Butch James Butch James Monty Dumond Monty Dumond Monty Dumond
Monty Dumond (WP) Monty Dumond Frederic Michalak Guy Cronje Guy Cronje
Tiaan Marx (Leopards) Tiaan Marx Andrew Borgen Juan Martin Hernandez Patrick Lambie
Frederic Michalak (France) Guy Cronje Patrick Lambie Steve Meyer
Andrew Borgen Juan Martin Hernandez (Arg.) Len Olivier Andre Pretorius
Patrick Lambie Andy Goode (UK) Frederic Michalak (France)
Len Olivier (Valke) Steve Meyer (France) Jacques-Louis Potgieter (Bulls)
Andre Pretorius (Aus)
Centres Brad Barritt Brad Barritt Brad Barritt
Gcobani Bobo Gcobani Bobo Waylon Murray Waylon Murray Adi Jacobs
Waylon Murray Waylon Murray Adi Jacobs Adi Jacobs Andries Strauss
Grant Rees Grant Rees Andries Strauss Andries Strauss Riaan Swanepoel
Adi Jacobs Adi Jacobs Riaan Swanepoel Riaan Swanepoel Luzuko Vulindlu
Andries Strauss Andries Strauss Luzuko Vulindlu Luzuko Vulindlu Meyer Bosman (FS)
Dumisane Matyeshana (Leopards) Dumisane Matyeshana Lionel Mapoe (FS) Marius Joubert (France)
Riaan Swanepoel Paul Jordaan
Heimar Williams
Back Three Odwa Ndungane Odwa Ndungane Odwa Ndungane Odwa Ndungane Odwa Ndungane
Dusty Noble Dusty Noble JP Pietersen JP Pietersen JP Pietersen
Howard Noble Howard Noble Henno Mentz Stefan Terblanche Stefan Terblanche
JP Pietersen JP Pietersen Frans Steyn Chris Jordaan Lwazi Mvovo
Henno Mentz Henno Mentz Stefan Terblanche Lwazi Mvovo Louis Ludik
Frans Steyn Frans Steyn Wesley Bodmer Louis Ludik (Lions) Gouws Prinsloo
Cedric Mkhize Cedric Mkhize Chris Jordaan Mark Richards
Stefan Terblanche (Wales) Stefan Terblanche Lwazi Mvovo Sbura Sithole
Wesley Bodmer Rosco Specman
Chris Jordaan
Lwazi Mvovo

All of the above is obviously a lot of information to digest in one go, even for detail junkies. In order to make it more digestible, I have grouped the names of additions to the squad into 3 categories, namely recruitments from the big 4 unions (WP, Bulls, Lions, FS) and abroad, recruitments from small unions, and internally developed players.

Recruited From Big Unions Recruited From Small Unions Juniors
1 Wouter Moore Robbie Harris David Hawksworth
2 Jean Deysel Ronnie Uys Craig Burden
3 Monty Dumond Pellow vd Westhuizen Jody Jenneker
4 Stefan Terblanche Jeandre Mynhardt Ali Hargreaves
5 Jannie du Plessis Thabo Mamojele Nikolai Blignaut
6 Epi Taone Tiaan Marx Skholiwe Ndlovu
7 Rudie Mathee Dumisane Matyeshana Neil Cole
8 Frederic Michalak Charl McCleod Melusi Mthethwa
9 Juan Martin Hernandez Len Olivier Joe Snyman
10 Gerhard Mostert Nic Strauss
11 Wilhelm Steenkamp Andrew Borgen
12 Ross Skeate Riaan Swanepoel
13 Willem Alberts Wesley Bodmer
14 Andy Goode Chris Jordaan
15 Steve Meyer Lwazi Mvovo
16 Andre Pretorius Dale Chadwick
17 Lionel Mapoe Wiehahn Herbst
18 Louis Ludik Julian Redelinghuys
19 Conrad Hoffman Justin Downey
20 Jacques-Louis Potgieter Mike Rhodes
21 Meyer Bosman Ross Cronje
22 Marius Joubert Guy Cronje
23 Patrick Lambie
24 Luzuko Vulindlu
25 Sabelo Nhlapo
26 Kyle Cooper
27 Anton Bresler
28 Monde Hadebe
29 Jandre Marais
30 Peet Marais
31 Marcell Coetzee
32 Lambert Groenewald
33 Daniel Adongo
34 Francois Kleinhans
35 Lubabalo Mthembu
36 Cobus Reinach
37 Paul Jordaan
38 Heimar Williams
39 Gouws Prinsloo
40 Mark Richards
41 Sbura Sithole
42 Rosco Specman

When viewed like this, some trends emerge. Firstly, with regards to external recruitments, the Sharks clearly favour recruiting from larger unions or abroad, with these signings (22 in total) outnumbering signings from smaller unions (9) by more than 100%. Furthermore, the rate of signing from large unions appears to be on the increase, whereas the last small-union signings were made in 2008 and 2009 (one in each year). Interestingly enough, the number of juniors added to the squad (42) during the period being observed outnumbers external recruitments by 33%, and the number of juniors added to the squad peaked in 2011.

All of the aforementioned would at first glance suggest a healthy developmental plan delivering a steady stream of juniors into the senior ranks. However, the devil is in the detail as they say, and it is on closer inspection of the three categories that some of the underlying problems are thrown in clear relief. Asking the question: “How much value has each person added to the Sharks?” in each of the three categories causes the proverbial can of worms to open.

In terms of the external recruitments from large unions, only 6 players (Deysel, Terblanche, Du Plessis, Skeate, Alberts and Ludik) can be said to have added value over a period in excess of a year. Arguably, it could be said Fred Michalak, although only contracted for around a year (on two separate occasions) has justified the expense incurred to sign him, while the jury is still out on the recent signings of Bosman, Hoffman and Joubert (although when I ran into the jury over lunch in the canteen, they looked far from happy). As for Jacques-Louis Potgieter, the mere fact that he has so rarely been utilised makes him a poor investment, regardless of talent or ability. As for smaller union signings, only Charl McCleod can be thought of as a decent investment. What this translates to in terms of recruitments from beyond the union adding value is an current effectiveness of 26% (8 out of 31), with a potential of rising to 33% (11/33) should our 2011 signings prove their worth. Not particularly inspiring reading, particularly when combined with the contracting disasters of Taone, Mapoe and Meyer.

Applying the same logic to juniors, we find that 10 players (Burden, Swanepoel, Hargreaves, Mvovo, Chadwick, Herbst, Lambie, Bresler, Coetzee, Sithole) have had regular game time as part of the senior squad, with an additional 3 (Cooper, Jandre Marais, Richards) having consistently been on the fringes of the squad. Hauling out my mad mathematical skillz, that translates to 24 – 31% (10/13 out of 42) effectiveness.

Even more perturbing in the bigger picture is the alarmingly high number of players, particularly from the smaller union recruitments and junior ranks who are brought into the squad, only to vanish from the face of planet Sharks within the year, or to remain on the outside without ever getting a look in.

While there is still much that can be gleaned from the info, I’ll leave that to the more technically astute among you. If the information presented was a little dry and overly-detailed, I apologise – more drug-fuelled madness next time, I promise. What I hope is that this provides some though for thought, cause for debate, and possible an overhaul of a very, very important (and poorly functioning) aspect of Sharks Rugby. Until then, I live in hope!



59 Comments

  • A very well put together article I must say! I still think the Sharks have had a pretty decent year. Yes winning every title every year would be great…but this isnt fantasy rugby! Im also a fan of using players that come through the ranks rather than recruiting but at the end of the day there are only 22 places available each week so there will be guys who feel they should be playing but are just too far down the pecking order. Yes the Bulls and Lions etc are signging Sharks players…but whats happening to those Bulls and Lions youngsters coming through…where they gonna play…the Sharks??

  • Comment 1, posted at 14.11.11 14:58:16 by SheldonK Reply
    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • Morne…it that you and what did you do with Culling Song? :shock:

  • Comment 2, posted at 14.11.11 14:59:21 by Pokkel Reply
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  • Very nice article.

    You have to say that, even without looking at this, the Sharks recruitment has been absolutley crap hasnt it?

    Strauli’s ability to sign has beens and let go fairly promising youngsters is almost uncanny.

    Look at the ‘centres’ columns, we havent had a really world class centre combo since, well clearly since before 2007 because I cant see anything world class in any of those columns.

    The back 3 isnt much better with only JP and Mvovo holding their own.
    The pack looks ok exept at lock. This probably explains our lack of game plan if the pack doesnt perform…we just dont have centres and the outside backs to compensate.

  • Comment 3, posted at 14.11.11 15:31:18 by John Galt Reply

    John GaltCurrie Cup player
     
  • Awesome work CS. Much respect for the effort made. :smile:

  • Comment 4, posted at 14.11.11 15:38:43 by beet Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    beetCurrie Cup player
     
  • Our scrumhalf and centre situations are particularly worrying if we look at those 2011 columns. :sad:

  • Comment 5, posted at 14.11.11 15:41:25 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 2) : I reckon all the wine I was drinking in the sun over the weekend temporarily cause me to morph into Morne. Now I’ll have to drink whisky in the dark to restore the balance. :lol:

  • Comment 6, posted at 14.11.11 16:07:00 by Culling Song Reply
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  • so speaking of Joe Snyman… looks like the Lions just turfed him

  • Comment 7, posted at 14.11.11 16:08:54 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 6) :

    :mrgreen: I was just wondering were you got time inbetween the wine drinking to write this? Is your iphone waterproof? Did you write and research this while lying in the pool?

    Thanks for the impromptu invite on Saturday! It was fun.

  • Comment 8, posted at 14.11.11 16:12:58 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 8) :

    to top it off we couldn’t be held liable for any Sharks losses! :grin:

  • Comment 9, posted at 14.11.11 16:16:04 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 8) : I downloaded IOS 5.01 for my iPhone. Features a handy in-built app where you basically dictate the article in your mind and the phone types it. Don’t get a Blackberry; they’re waaaaayyyy behind when it comes to mind control. :mrgreen:

  • Comment 10, posted at 14.11.11 16:16:26 by Culling Song Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 9) : Cool to have you guys over; must do so more often!

  • Comment 11, posted at 14.11.11 16:16:57 by Culling Song Reply
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  • @robdylan: wonder if johan snyman will be re-joining the sharks then?
    Or moving to the bulls..?

  • Comment 12, posted at 14.11.11 16:26:44 by bergshark Reply

    bergsharkSuper Rugby player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 7) : sad sad moment .. every time he played he played very well .

    but yea . lets see what happens . good luck to the guy

  • Comment 13, posted at 14.11.11 16:38:35 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Culling Song :CS, this was a good read, lotse facts but good insight…

  • Comment 14, posted at 14.11.11 16:45:28 by Franshark Reply
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  • @bergshark (Comment 12) : way to start a rumour :)

  • Comment 15, posted at 14.11.11 17:13:32 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 10) : hahaha ;)

  • Comment 16, posted at 14.11.11 17:31:45 by Franshark Reply
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  • The last good centre combo the Sharks had was Bradley Barrit and Waylon Murray

  • Comment 17, posted at 14.11.11 17:54:50 by Mutley Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 6) : @Pokkel (Comment 2) :

    Haha, leave me out of it but what a great article. From experience I know this type of data compilation takes time to gather, let alone put forward to readers to consume.

    At first glance my reaction would be compared to other unions, I don’t think you will see much difference in two areas – recruitment from big and smaller unions.

    As for recruiting or developing juniors however, you have reason to be concerned as Sharks and WP follow a very similar pattern.

    The problem is two-fold imo – one, the guy contracting does not know his arse from his elbow, and two, coaches at the respective unions are clueless specifically on how to develop talent.

    Although this article mainly focus on recruitment, it also gives some insight as to who or what type of quality has been lost over the years (players becoming stars elsewhere or star players being screwed over and leaving). That would be another interesting article.

  • Comment 18, posted at 14.11.11 18:16:38 by Morné Reply
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    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 18) : yes… you need to apply just one more filter over this… of the young guys who came through (named in SR or CC squads), how many went on to earn 5 or more caps…

  • Comment 19, posted at 14.11.11 18:46:08 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 19) :

    Yes

  • Comment 20, posted at 14.11.11 18:48:27 by Morné Reply
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    MornéTeam captain
     
  • Let’s have a look at this…

    We started out with this

    Recruited From Big Unions Recruited From Small Unions Juniors
    1 Wouter Moore Robbie Harris David Hawksworth
    2 Jean Deysel Ronnie Uys Craig Burden
    3 Monty Dumond Pellow vd Westhuizen Jody Jenneker
    4 Stefan Terblanche Jeandre Mynhardt Ali Hargreaves
    5 Jannie du Plessis Thabo Mamojele Nikolai Blignaut
    6 Epi Taone Tiaan Marx Skholiwe Ndlovu
    7 Rudie Mathee Dumisane Matyeshana Neil Cole
    8 Frederic Michalak Charl McCleod Melusi Mthethwa
    9 Juan Martin Hernandez Len Olivier Joe Snyman
    10 Gerhard Mostert Nic Strauss
    11 Wilhelm Steenkamp Andrew Borgen
    12 Ross Skeate Riaan Swanepoel
    13 Willem Alberts Wesley Bodmer
    14 Andy Goode Chris Jordaan
    15 Steve Meyer Lwazi Mvovo
    16 Andre Pretorius Dale Chadwick
    17 Lionel Mapoe Wiehahn Herbst
    18 Louis Ludik Julian Redelinghuys
    19 Conrad Hoffman Justin Downey
    20 Jacques-Louis Potgieter Mike Rhodes
    21 Meyer Bosman Ross Cronje
    22 Marius Joubert Guy Cronje
    23 Patrick Lambie
    24 Luzuko Vulindlu
    25 Sabelo Nhlapo
    26 Kyle Cooper
    27 Anton Bresler
    28 Monde Hadebe
    29 Jandre Marais
    30 Peet Marais
    31 Marcell Coetzee
    32 Lambert Groenewald
    33 Daniel Adongo
    34 Francois Kleinhans
    35 Lubabalo Mthembu
    36 Cobus Reinach
    37 Paul Jordaan
    38 Heimar Williams
    39 Gouws Prinsloo
    40 Mark Richards
    41 Sbura Sithole
    42 Rosco Specman
  • Comment 21, posted at 14.11.11 18:50:04 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 21) : of those juniors, the following left without ever establishing themselves:

    Hawksworth
    Jenneker
    Blignaut
    Ndlovu
    Cole
    Mthethwa
    Snyman
    Borgen
    Bodmer
    Jordaan
    Downey
    Rhodes
    Ross Cronje
    Guy Cronje
    Vulindlu
    Nhlapo
    Groenewald
    Adongo

    The following, despite being named in a squad, have yet to be capped:

    Williams
    Jordaan
    Mthembu
    Specman

    And the following have fewer than 5 caps:
    Richards
    Prinsloo
    Reinach
    Kleinhans
    Peet Marais
    Hadebe
    Redelinghuys

  • Comment 22, posted at 14.11.11 18:56:01 by robdylan Reply
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  • that’s 29… so subtract that from 41 (Strauss shouldn’t have been in that category cos he left to play in the UK before coming back) and you only have 12 players left.

    How does that look?

  • Comment 23, posted at 14.11.11 18:57:12 by robdylan Reply
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  • I left out Swanepoel, because he kind of did establish himself, before leaving.

  • Comment 24, posted at 14.11.11 18:57:58 by robdylan Reply
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  • So who does that leave us? Who is established in the current side that has come through our youth structures?

    Hargreaves
    Mvovo
    Chadwick
    Herbst
    Lambie
    Cooper
    Bresler
    Jandre Marais
    Coetzee
    Sithole

  • Comment 25, posted at 14.11.11 19:00:46 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 22) : Good work Rob.

  • Comment 26, posted at 14.11.11 19:01:54 by beet Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    beetCurrie Cup player
     
  • add to that 11 players that we’ve bought from “elsewhere” that are still in the picture

  • Comment 27, posted at 14.11.11 19:02:00 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 25) : if we increase the criteria to 10 caps then even more of those guys fall out…

  • Comment 28, posted at 14.11.11 19:02:51 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 25) : ha ha… and which of those guys ia a first-choice starter?

    Answer: only Lambie.

  • Comment 29, posted at 14.11.11 19:04:23 by robdylan Reply
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  • so, in short, all that the Sharks Academy has really produced for the benefit of the Sharks over the last 5 years is Pat Lambie :)

  • Comment 30, posted at 14.11.11 19:05:07 by robdylan Reply
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  • Great article CS!

    A lot or recruitment is hit and miss – human development is a complex business and a wildcard at the best of times, but I’m afraid that I rate the Sharks at the bottom of the barrel.

    If you ask me whether I trust the talent-spotting abilities of Heyneke Meyer or Plumtree, I have no hesitation in saying its the former.

  • Comment 31, posted at 14.11.11 19:21:09 by Big Fish Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 25) :

    Bliksem I wish I had the time to do a WP analysis based on similar data – I would almost guarantee you a similar read!

    I am so gatvol of this bloody fat (read old) -boys club running this beautiful game.

  • Comment 32, posted at 14.11.11 19:23:53 by Morné Reply
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    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 32) : running or ruining?

  • Comment 33, posted at 14.11.11 19:27:58 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 32) :

    You will see much the same picture @ the Lions im sure . Only Taute and Jantjies really came through our ranks

  • Comment 34, posted at 14.11.11 19:33:42 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 30) : I like the additional analysis you’ve done, Rob. I think there’s still a lot that can be done with the data, e.g. comparing quality of departing players to that of their replacements, trends in terms of average squad caps, etc.

  • Comment 35, posted at 14.11.11 19:37:25 by Culling Song Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 35) : I just think that the Sharks pay lip service to junior player development a lot of the time… Naming them in squads, inviting them to practice, etc, but never actually backing them when the chips are down by playing them

  • Comment 36, posted at 14.11.11 19:41:19 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 33) :

    Given the context mate – same thing.

  • Comment 37, posted at 14.11.11 19:48:18 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 37) : time for a revolution?

  • Comment 38, posted at 14.11.11 20:25:35 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 18) : Agreed. Hence I’m of the view of RS and Plum are a screwed up combo.

  • Comment 39, posted at 14.11.11 20:28:05 by GreatSharksays Reply

    Assistant coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 36) : Its always a tough call to throw in untried youngsters when you have a lot of established and experienced players. Just a silly example..if Bismarck had 2 very average games would you then put Hadebe in? Will Bismarck really play 3 bad in a row? Its things like that that a coach has to consider. Its easy to play youngsters when you dont have the big names…

  • Comment 40, posted at 15.11.11 07:57:32 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 40) : hooker is a bad example mate… Sharks have an ebarrassingly overstocked hooker cupboard (oo-er) and have for some years.

    What about lock? When the chips are down, even a guy like Bresler is deemed not good enough and Plum opts to play Deysel out of position instead. Or centre? How many more mediocre games do we need a Marius Joubert to play in a row?

  • Comment 41, posted at 15.11.11 09:39:35 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 41) : Yeh look i know hooker was a silly example but i wnated to exaggerate things a bit. The lock situation is a bit puzzling but i think Plum just wanted to have Deysel,Alberts,Keegan and Kanko on the field so he went that route. As for the centres im guessing his thinking was as i said above (he was backing his senior players to deliver sometime as they surely couldnt always be off their game) and I guess in hindsight they never did deliver. Hopefully he has learnt from that…time will tell i guess. What does interest me is how coaches with a lot of big names (meaning Boks) manage their teams as in Super Rugby they will have the big names to call on but what about in CC when all the Boks arent available and all the juniors have gone elsewhere in search of a chance to maybe play Super Rugby….

  • Comment 42, posted at 15.11.11 09:47:39 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 42) : Plum was wrong to pay Deysel ahead of a specialist lock. I think we all like to get blinded by the prospect of having Alberts and Deysel together on the park but the sad reality is that they don’t complement each other because they’re too similar and (dare I say) one-dimensional in what they offer.

    Would Plum have picked Deysel at lock ahead of Sykes, Mostert, or another experienced (“name”) player? No… so to my mind, this is completely about him not wanting to back younger players, even those who have already got 20 caps (Bresler) and have never let the side down.

  • Comment 43, posted at 15.11.11 10:13:57 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 43) : Look im with you there in that i would have picked Bresler and had Alberts or Deysel play off the bench. I really dont think coaches utilise their bench properly as it is a 22man game now (and no they dont all need to come on at 60min). I also feel that Plum missed a trick in not carrying on with the guys that started the CC…guys like Chadwick, Sithole and even Prinsloo. Guys like Odwa,JP,Jannie etc could have been used either as an impact off the bench. To answer the question of whether youngsters will be used in Super Rugby..im going to think no to be honest. Mayb if the guys in charge have half an idea they would select a team for the Vodacom Cup that would then go on and play in the CC…now that would be development and continuity…

  • Comment 44, posted at 15.11.11 10:56:45 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 44) : Super Rugby is just so long now that I think you’re going to have to dig into your reserve depth at some point….

    simply can’t have a repeat of this year where a guy like Alberts is played literally into the ground.

  • Comment 45, posted at 15.11.11 10:58:38 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 45) : Well Rob rewind 12 months and we said the same thing bout Super Rugby in 2011…its a long comp and we need a big squad and have to rest and rotate players. How many SA sides rested and rotated guys? And how many times did NZ sides rotate players? And who won the RWC…just a thought

  • Comment 46, posted at 15.11.11 11:32:12 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 36) : What would be interesting would be to see how many players who came through the junior ranks while Dick Muir was head coach went on to amass, say, 10 caps or more, and to contrast that with Plum’s stats.

    Now *that* would make for sobering reading, I’m sure… :roll:

  • Comment 47, posted at 15.11.11 11:46:55 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling SongTeam captain
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 47) : U cant really compare because the side Muir had didnt have a lot of established players and Boks like Plum does now.

  • Comment 48, posted at 15.11.11 12:10:27 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 48) : Fair comment. So maybe one should look over the various coaches reigns, and see how many of the established/marquee players that left during their tenure was replaced by junior players, excpressed as a percentage? This would still not be an absolute measurement, but I’m sure the trends would be quite instructive.

  • Comment 49, posted at 15.11.11 12:16:33 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling SongTeam captain
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 49) : Its hard to judge a coach by the youngsters he uses as it all depends who he has at his disposal to start with. This year Plum has brought in Marcell Coetzee and Sbu Sithole, and they have both aquitted themselves very well. There hasnt been much space elsewhere for him to bring in players (i wont touch on centres) except maybe at lock.

  • Comment 50, posted at 15.11.11 12:39:11 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 50) : This year, I actually think we have done quite well in terms of giving youngsters opportunities. My concern is that when taking a slightly longer term view, we seem to include heaps on youngsters in our squads, but that very few of them are given any sort of meanigful opportunity; it sort of gives me the sense that it’s window-dressing more than anyone else. I don’t necessarily want to lay the blame for this solely at Plum’s feet though (though I do believe he should shoulder a significant portion of the blame), as there are a lot behind the scenes dealings that I have no insight into.

  • Comment 51, posted at 15.11.11 12:59:22 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling SongTeam captain
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 51) : I dont think that including youngsters in training squads is window dressing at all. These youngsters are keeping to train and learn from Boks in the most part and in some cases World Cup winners! Maybe the vision at the Sharks is longer than we think and things are taken out of their hands by youngsters wanting to play now rather than in a couple years which the Sharks had in mind.

  • Comment 52, posted at 15.11.11 13:13:43 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 52) : I like your positive outlook regarding the Sharks, but I’m afraid I don’t share it…

  • Comment 53, posted at 15.11.11 13:40:03 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling SongTeam captain
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 53) : I guess i just feel things are a lot more positive being a Sharks fan than a Cheetahs,Leopards or EP Kings fan hey.

  • Comment 54, posted at 15.11.11 13:54:00 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @bergshark (Comment 12) :

    As far as I have heard he’s going to the Kings.

    The way the the Lions treated him is disgusting in the extreme and the fruit of will be felt.

  • Comment 55, posted at 15.11.11 14:30:27 by Bump Reply

    BumpSuper Rugby player
     
  • this is rather extensive analysis :razz:

  • Comment 56, posted at 15.11.11 14:36:56 by rekinek Reply
    Competition WinnerCompetition Winner Author
    rekinekTeam captain
     
  • @Big Fish (Comment 31) : yip.

    I guess if you do the percentages and take all the purchasers as 100% then those that happened to be bad should not be too much. But having said that the Sharks are buying a lot.

  • Comment 57, posted at 15.11.11 14:40:16 by rekinek Reply
    Competition WinnerCompetition Winner Author
    rekinekTeam captain
     
  • @Bump: thanks for the info.
    wish him all the best at the kings .glad to see he isn’t in the rugby wilderness but managed to get a contract at another rugby union.

  • Comment 58, posted at 15.11.11 15:04:54 by bergshark Reply

    bergsharkSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Bump (Comment 55) :

    sadly i have to agree …

  • Comment 59, posted at 16.11.11 09:38:44 by Zibbie Reply
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