Well, it seems that Heyneke Meyer did indeed manage to ruffle more than a few feathers with his first Bok squad, with those fearing that he would indeed opt to “maak die Bulls almal Bokke” certainly given plenty of fodder with which to fill their cannons.
Surprisingly, though, it is the Stormers who appear to have suffered the biggest collective snub, rather than the Sharks as so many of us feared. Hell, with no fewer than 11 of our boys (well, 10 with Frans Steyn a cheeky addition) one could argue that Meyer rates our players a fair bit more highly than they seem to rate themselves at times.
Let’s look at the squad and see which selections are causing the most heat for the coach.
Prop: No major concerns here, with the selections of Beast, Jannie and Coenie Oosthuizen generally well received. Few have said much about Werner Kruger’s inclusion, but it’s probably ok on the whole. Pat Cilliers is unlucky, I’d say, as is Dean Greyling.
Hooker: Meyer picked the three top guys in Bismark, Adriaan Strauss and Chilliboy. No arguments there.
Lock: Franco van der Merwe’s inclusion was the big shock here, but given that Andries Bekker’s spot had to go to somebody, it’s fair to say that the Lions man probably deserved it on sheer loyalty and staying power alone. I guess you can call him lucky, but injuries often do open unlikely doors, sometimes late in a player’s career. Flip van der Merwe, Juandre Kruger and Eben Etzebeth were all expected, good, selections.
Loose forwards: Here we start to get contentious and it seems that everyone has their own opinions. Marcell Coetzee and Willem Alberts seem to be universally popular picks, with most also conceding that Keegan Daniel’s form warrants a spot. Pierre Spies was always going to be there based on his experience too. It’s the selection of Ryan Kankowski and Jacques Potgieter that has caused the most outrage; the former has played hardly any rugby this year while the latter has been pretty good, without being great. The real talking points, though, are the omission of Heinrich Brussow and to a lesser extent Siya Kolisi. Meyer has made a big call in leaving out Brussow and if Coetzee is to be his starting open side, as we’re told, he’s got some big boots to fill. Josh Strauss is another who is probably very unlucky to miss out to Potgieter.
Scrumhalves: with Fourie du Preez crying off at the last minute, Meyer needed to find a third scrummie in a hurry. Few seem to have a problem with Hougaard and Pienaar as the first two names, but Jano Verrmaak’s call-up ahead of Charl McLeod and Dewald Duvenage has raised allegations of provincial bias. My view is that we are in the midst of something of a scrumhalf crisis at the moment, with Vermaak not markedly worse than any of the other candidates.
Flyhalves: all the important names are there; Steyn, Lambie, Jantjies. In the Cape, they’ll bleat about Peter Grant, but Meyer is hardly the first Bok coach to write the former Martizburg College boy off as a genuine test option.
Centres: Get your gloves on…. the selection of Wynand Olivier for his experience is probably justified, but the inclusion of JJ Engelbrecht ahead of Juan de Jongh, to my mind, cannot be defended. At least we know that the first choice partnership of de Villiers and Frans Steyn is a good’un. This one, though, has the Stormers fans steaming and I have to say that they have a right to be annoyed.
Back three: Once again, it’s the omission of a Stormers man in Gio Aplon that has the tongues wagging here. Meyer’s feeling is that the pint-size Aplon isn’t big enough for the kind of rugby he wants to play and I guess that’s his prerogative as the coach, although hopefully he’ll keep an open mind and adjust his strategy as time goes by. Pietersen, Mvovo, Habana and Basson pretty much all pick themselves, while a dearth of options at fullback has given Zane Kirchner a slot too. Again, while I may not personally rate old “Sideshow Bob” much, Meyer is hardly the first coach to give the lad a shot at Bok rugby.
All-in-all, I’d say the coach got his squad about 80% right (although if I lived in Cape Town, I’d probably drop that to a 60%). The proof of the pudding, of course, is in how well it smashes the English, so let’s wait and see how this bunch performs in Saturday’s opening test before getting too worked up.
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The only real problems i have with the squad are the non-selection of Heinrich Brussouw and the selection of an injured Potgieter. The starting loose trio, if fit, would probably be Schalk, Vermuelen and Spies. I do think Vermaak is a better out and out 9 than either Duvenhage or McLeod. McLeod’s boot is about as reliable as an old Lancia and his passing game is average. It’s fair to say he played above himself when he was selected ahead of Kockott, but he just isn’t anymore.
Naas Botha was asked for his opinion on Cape Talk this morning and he laughed at suggestions that both Aplon and De Jongh are too small for test rugby.
Oh well… let’s see how Olivier and JJ go if they do ever get a chance to play!!
Rob
Jacques Potgieter hasn’t played rugby for the last month or so!!
I feel the Stormers are making a storm in a tea cup with De Jongh. Honestly, when last did you notice the guys on the field? If we forget about JJ for a second and only look at de Jongh on his own merit, I would say that Meyer was correct in not selecting the guys.
Olivier is at good provincial player nothing more..one question..if whitehead was not injured do you guys think meyer would of picked him?
@Viking (Comment 4) : I don’t rate de Jongh as highly as Engelbrecht or even Jordaan, but that might have more to do with the way i perceive the player rather than any actual rugby reason, which is unfair really… But there you go, subjectivity is the rugby fan’s prerogative.
@wpw (Comment 2) : If that is the thinking then so was Giteau and so is O’Connor.
Olivier and Bok don’t even warrant mention in the same sentence.
@Viking (Comment 4) : Thats total hogwash. There isn’t even a specialist 13 in the squad pal! De Jongh is the real deal. He can play 12 and 13 and he already has a combination with De Villers. Its total bias plain and simple. And no, I don’t support the Stormers.
@neilster (Comment 9) : Agree 100%!!!
@neilster (Comment 9) : I agree with you about a specialist 13, but answer me this:
1) is de jongh a specialist 13?
2) when last did he deliver the goods consistently?
@Viking (Comment 11) :
1. Yes, he moved to 12 to accommodate Fourie
2. Every week, when last did you see him stuff up?
@Viking (Comment 11) : Yes I believe he is a specialist 13 more so than 12, where he filled in for De Villiers in the past. He may not be setting the world alight onattack, but which Stormers backline player is seeing as they have a defensive gameplan? But yes, I believe he is consistently playing his part in the defensive solidity that sees the Stormers top of the log.
If its his attack that you are saying is in question, then do you really believe Meyer’s gameplan requires that, as i certainly don’t.
@Viking (Comment 11) :
1) Yes he is.
2) Every single week.
The starting 15 and even the 22 players that will do duty will be close to the best there is, its the other 10 that’s hanging around that’s suspicious…
How can Meyer say people are too small for Test rugby. Lambie & Jantjies are not large players – I think they are the smallest in the squad along with our “small ” Keegan. I do believe Tim would have been chosen had he not been injured. If they wanted another scrummie, what about Tewis de Bruin? I don’t rate Jano. They could have looked at Sarel Pretorius if they were considering Fourie du bPreez. Many options.McLeod is in a comfort zone with no competition at home.It is to his detriment.Ludik would have been a better option than Kirschner, who I don’t rate either.
so the stormers are complaining that there whole backline ain’t in the bok squad, cause habana and jdv is there they also want aplon,dejongh and grant in there as well, 5/7, is this the same backline that can’t score tries….
@markm (Comment 16) : Tewis? You must be stirring??
Who is to captain? de Villiers is not strong enough, Spies is not guaranteed a place, so it is between Bismarck & Adriaan or even Chilliboy!!!!!What a turn-up for the books if Keegan captains our national team.
@Ben. I am stirring.
@MJ (Comment 17) : Yes and the same one that sees them 1st in the SA conference and 2nd on the combined log.
@markm (Comment 20) : Thank goodness.
So Meyer made his calls – let’s see how he goes before complaining too much.
Aplon is a bit old – might also have conted against him. De Jongh is unlucky – I don’t think he is good enough yet to start for the Boks, but with the current talent available, he should be there ahead of Engelbrecht.
Morning all
After initially spitting fire and keeping the wife up Saturday night trying to argue certain players causes (to which she had no real response except “i need some shut eye you are not the coach”)
I have eventually put myself in HM position. He is no fool I have learnt over the years watching the Bulls. He favours a brand of rugby which he is entitled to do. From 2001 – 2007 he not only coached the team but was also instrumental in scouting certain players. As the national coach he now finds himself in that “scout” role where he has to scout the best players from the five unions and one or 2 from outside the country to play “his brand” of rugby.
He likes big ball carriers who are brutal. A man who has 1 week to prepare a national team for a series opener against the English should be entitled to selct a team whose systems he set up and continued to run until January 2012 when he was selected national coach.
This looks to me a short term option and is bound to change for the Rugby Championships. 3 weeks of rugby choose the best combinations and the bulk of the team who knows your philosophy and systems.
I see the team looking a lot like the one below…which is probably best suited for the immediate future and which most would probably select anyway.
15. Lambie
14. JP
13. JDV
12. Frans
11. Habana
10. Morne
09. Hougaard
08. Spies
07. Alberts
06. Coetzee
05. Juandre
04. Flip
03. Jannie
02. Bissie
01. Beast
16. Chili
17. Coenie
18. Eben
19. Potgieter
20. Daniel
21. Olivier
22. Ruan
The key is going with combinations.
14 can easily be Basson ahead of JP for the kick chase gameplan and Daniel could easily start ahead of Spies. But Primary aim for HM gameplan is to win lineout ball.
Eben would of started but the other half of what made his combo so attractive is now injured which makes Flip very lucky as most experience lock in squad.
Dont besurprised to see Alberts even started at 4.
I think Meyer got the squad spot on.
I reckon Meyer picked is 1st 15, and then selectd the rest based on trying to replace someone in the 1st 15 if they’re injured.
For example, De Jongh doesn’t play anywhere near the same type of game as de Villiers & Steyn so he wouldn’t have slotted in seemlessly if there was an injury.
Similarly, if he rates Coetzee as his 1st choice at 6, then Potgieter is a better replacement for Coetzee (in terms of similar playing style) than Broussouw
What is the story with Frans and availability for the 1st Pom test? Is he not getting married on the day?
If that is the case we may have a midfield of JDV and Olivier?
I think Kolisi was the unluckiest, but he is at least part of the larger training squad which will give the coach more of a chance to assess him… remember, Kolisi wasn’t even in the Stormers 1st 15 just 4 months ago, and probably won’t be either when Vermuelen, Burger & Koster return.
@CS (Comment 27) : Yes, both playing openside like blindsiders
@Bokhoring (Comment 28) : Please NO
@Salmonoid (Comment 25) : So the omission of a speciliast openside like Brussouw is defendable?
@neilster (Comment 32) : We should hopefully manage against the Poms, but that better be rectified by the Rugby Championship. The Pococks / McCaws will have a field day on our ball
@Bokhoring (Comment 28) : Interesting he was meant to be tying the knot. Would probably be JDV and WO. wouldve been better to have JDV/JDJ in this instance
@Bokhoring (Comment 33) : Maybe we’ll manage, but the damage to Meyer’s credibility is already done by that point.
@neilster (Comment 35) : haha no damage done to anyones credibility! who do you support? Im a Shark supporter and can see the logic.
No way ANY coach will be caught out for such blatant bias. This was discussed a long time ago behind the scenes to avoid the potential PR crisis and reasons were given and agreed on for his plan.
On a lighter note whats happening with KEOHANE saga? any new news?
@Bokhoring (Comment 30) : I guess he feels with Bismark as his fetcher he has enough guys with a tendancy for “hands in the ruck”
@neilster (Comment 32) : Note the green smiley,
but having said that, when questioned about his picks (before the squad was announce) Nick Mallet also would not have picked Brussow, saying the fetching role is near to obsolete these days with the aim now being a double tackle at the same time and keeping the player with ball in hand from going to ground. Mallets choice at full back, ladies and gentleman, was Zane Kirchner and Steyn at 10 – he likes keeping combinations together.
@chucky (Comment 36) : No Chucky, when I said THAT point, I meant the Four nations. So to spell it out for you if we enter the Tri Nations without a recognised fetcher and get turned over at will? Yes, then! haha
Poor selections…
Spies
Olivier
Engelbrecht
Kirchner
Alberts (whether you like it or not he has 1 dimension)
Potgieter (I’d consider Dewald Potgieter though)
Jantjies
Disgraceful omissions…
BRUSSOW
Eberhson
Aplon
Kolisi
Grant
Finally…while I personally agree with Kankowski and Vermaak’s (light years ahead of McLeod and better than Duvenhage) quality, their selections are questionable given their game time!!!
@Salmonoid (Comment 38) : I listened to Mallet’s views and was very surprised. Obviously he is the man, but is also under the employ of Supersport! I guess we’ll see.
@CS (Comment 37) : Actually my concern is about retaining our own ball. Old Sharks bogey and only got better when we played a to the ball player in Botes. I rate Marcell very highly but he is just not effective in that role. He tackles everything that moves and gains a lot of ground for us. Players like Botes and Brussouw are very useful at our OWN rucks too – they have the body position to protect our ball.
@Bokhoring (Comment 42) : Unless the plan is to simply kick the leather of every ball, and hope you can pressure the oppo into mistakes
The thing is, if we lose to England on Saturday it won’t be because of team selections, it’ll be because of the short lead-time (which is not of Meyer’s doing)… but Meyer will nonetheless be roasted for his selections.
It’s a hapless job being Springbok coach
Why the hell did our administrators agree to a 3 game tour??? Two games would have been just fine and would’ve given our players time to prepare!
@neilster (Comment 41) :
It is interesting, I guess the rationale is that the out and out fetcher, ala Brussouw is not as necessary nowadays with having to release the player in the tackle as opposed to just diving straight in. As referees all have differing interpretations it leaves that area more of a 50-50. It seems the more all round type fetchers, like McCaw and Dusatouir who are more adept at carrying and taking line out ball and doing other things maybe more important now – hence Coetzee’s inclusion.
As for the Bok 22 I think Meyer will go with the following
1 – Beast
2 – Bismarck
3 – Jannie
4 – Flip vd Merwe
5 – Juandre Kruger
6 – Coetzee
7 – Alberts
8 – Spies
9 – Hougaard
10 – Steyn
11 – Habana
12 – Steyn
13 – De Villiers (c)
14 – Pieterson
15 – Kirchner
16 – A Strauss
17 – Kruger
18 – Franco vd Merwe
19 – Kankowski
20 – Pienaar
21 – Olivier
22 – Lambie
I reckon he will go with Werner Kruger to cover both sides, and I think he will go with Franco over Etzebeth as he has more experience and should anything happen to Juandre Kruger I cant see him expecting Etzebeth to come off the bench and run the lineout.
@neilster (Comment 32) : see what Meyer says about the Brussow ommision in the Volksblad.
@CS (Comment 44) : Very true CS
@Pat (Comment 45) : he can’t be that blue, no ways Krusty before Lambi…..
@neilster (Comment 41) : come on Neilster…you really think Mallet have a script given to him? Anyone…not Nick!
@Franshark (Comment 48) :
I’m not sure, I think he will go with Kirchner at the back. Dont agree with it myself but I reckon he will prefer Lambie’s utility value off the bench, with him being able to cover both flyhalf and fullback.
@Ice (Comment 46) : “Die bal is nou in sy baan om te wys dat hy hom by die nuwe interpretasie van die reëls kan aanpas.”
So het die Springbok-rugbyafrigter, Heyneke Meyer, gesê oor die skok-weglating van die kanniedood-baljagter Heinrich Brüssow.
Hoewel sy weglating ’n teleurstelling is, het Meyer wel soos verwag die haker Adriaan Strauss en stut Coenie Oosthuizen van die Cheetahs in sy Bok-groep van 32 spelers ingesluit.
“Heinrich tel steeds onder die beste oopkantflanke ter wêreld, maar die spel het verander. Dis nou die hakers wat die meeste balle steel en selfs ’n ou soos Coenie Oosthuizen het meer balle as die oopkantflanke gesteel,” het Meyer gesê.
(Volksblad article)
For our English speakers. HM is basically telling Brussouw that although he does rate him he needs to better adapt his game to the new rules. He continues to state that the game has changed in the sense that hookers (and even props) now steal more ball than open-side flanks.
@Bokhoring (Comment 42) : 100%
@Ice (Comment 49) : No I’m not suggesting its a script, but I’m most definitely suggesting that Supersport are not completely independent, when did you ever see them criticize PDV directly.
BULL. Juan de Jong has done nothing to warrant a spot. He made two awesome linebreaks in 2010 and now he still deserves a spot? He might be one of the greater reasons why Aplon lost out. Gio never really had a chance to shine with such a horrible centre on his inside.
As for Gio, he is no more than merely unlucky. There is no bias or injustice in his omission. Mvovo, Basson, Habana and Pietersen are good choices, with the first two being the top SA try scorers in super rugby and the latter two being the experience Meyer needs.
I think the Bulls dominate selection only because of the short preparation time. The squad for the Rugby Championship should look very different!
@neilster (Comment 32) : Off course it is. The SA coach who believed a fetcher to be someone who knows where the bar fridge is, won the world cup. The one who believed in fetchers continually embarrassed this country.
@vanmartin (Comment 51) : Yes I read that. Of course HM knows what he is talking about doesn’t he, he is of course basing this judgement on the Super rugby statistics. But, how often does the international season throw up something completely different, of course there are also NH referees involved. Recall TriN 2010 at all, Stormers and Bulls contested the final and Bulls won. Then we proceeded to get klapped in the TriN, and we were all left very bemused by the sudden change in the ability of PoCock and McCaw to turnover our ball with impunity.
@ChrisS (Comment 55) : And it makes sense. You want some combinations to counter act the short prep time.
Rob, with regards to your statement: “Meyer’s feeling is that the pint-size Aplon isn’t big enough for the kind of rugby he wants to play…”
That is the assumption everybody is making but he has picked a number of small blokes. Keegan, Morne, Lambie, Elton, Zane… these guys aren’t hulks.
@King Shark (Comment 58) : So taking that logic a step further you expecting Olivier and Engelbrecht to be the centres for the 1st test
@MJ (Comment 17) :*like*
@King Shark (Comment 54) : You make a interesting point regarding the selection of the wings and I guess at fullback Lambie something similar to Aplon but with a more educated boot which will definitely count in his favour.
@chucky (Comment 24) : double *like*
@neilster (Comment 57) : I thought that HM would have based his choices on the games he definitely would have been watching and the rugby trials he held…. you can’t use PDV’s reign has any yard stick of logic
@Just a Fan (Comment 64) : What rugby trials? This has nothing to do with PDV’s logic, it has to do with the constantly shifting law interpretations.
I don’t know, there’s a few surprises, but I just think you have to give a Bok coach a chance to pick his favorites or more specifically the guys he rates according to his plan for the team. It sucks for guys like de Jongh and Brussouw, but that’s just how the cookie crumbles really.
I say congratulations to the guys that did make the team, especially the new caps, I don’t think any of these players does not deserve a shot at all. I could go through them one by one and give you at least three reasons why each of them deserve their spot. (Maybe not Kirchner)….(And Waynand), I’ll just give one or two for them.
Seriously, there’s always going to be guys that missed out… no one even mentioned Willie le Roux who had an excellent season, CJ Stander who has been the stand out loosie for the Bulls for the past month or so, Steven Kitshoff who has been one of the most consistent looseheads this season. Robert Ebersohn, some my argue also showed that he won’t let the Bok squad down and is one of the only outright 13′s left in this country.
Piet van Zyl, Josh Struass, Minnie, Sadie, Whitehead, Sykes… al players who could potentially have been called on to do a job for the Boks.
We’re never going to agree 100% with Bok selections, but at least the guys that has been selected that we don’t really agree with either has some experience, or they are new young players who we all can agree has a lot of potential and we should all be so happy that Heyneke is willing to give these guys a shot.
@Letgo (Comment 66) : Good points.
I wouldn’t care a damn if he’d chosen players on ‘form’ !
Its pretty clear the players that are their that have made the mood the way it is.
HM is praying that he gets through this 3 test match series with his preffered 22 imo.