Richard Ferguson

Working with what we have


Written by Richard Ferguson (Richard Ferguson)

Posted in :End of Year Tour, Original Content, Springboks on 30 Oct 2013 at 10:04
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The Springboks start their End of year tour against Wales next Saturday, only two weeks after a brutal Currie Cup Final. With Wales being the current Six Nations champions, and the first match on the tour, I think this might very well be our toughest assignment.

My thinking here is simple, it is the first match in very different conditions, and there are bound to be a host of new combinations that will take a half to find their rhythm. The Springboks may have a fair bit of confidence on their side, but so too will Wales. It is sure to be a low scoring, tight affair.

With that in mind, how do we approach putting together a team to do battle? This is not the test in which to try new combinations and give a host of players their first caps, but also not the test to just use the same team from the Rugby Championship, as there are only three tests after all, and we need to make best use of all of them. So quite a balancing act.

Against the Welsh, I would use my most experienced front row, being that of Beast Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis and Jannie du Plessis. If they can set the tone in the first half, it will allow the Boks to use their entire benched front row in the second half. A fresh front row will do wonders for our set pieces, especially the scrums.

Eben Etzebeth is a must in the second row. He has been a rock in that position all season, and is one of the first names on the teamsheet. His partner is debatable. Do we use Bakkies Botha to soften the Welsh up before allowing Piet-Steph du Toit to come on and wreak havoc, or do we entrust du Toit with a starting cap and allow Bakkies to do the damage in the second half. Personally, I would give du Toit the start.

The loose forward combination will again see some heated debate, but I would simply go for the tried and tested. We know a combination of Francois Louw, Willem Alberts and Duane Vermeulen is the best, so we might as well start with them and allow someone like Siya Kolisi to run amok later in the match.

For the half backs, there isn’t much to choose from at scrumhalf, but if fit, Fourie du Preez will be my first choice here. He has shown to be the better scrumhalf in recent matches, although starting Pienaar in his home conditions might have some merit. It is a toss up for me, but du Preez will get the nod in my mind. As for flyhalf, my opinion on this is well known, I would allow Morne Steyn to play the first half and Pat Lambie the second half. Whether that actually happens, remains to be seen (with Johan Goosen in the mix).

The rest of the backline looks set to see changes from the Rugby Championship, with the return of Jaque Fourie and JP Pietersen set to bolster the team. A combination of Jean de Villiers and Jaque Fourie in midfield really excites me, with Jan Serfontein allowed to slot inside Fourie later in the match. As for the back three, Pietersen in combination with Bryan Habana and Willie le Roux should be very exciting. Although European conditions do not allow for an expansive game, le Roux’s explosive counter attacking can catch slower teams off guard.

So here it, my own starting fifteen to take on Wales next week:

15. Willie le Roux, 14. JP Pietersen, 13. Jaque Fourie, 12. Jean de Villiers, 11. Bryan Habana, 10. Morne Steyn, 9. Fourie du Preez, 8. Duane Vermeulen, 7. Willem Alberts, 6. Francois Louw, 5. Eben Etzebeth, 4. Pieter-Steph du Toit, 3. Jannie du Plessis, 2. Bismarck du Plessis, 1. Tendai Mtawarira.

Subs: 16. Adriaan Strauss, 17. Coenie Oosthuizen, 18. Frans Malherbe, 19. Bakkies Botha, 20. Siya Kolisi, 21. Ruan Pienaar, 22. Pat Lambie, 23. Jan Serfontein.



95 Comments

  • To an extent, I agree with Steyn Starting, but if Lambie has a good second half I would go with him for the second test, if he has a great second test, I would even start him against the French – no reason not to, Lambie thrives on pressure situations and I believe he won’t let the team down.

  • Comment 1, posted at 30.10.13 10:14:50 by Letgo Reply
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  • Hey Rich, isn’t it enough that WP lost to us in the final, now you have to call Jean de Villiers Jane!

  • Comment 2, posted at 30.10.13 10:16:00 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 1) :

    I would start Lambie against Scotland whatever second half he has against Wales..

    I would make changes to the front row and the halfbacks for the Scotland test..

  • Comment 3, posted at 30.10.13 10:16:34 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • Not a bad team… and I don’t think you are far off. I just wonder if HM will start with the guys like Jaque Fourie,JPP, and Bakkies. Sure we all know that they are pure class, but they have been out of the mix (More competitive that is…ok maybe not Bakkies) for some time now. Or does that fact actually count in their favour.

    Anyway, does anyone know when they will depart for the European shores?

  • Comment 4, posted at 30.10.13 10:17:12 by Farlington Reply

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  • @Letgo (Comment 2) :

    Apologies

  • Comment 5, posted at 30.10.13 10:17:37 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Farlington (Comment 4) :

    On Friday if memory serves..

  • Comment 6, posted at 30.10.13 10:18:42 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • Rich, I think this is an excellent team and probably close to what HM will pick – I’m still against 5 “foreigners” in the starting team, thus I would switch a couple of the overseas based players for a couple of local players.

    It’s a tough one though, because most of these guys are probably continuing to sign with overseas based clubs, because they know how valuable they’ve become to the team. JPP and Jaque back in the backline!!! And Fourie to control the game.

    It’s hard to replace 5 guys just like that. But there will be more in the future if HM continues to select them. To me, that’s just sad.

  • Comment 7, posted at 30.10.13 10:21:56 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 5) :
    That was just funny.

  • Comment 8, posted at 30.10.13 10:22:41 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 3) :

    Cool!

    As far as the front row goes, I think Beast and Jannie needs some rest, so good call on second test. Plus, it’s really important that HM settles on the best replacement frontrow. I don’t think Coenie and Guthrow is it, especially with them both being looseheads. I would go Malherbe 3 and Coenie 1, probably with Strauss, but Bissie hasn’t played that much this year.

  • Comment 9, posted at 30.10.13 10:26:13 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 7) :

    I don’t have a problem with overseas players in the squad.

    The game is fully professional and I am in favour of South Africans plying their trade wherever they want to. It makes it easier to build an even bigger base within South Africa, because there are only 5 teams of 25 players, which allows for 125 players in South Africa. If we have another 50 odd all over the World, we have one of the biggest player bases to choose from.

    Just my 2 cents..

  • Comment 10, posted at 30.10.13 10:26:21 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • I won’t mind that team at all, but I have a bad feeling we will see Zane at 15, Guthro at loosehead cover, Coenie at reserve tighthead and Bakkies starting ahead of PSDT – meaning either Serfontein / Willie could loose out.

  • Comment 11, posted at 30.10.13 10:27:14 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • Jean de Villiers also needs a rest, so possibly a Fourie, Lambie, Jan, Jacque combination for the second test, where the two young guys can be sandwiched by to of the best in their positions.

  • Comment 12, posted at 30.10.13 10:28:35 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Bokhoring (Comment 11) :

    Yeah look, I wasn’t trying to guess Heyneke’s team, I was merely putting out there what I would like to see, considering some of the selections he is likely to make.

    Zane in the team would be a mistake in my eyes, and it would be very difficult for Heyneke to warrant dropping Willie and leaving JP Pietersen out of the squad..

    But yes, I also think we might see Guthro in there..

  • Comment 13, posted at 30.10.13 10:29:29 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 13) : I expect roughly this 22:

    15. Zane Kirchner, 14. JP Pietersen, 13. Jaque Fourie, 12. Jean de Villiers, 11. Bryan Habana, 10. Morne Steyn, 9. Fourie du Preez, 8. Duane Vermeulen, 7. Willem Alberts, 6. Francois Louw, 5. Eben Etzebeth, 4. Bakkies Botha, 3. Jannie du Plessis, 2. Bismarck du Plessis, 1. Tendai Mtawarira.

    Subs: 16. Adriaan Strauss, 17. Guthro Steenkamp, 18. Coenie Oosthuizen, 19. PSDT, 20. Siya Kolisi, 21. Ruan Pienaar, 22. Pat Lambie, 23. Willie le Roux.

  • Comment 14, posted at 30.10.13 10:36:07 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 10) :

    That’s a very good argument for overseas based players and I completely see your point. Maybe I’m just holding on to “the old days” too much, but I still fear the day when the 5 or 6 teams playing in South Africa has non of the best players in them anymore, baring a few young players coming onto the scenes. Pieter-Steph du Toit, for example, will still play for the Sharks, but by the time he has cemented his place in the Springbok team (which I think will be really soon), he will leave.

    Jannie and Bissie would have been long gone and Beast. Etzebeth can also now go, we won’t leave him out of a Sprinbok team. Alberts, Duane, Spies, De Villiers (and as soon as Jan cements his place there he will go), Willie.

    Maybe I’m selfish, but I want to see these players play in South Africa.

    Also if you believe this trend of playing overseas is the ‘professional’ way to go, then does that make Australia and New Zealand behind the trend?

    I fear that it will badly influence the South African rugby scene, as well as the quality of the Sprinbok team.

    Also, like I said, I want to see the best players playing in South Africa.

  • Comment 15, posted at 30.10.13 10:38:35 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Bokhoring (Comment 14) :

    Yeah, that cannot be too far off, unless he wants Serfontein on the bench in case Fourie isn’t completely match fit.

    But agreed, that is a very likely 23 that!

  • Comment 16, posted at 30.10.13 10:40:25 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 15) :

    There is an argument for only playing locally based players, similar to what New Zealand has enforced. I do not think they are behind as such, but I fear this may cause problems going forward. What it will do, as the economic factors continue to increase, is that it would be great to play a few games for the All Blacks, make name and then go overseas to make the money. That will require their selectors to start afresh every couple of years. You will no longer see players reaching 100 caps, as it would not be financially viable for them..

    We have to remember that these guys have a playing career of 15 year max. In the 15 years, they have to make sure they make enough money to sort them out for the rest of their lives. Stopping the likes of Bryan Habana from earning Millions of pounds just to represent the Springboks, will quickly have players choosing money over the jersey.

    And in doing so, we are not only ruining the Springbok jersey, but also out viewing pleasure, having to deal with a below par, far from the best fifteen playing and potentially losing..

  • Comment 17, posted at 30.10.13 10:45:25 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 15) : Yeah – I can see this having a major effect on Super rugby. If I was the 5 Super rugby unions I would put serious pressure on SARU to limit the selection of overseas players.

  • Comment 18, posted at 30.10.13 10:45:49 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 17) : I believe a balance should be set, i.e. a limit of 3-4 overseas players in the match 23.

    We could end up with 9 overseas plus 1 half-overseas (JPP) player in the match 23.

  • Comment 19, posted at 30.10.13 10:47:40 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Bokhoring (Comment 19) :

    I agree with a limit put in place, to a certain extent.

    Look at my team above, there are 6 overseas players in there, including JP Pietersen who stills plays Super Rugby. That leaves us with 5 in the team.

    That is a third of the team, that is not totally unfair, is it?

  • Comment 20, posted at 30.10.13 10:49:38 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 20) : I count 7 (Habana, Fourie, Steyn, du Preez, Louw, Bakkies, Pienaar) excluding JPP

  • Comment 21, posted at 30.10.13 10:54:03 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • I liek that team but I cant help but think that HM will include Zane Kirchner and Johan Goosen somewhere so there may be the surprise ommission

  • Comment 22, posted at 30.10.13 10:56:16 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 13) :

    It is a really tough one for me though, because I completely understand why players would want to play overseas. And in a way I’m totally for players doing so, but there has to me a few guidelines on which players will then receive the honor of playing for the Boks or not.

    For example, you could easily say a player playing overseas can be selected for the Bok team, but that they then have to return to South Africa to join a local team as soon as their contracts are up. So a player like Rory Kockett can leave (especially considering that he basically has and still don’t have any chance of being selected for the Springboks), but once he impresses overseas and gets selected, he honors his current contract and signs with a local team as soon as he can.

    I would also say, you can’t select players who has more than 2 years left on their contracts. So if players go, they should sign shorter deals. That way they can go overseas, experience the culture, but as soon as a Bok contract is offered, they come back to SA.

    Then the same would go for players already in the Springbok mix, you allow them to go, but only if they come back after a year or 2. Players like Fourie, Habana, Morne and Jacque obviously want to go and play out their careers overseas, so you let them do it, but you instill a rule that once a player has decided to go overseas, and will not return after 2 years (or whatever), they fall into a group of permanent overseas players and only a certain number of these players can be selected into the team. Let’s say 3. So these would be veterans that you would continue selecting only to give you the opportunity to find players that can replace them, while being groomed by the ‘overseas veterans”.

    Obviously some thought would have to go into this, but I think someone has to think of a way where it would benefit the players without disadvantaging the South African rugby scene. I just feel the way it is happening right now is to willy nilly. There needs to be some control over the situation.

  • Comment 23, posted at 30.10.13 10:58:06 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Bokhoring (Comment 21) :

    I was referring to only the starting fifteen, but quite right..

  • Comment 24, posted at 30.10.13 11:02:31 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • the team I would play vs wales;

    Beast
    Bismarck
    Jannie
    Bakkies
    Etzebeth
    Kolisi
    Coetzee
    Alberts
    Du Preez
    Lambie
    JPP
    JdV
    Serfontein
    Le Roux
    Kirchner

    16.Strauss
    17.Oosthuizen
    18.Aadrianse(spelling)
    19.Du Toit
    20.Vermulen
    21.Pienaar
    22.Steyn

  • Comment 25, posted at 30.10.13 11:02:51 by Talent Reply
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  • I realise aadrianse isnt in the squad ,but I couldnt remember the other TH props in the squad :lol: Malherbre as th?

  • Comment 26, posted at 30.10.13 11:04:13 by Talent Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 24) : Sure, but to me there should be a limit in the match 23. It should really just be the indispensable overseas based players that get selected — Habana, du Preez, Louw and possibly Fourie.

    I don’t count JPP as overseas as he still plays S15

    Otherwise we will end up like Argentina

  • Comment 27, posted at 30.10.13 11:07:14 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 25) :

    There’s so many things I disagree with, but you selected Lambie so I’m cool!

    Serfontein is an inside centre.

  • Comment 28, posted at 30.10.13 11:07:41 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 23) : Cut and dry, you don’t stay in SA you don’t play for the Boks. We arent only protecting our youth structures but we are also ensuring that they keep the capacity to play at Super Rugby standards. Whatever anyone says ,there isn’t a competition close to the tempo of Super Rugby.

  • Comment 29, posted at 30.10.13 11:08:02 by Talent Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 23) :

    I don’t agree..

    Francois Louw is one of the best loose forward South Africa has available, so why risk losing the ability to play him? Someone like Kockett, who has gone overseas and showed all the South African teams what they have been missing, should not be forced to come back. Why? It doesn’t make sense to punish someone for playing good rugby overseas, to come back to South Africa?

  • Comment 30, posted at 30.10.13 11:11:03 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 25) :

    You would willingly include Zane Kirchner in your squad?

    I don’t have words..

  • Comment 31, posted at 30.10.13 11:12:04 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 29) :

    Well, that’s how New Zeeland and the Aussies feel right now, so I can’t say that I’m not leaning towards that a little, but given that we want our players to be happy and we can’t compete with other currencies, I think it would be smart to work out a good system where the players and South African rugby can benefit.

  • Comment 32, posted at 30.10.13 11:12:31 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Bokhoring (Comment 27) :

    Indispensable in whose eyes?

    If you look at this team, Bakkies, Fourie, Pienaar, Steyn, Habana, Kirchner, Guthro – they are all indispensable the Heyneke.

    The rule cannot be a variable such as that..

  • Comment 33, posted at 30.10.13 11:13:45 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 28) : An inside center for the Bulls basically means you are a glorified wing :lol:

    I know, but the calls are mostly tactical. Kirchner hasn’t been bad ,the guys cops unfair criticism ,not the most accurate player but he makes up for that with commitment and heart.

  • Comment 34, posted at 30.10.13 11:14:12 by Talent Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 31) : yes

  • Comment 35, posted at 30.10.13 11:14:34 by Talent Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 29) :

    Just a question:

    Are we not doing our youth structures a favour by allowing players to leave? Can we then not push the youngsters into senior squads sooner, as there will be space?

  • Comment 36, posted at 30.10.13 11:15:28 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 30) :

    So it’s a punishment to play in South Africa? (I know, I get what you’re saying regarding Kockett, because he couldn’t buy a start with the Sharks and the Lions for a while, but still).

    They don’t have to play for the Boks. It will be up to them. Btw, I read somewhere that Rory said that he would gladly come back to South Africa if he knew he had a chance of playing for the Boks.

  • Comment 37, posted at 30.10.13 11:16:00 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 32) : Have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

  • Comment 38, posted at 30.10.13 11:17:49 by Talent Reply
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  • I would to see how quickly the tune changes once Pat Lambie or Bismarck du Plessis decides to go overseas..

    You simply cannot completely exclude a player who plays overseas from an international team..

  • Comment 39, posted at 30.10.13 11:17:54 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 33) :

    Then you’d have to pick your most indescribable according to the limit of foreign based players. If all 15 starting players for this weekend signed a contract overseas tomorrow, although they are clearly all somewhat indispensable, Heyneke would have to make a decision on who’s really indispensable and who he can let go.

  • Comment 40, posted at 30.10.13 11:18:51 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 37) :

    There is an economic principal which states that if you earn a certain salary, you will end up spending all of it, no matter what you earn.

    So for a player to go overseas and get a much bigger salary than in South Africa, for him to come back would be a punishment, as he would not earn close to the same salary as before..

  • Comment 41, posted at 30.10.13 11:19:29 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 36) : Those players don’t have the benefit of learning from senior players ,so all the investment in these players is lost.

    If we look at the Ausies ,their young team may be struggling because there are few players with the miles behind them to guide a team. They don’t know how to win ugly ,all the seem to do is stick to what they know.

  • Comment 42, posted at 30.10.13 11:22:33 by Talent Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 40) :

    So if every single Bok signed an overseas contract, you would have only five back and play the other 18 as newbies?

    Scotland would punish us if that was the case, nevermind Wales and France

  • Comment 43, posted at 30.10.13 11:23:25 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 42) :

    Fair point..

  • Comment 44, posted at 30.10.13 11:24:14 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 39) : The difference is when you have 10 to 15 players playing abroad who could challenge for a starting spot ,when on form and up to speed, how does that not disrupt things? as opposed to the PDV days where we had maybe 2 playing overseas. Players would return to SA if they wanted to be a part of the Springboks.

  • Comment 45, posted at 30.10.13 11:26:25 by Talent Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 33) : He has to choose the 3-4 most indispensable players in his mind. I just named the ones I could think to be for the moment.

    Just thinking about it, the selection of Louw resulted in SA losing 2 players – himself and Brussow who only went to Japan as he could see he was clearly not in HM’s plans.

    Unfortunately I am expecting Lambie to head overseas soon, as he can also see that HM does not rate him at all. That would have a huge impact on the Sharks.

  • Comment 46, posted at 30.10.13 11:28:30 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 36) :

    South African rugby has already suffered. We only have 5 strong teams with the smaller unions really suffering, not to mention the Cheetahs and more recently the Lions who really has been pushed as far as selecting competitive squads go. Stronger unions lose players to overseas clubs and we buy new ones from the weaker unions (financially weaker that is).

    Do you think the Bulls benefited from losing all the players they have in the past few years. For the first time in I don’t know how long, they weren’t part of the Currie Cup semi-finals and might as well not have been part of the Currie Cup altogether with the way they competed. Arno Botha, Jacques Potgieter, Dewald Potgieter, Chilliboy and Vermaak, could have made a huge difference to how they fared, add to that Morne, Kirchner and Kruger who won’t play Super Rugby next year and the Bulls are in real shit.

    But who are they going to replace these players with? Youngsters? I doubt it, they’ve already bought up Piet van Zyl and a couple of Kings players, and don’t think they won’t continue picking up players from other teams until they can contest again.

    I don’t see the large amount of veteran or settled players leaving as a good thing at all. There should be more control over it. Players are free to leave and play where they want when they want, but then they fall out of contention for Bok selection.

  • Comment 47, posted at 30.10.13 11:29:32 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 43) :

    I don’t think every single Bok will sign overseas if I tell them that’s what will happen, but I’ll take the punishment in that one game or even a few others to show players that it’s not an option to leave and play for the Boks.

    I feel that is what is needed to keep South African rugby strong. I might be wrong. This is just my opinion on the matter. I don’t think it will be healthy for South African rugby if more and more players leave to play overseas.

  • Comment 48, posted at 30.10.13 11:31:52 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 47) : That is why the Kiwis are so strict in this regard. They know if they allowed this free for all we have at the moment, their Super Rugby teams will suffer. Once the Super teams suffer, the All Blacks will suffer in turn.

  • Comment 49, posted at 30.10.13 11:32:13 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 34) :

    You like him. I think that’s a first on this site. I think we have better. Maybe not better for right now, but certainly with some game time a few would be miles better than him.

    Zane is mostly safe and solid, but has to many shortcomings to continually be picked before other young talented players.

  • Comment 50, posted at 30.10.13 11:34:06 by Letgo Reply
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  • Stats show zane made 2nd most meters with ball in hand during rugbychamps. Jdv is captain he will play every game, just like mcaw. Think flip might start in nr5 jersey with psteff off the bench. Will like to see willie in nr15 with habana and jp on both sides of him. M steyn still our first flyhalf, now and till worldcup, changing ur nr10 with 20 games before next worldcup is STUPID!

  • Comment 51, posted at 30.10.13 11:34:18 by KingsArmy Reply

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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 31) : Maybe im being sentimental ,because it really gets my back up when players are criticized for ulterior motives ,other than their Rugby ability. Is he Israel Dag?No. Does he deserve the rap he gets from South Africans ?No.

  • Comment 52, posted at 30.10.13 11:37:42 by Talent Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 50) : :mrgreen: yes thanks ,that more or less how I feel.

  • Comment 53, posted at 30.10.13 11:39:12 by Talent Reply
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    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Bokhoring (Comment 49) :

    I just thought of another clause you can add to your overseas player quota. When a player has played for the Boks for a certain number of years, they can be given the option to sign overseas and play for the Boks. This way you reward players who has given a lot to SA rugby.

    Like I said, it just has to be controlled. Think of the best ways to benefit the players (especially guys like Fourie and Jacque) that has put so much into the game in South Africa. Since we probably can’t pay them as much as we would like (or as much as quality rugby players of their standard would get paid anywhere else in the world) we can easily think of deals that would benefit these players and South African rugby.

  • Comment 54, posted at 30.10.13 11:42:01 by Letgo Reply
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  • One suggestion I heard that I think has some merit, is only picking overseas based players who have a certain number of Springbok caps already, say around 40.

    This would mean, that in order to stay eligible for selection, you would have to play in SA until you’ve played enough.

    Players will have to pay their dues to the Springboks in order to earn a nice pay check overseas.

  • Comment 55, posted at 30.10.13 11:44:16 by 13 Reply

    13Under 19 player
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 54) : Yes, I am sure some reasonable system can be worked out that would be fair to the players, and still keep some carrot to keep younger players in the Super competition.

    This free-for-all we have right now is just going to cause major problems.

  • Comment 56, posted at 30.10.13 11:46:36 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 54) :

    Basically what I’m suggesting, except you beat me to it.

  • Comment 57, posted at 30.10.13 11:46:59 by 13 Reply

    13Under 19 player
     
  • My team vs. what I think Meyer will pick (for Wales):

    1. Beast – Beast
    2. du Plessis – du Plessis
    3. Malherbe – du Plessis
    4. Etzebeth – Etzebeth
    5. du Toit – du Toit
    6. Louw – Louw
    7. Alberts – Alberts
    8. Vermeulen – Vermeulen
    9. du Preez – du Preez
    10. Lambie – Steyn
    11. Habana – Habana
    12. de Villiers – de Villiers
    13. Fourie – Fourie
    14. Pietersen – Pietersen
    15. le Roux – Kirchner

    16. Strauss – Strauss
    17. Oosthuizen – Steenkamp
    18. du Plessis – Oosthuizen
    19. Botha – Botha
    20. Coetzee – Kolisi
    21. Schreuder – Pienaar
    22. Steyn – Lambie
    23. Serfontein – Serfontein

    I reckon he will use the weather as an excuse to pick Kirchner ahead of le Roux. I very much hope he does not.

  • Comment 58, posted at 30.10.13 11:52:23 by David12246 Reply

    ApolloCurrie Cup player
     
  • There are arguments for picking only SA based players and arguments for selecting anyone. In my opinion the Boks should pick from anyone, playing anywhere that qualifies for SA provided they are good enough. In my view rugby is a profession just like a banker, doctor, lawyer etc. So as a professional they should be able to seek the best employment available to them. Whether that means the best money, best climate, family life whatever. These professionals are still South Africans- their nationality doesnt change because you live somewhere else. Each player selected would give his best for his National side. I for one wouldnt like to see our National side ranked 8th in the world because we are too pig headed to pick overseas based players that are streaks ahead of guys playing here. Having said that- just because a guy gets paid millions to play overseas doesnt automatically make him a better player than a local player. Just as my stance on quotas- pick the best South African players irrespective of colour, religion or place of residence!

  • Comment 59, posted at 30.10.13 11:56:43 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Talent (Comment 45) :

    How is there not disruption when a team is made up of players playing for different unions locally?

  • Comment 60, posted at 30.10.13 11:58:32 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Bokhoring (Comment 46) :

    Brussow wouldn’t be in the squad even if Francois Louw didn’t exist, he is simply not in Heyneke’s plan.

    I think it was a great move for him to leave

  • Comment 61, posted at 30.10.13 11:59:47 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 52) :

    Is there better in this country? Yes..

    But you make valid points..

  • Comment 62, posted at 30.10.13 12:01:22 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 54) :
    @13 (Comment 55) :

    That system has merit, but again, what happens in the case of Kockett, is he simply lost to the country as a whole?

  • Comment 63, posted at 30.10.13 12:03:11 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 59) :

    I kinda agree with you on that.. But it seems we are in the minority..

  • Comment 64, posted at 30.10.13 12:04:55 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 59) :

    I’m glad you mentioned that you feel it is like a business. If SA rugby is a business, is it really best for your company to let your best employees leave? Keeping in mind that South African rugby is more than just the Springboks. If unions suffer – that would include, quality of players, which would or could effect quality of rugby, which could influence the financial situations of unions – then South African rugby suffers.

    Again, I’m not saying it will, but the possibility has to be considered and a plan to prevent it put in place.

    If you’re a business, you would definitely not let your employees just leave and go where ever they want, you would have a much bigger hand in who goes where. So speaking from a business point of view, it is definitely not a good options to let players do what they want.

  • Comment 65, posted at 30.10.13 12:08:47 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 63) : As an individual player there is merit in his case. However in the bigger scheme of things (such as keeping the Sharks and other S15 brands strong) he will just have to loose out based on the decisions he made.

  • Comment 66, posted at 30.10.13 12:16:51 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Bokhoring (Comment 66) :

    I hear what you are saying, but cases like that mean the Springbok team is not the strongest possible team.

    Do you see what I am getting at?

  • Comment 67, posted at 30.10.13 12:18:30 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 65) : SA franchises cannot compete with the French clubs money wise – so we have to use the only carrot we have – the honour to represent your country – as a bargaining chip.

  • Comment 68, posted at 30.10.13 12:18:39 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • I agree with your team Rich, but I believe HM will play PSDT at 5 and Ezebeth at 4.

  • Comment 69, posted at 30.10.13 12:20:26 by SeanyJMc Reply

    SeanyJMcVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 63) :

    Or Brussouw for that matter and now Ebersohn. What about Louw?

    I don’t think so. Like I said, I’m not completely against picking overseas based players, but they have to be willing to play in SA if we pick them. That’s how I feel about it.

    There are a few players who have been left out in the cold by Bok selectors and Louws decision to play sign for an overseas club was clearly a good one, but did he need to resign? You could easily have signed a 2 year deal with the Stormers, or whoever, which would have kept him in South Africa until the World Cup. If he falls out of favor again, he can then leave again.

    Same for Kockett. Like I said, I believe he would have come back if Heyneke selected him for this tour. He’s held out to sign a contract with any French teams, but apparently if Heyneke does not select him, he’s gunning for a French jersey.

  • Comment 70, posted at 30.10.13 12:21:54 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 67) : It is a case of balancing the two – to have the best players playing, while at the same time not screwing up the local franchises.

    In the long term it will weaken Bok rugby too if the Super teams are devalued. You can see the major difference in quality the Boks brought to the Currie Cup. Now imagine trying to play without many of those in the S15

  • Comment 71, posted at 30.10.13 12:22:16 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 63) :

    Also, I don’t think it is that bad if one or two players end up not playing for SA, if fewer are doing it, because they know they can’t be selected overseas.

    If Louw is not selected someone else will step up. Another scrummy will put up his hand soon. It’s not a train smash. It’s quite a different story if 8 players leave from every South African franchise, every other season, because they know their chances of Bok selection is just as good when they play overseas.

    Plenty of players has played overseas in the past and was then brought back just to play for the Boks, case in point – Percy Montgomery. You could say he was lost to SA rugby, but then he came back and played for the Sharks … and by the way Percy came back a better player, who did a lot for the Sharks.

  • Comment 72, posted at 30.10.13 12:26:46 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 70) :

    I hear you say that he can always just go back again.

    There is something that we are not taking into consideration here, that is the fact that a player has a family, most likely a wife working somewhere, or a kid in school.

    Making someone pick up and leave a life behind is easier said than done..

  • Comment 73, posted at 30.10.13 12:30:24 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • I support the Boks and the Sharks, and I want a system that is good for both. At the moment this current system is bad for the Sharks in the long run – just look at what happened to the Bulls this year.

  • Comment 74, posted at 30.10.13 12:33:17 by Bokhoring Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 65) : Yes it is a business. But a business needs to attract, retain and motivate its employees. And unfortunately in this day and age money plays a big factor in that. But remember these Bok players are not all contracted to SARU. So it would be mostly the Unions having to fork out large sums of money to pay these guys what the overseas teams will pay them. And its all well and good to say if you leave then you cant play but not having the best team and possibly losing games will also have a significant effect on the Springbok brand.

  • Comment 75, posted at 30.10.13 12:39:50 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @13 (Comment 55) :

    That much I agree with! They must earn the right to be picked from abroad, by doing the hard-yards at home first.

    @Richard Ferguson (Comment 63) :

    Kockott left SA because he was playing second-fiddle to Ruan Pienaar and Jano Vermaak (who if he continues where he left off on Saturday…. in a few months time will be among the best in the top 14, then it’ll ‘Rory who?’).

  • Comment 76, posted at 30.10.13 12:42:05 by Mpandla Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 73) : You know this problem would be a lot easier to solve if the countries top 50 players were centrally contracted. SARU can then build sabbatical clauses in their contracts allowing them 6months to play overseas every 2years etc. much like the All Blacks have done. This would create incentive for all SA players to be 1 of the 50 centrally conctacted. It would also allow the spread of talent among the Super rugby sides etc.

  • Comment 77, posted at 30.10.13 12:44:46 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 60) : Conflicting seasons ,conditioning ,travel fatigue ,disconnect with the way the game is played at home and a lot more…

  • Comment 78, posted at 30.10.13 13:13:33 by Talent Reply
    Author
    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 77) :

    Agree, but that is a pipe-dream!

    Our current administrators cannot even arrange a meeting, nevermind a system that works.

  • Comment 79, posted at 30.10.13 13:14:33 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 78) :

    Hear what you are saying, but it is no worse than playing different styles within South Africa.

    Travel fatigue is really not such a big issue, we already have 7 or 8 of the players waiting in Europe, and there is very little time difference anyway..

  • Comment 80, posted at 30.10.13 13:17:23 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 79) : Unfortunately until they can get their act together they will have to select foreign based players or risk the value of the Springbok brand by only picking local players.

  • Comment 81, posted at 30.10.13 13:37:00 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 80) : I know ,but earlier this season ,before a decisive RC game ,we had players travelling for club commitments and missing practices(if memory serves me right).

    Different game plans aren’t the problem, in fact it allows a national team to vary its game play to nullify opposition strengths and expose their weaknesses .Problems occur when players are not exposed to trends in top flight rugby(Super Rugby); a season or two ago the SBW offload created havoc in defenses and only through exposure to it we learnt to defend it.

    In Northern Hemisphere Rugby the margin for defensive error is slightly larger(in club games at least-where our players get game time), this is no indictment on the proficiency of their Rugby but rather a comparison of the style and tempo that the respective hemispheres operate at, as a result players are one or two steps behind tier one Rugby(being a test match against the All Blacks). You could argue that Louw and Du Preez were hugely influential in the RC ,which they were ,but in the final two test of our campaign they both went missing slightly into the game when the tempo was elevated…

  • Comment 82, posted at 30.10.13 13:48:15 by Talent Reply
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    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • It won’t be long before bosvark, jannie, beast, alberts, deysel and one or two others play for overseas clubs……then we’ll see who cries!! I like the idea of players with a certain amount of caps being aloud to leave, that keeps our clubs strong but it doesn’t keep the younger players out for to long…..

  • Comment 83, posted at 30.10.13 15:12:56 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • What a joke, we have JJ setting the benchmark with his display at 13 for the Boks in that last test against NZ, where he stepped Cruden, ran through Conrad Smith and then sublimely attacked Savea’s inside shoulder and then beat him on the inside to throw a perfect inside pass to Willie to set him up for what should have been a sure try and you want to replace him with a 32 year old Fourie – what a laugh.

    Why on earth would you want to retain the bog ordinary Steyn at 10 when you have Lambie on fire?

  • Comment 84, posted at 30.10.13 15:13:32 by Saffex Reply

    SaffexCurrie Cup player
     
  • Keep the South African talent pipeline strong: no foreign players in the Bok team.

  • Comment 85, posted at 30.10.13 15:16:08 by Big Fish Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 73) :

    Well maybe in Kockett’s case one have to be able to give the player some sort of guarantee before asking them to come back to play in SA. So you can’t just pick them to get them back in SA and then drop them again. Schalk Britz was picked last year, it would have been wrong to force him to get a contract in South Africa. I think Flouw is firmly in Heyneke’s plans though, he should have been asked to get a contract in SA.

  • Comment 86, posted at 30.10.13 15:43:56 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Saffex (Comment 84) : I think what allot of people don’t realize is that McLeod helps Lambie fire, I am yet to see a game where Lambie plays like he has the past few weeks with another person passing the ball to him.

  • Comment 87, posted at 30.10.13 16:25:37 by Uli Reply
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  • @Uli (Comment 87) : that’s a very good point. Lambie’s best performances have ALWAYS been outside a top-form McLeod.

  • Comment 88, posted at 30.10.13 16:48:18 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
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  • Personally I have no problem with selecting overseas based players. If they are the best for the Springbok then they should be selected. The bigger the pool of players we can choose from for the Boks the better IMO.

    Another positive is that as players move abroad, a gap opens for a new talent to prove his worth. We’ve got a great bunch of young players coming up all over the country in the u19 and u21s.

    For every one player that goes abroad there is one who fills the void. Example that comes to mind is that Cheslin is going to have a full super rugby competition to play as Habana is off to France. Habana will continue to play rugby, learn overseas, and be able to bring his exceptional skills to the Boks, all while been paid a huge amount at the expense of Toulon while WP develop the talents of Cheslin.

  • Comment 89, posted at 30.10.13 16:51:22 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 88) : And that illustrates the major difference between Morne and Lambie; Morne performs best outside a 9 who calls the shots, with him just executing, whereas Lambie shines outside a 9 who provides him with quick, clean ball so he can make the decisions and dictate play

  • Comment 90, posted at 30.10.13 19:11:58 by Culling Song Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 90) : you just hit that nail so squarely on the head that you probably broke your hammer :)

  • Comment 91, posted at 30.10.13 19:18:02 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 91) : Maybe I should change my name to Carpenter Song?

  • Comment 92, posted at 30.10.13 19:45:22 by Culling Song Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 90) : If my memory serves me, we have never seen Lambie outside du Preez or at least not for more than a few minutes. I can’t imagine they would be anything less than what we have seen from them at their respective bests.

  • Comment 93, posted at 30.10.13 23:46:05 by David12246 Reply

    ApolloCurrie Cup player
     
  • You all know I care a lot more for our Currie Cup Champions than the Bokke, but I admit I`m excited to see JP Pietersen again. I wonder if he still ” got it ” ??

  • Comment 94, posted at 31.10.13 09:44:59 by Original Pierre Reply
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    Original PierreSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Original Pierre (Comment 94) : JP Pieterson is one of those players that seem to get better the more he plays so hope he has been playing a lot in Japan! Im very interested to see what shape and form Jacques Fourie is in…if he is in good shape id love to see him and Serfontein combine at some stage

  • Comment 95, posted at 31.10.13 11:34:55 by SheldonK Reply

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