robdylan

Back to the bench you go, Paddy!


Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :End of Year Tour, Original Content, Springboks on 20 Nov 2013 at 13:43
Tagged with : , , , , , ,

The Bok side to face France in Paris on Saturday has been named; Pat Lambie’s reward for a decent game at flyhalf in Edinburgh is a return to the bench, with Morne Steyn and Willie le Roux preferred at flyhalf and fullback respectively.

There’s netter news for Pieter-Steph du Toit, though. A surprising omission for the game at Murrayfield, the young lock has been included alongside Bakkies Botha as a second lock (or rather utility forward) replacement on the bench. Heyneke Meyer has opted to restore his first-choice tight five for this game, with Eben Etzebeth, Beast Mtawarira and Bismarck du Plessis all moving off the bench into the starting lineup. Coenie Oosthuizen will enjoy his first start at tighthead prop, replacing the injured Frans Malherbe, meaning an elevation to the matchday 23 for new Shark Lourens Adriaanse, who is set to make his test debut. Siya Kolisi is in for Marcell Coetzee in the final change to the forward contingent.

Ruan Pienaar starts for Fourdie du Preez at halfback, with Jano Vermaak moving onto the bench to join Lambie as one of just two backline reserves.

Boks:
15 Willie ler Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Jaque Fourie, 12 Jean de Villiers (capt), 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morne Steyn, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Duane Vermeuelen, 7 Willem Alberts, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Flip van der Merwe, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Coenie Oosthuizen, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira
16 Adriaan Strauss, 17 Gurthrö Steenkamp, 18 Lourens Adriaanse, 19 Bakkies Botha, 20 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 21 Siya kolisi, 22 Jano Vermaak, 23 Patrick Lambie



278 Comments

  • Let the navel-gazing begin! :mrgreen:

  • Comment 1, posted at 20.11.13 13:44:17 by vanmartin Reply
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  • All part of the master plan. :twisted:

  • Comment 2, posted at 20.11.13 13:45:59 by McLovin Reply

    McLovinAssistant coach
     
  • Only 2 backline players on the bench! Risky I think.

    Both Bakkies and PSdT on the bench. Will PSdT also be used as a loosie in this game?

  • Comment 3, posted at 20.11.13 13:48:36 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 3) :

    PSdT or Kolisi to cover wing and 13? :grin:

  • Comment 4, posted at 20.11.13 13:52:38 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 3) : That’s what I said.Glad Adriaanse gets a spot.
    @robdylan: What’s the netter news for Pieter-Steph? :lol:
    Will Bakkies be able to stay awake until he goes onto the field?Might be past his nap time! :grin: Overall the team looks good on paper, let’s see how they perform

  • Comment 5, posted at 20.11.13 13:57:22 by markm Reply

    markmUnder 21 player
     
  • @Pokkel (Comment 3) :
    Youll probably find with Alberts’ shoulder not 100%, HM wants a bigger ball carrier to cover the blind side flank position.
    Coetzee and Kolisi are more 6/hybrid type players.

    Bakkies will be there because of his knowledge and experience of French players and conditions.
    Probably our strongest side we could pick at the moment.

  • Comment 6, posted at 20.11.13 13:57:26 by John Galt Reply

    John GaltCurrie Cup player
     
  • 6/2 bench split? Ya that ball isnt going past 10 on Saturday! haha Hope Habana and JPP wear their kick chasing boots!

  • Comment 7, posted at 20.11.13 13:57:31 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKSuper Rugby player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 7) : Agree totally. Ruan will be skying the ball & Steyn kicking for territory.

  • Comment 8, posted at 20.11.13 13:59:56 by markm Reply

    markmUnder 21 player
     
  • Pretty much what I expected, accept for PSDT.

  • Comment 9, posted at 20.11.13 14:03:47 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • @Pokkel (Comment 4) : Showing Lambie’s utility player tag off!Vermaak has played on the wing before in a S15 game.Don’t know if that warrants his selection to cover the whole backline.Won’t need to replace the backline if HM’s plan works out of keeping the ball with the forwards> Genius,I tell you! :twisted:

  • Comment 10, posted at 20.11.13 14:07:17 by markm Reply

    markmUnder 21 player
     
  • @markm (Comment 10) : Unless the French forwards front up and our back line ends up defending for long periods.

  • Comment 11, posted at 20.11.13 14:09:22 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • @Bokhoring (Comment 11) : If the French forwards dominate then HM’s sole gameplan goes belly up and we are in serious trouble…

  • Comment 12, posted at 20.11.13 14:22:33 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKSuper Rugby player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 12) :

    Amen brother.

  • Comment 13, posted at 20.11.13 14:38:21 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • The frenchman knows what’s coming…..but there’s nothing they can do about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Comment 14, posted at 20.11.13 14:49:54 by KingsArmy Reply

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  • On friday night HM is gonna email them the gameplan and end it with…..stop us of u can!!

  • Comment 15, posted at 20.11.13 14:52:06 by KingsArmy Reply

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  • If jdv gets injured will lambie cover 12 or will we see a jfourie/jpp midfield??

  • Comment 16, posted at 20.11.13 15:00:54 by KingsArmy Reply

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  • @KingsArmy (Comment 15) : I like that! hahaha

  • Comment 17, posted at 20.11.13 15:01:55 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKSuper Rugby player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 12) :
    Yes and no.
    It could also mean that the guys are farking exhausted after a long season.
    Or that they just didn’t click on the day.

    But I get what youre trying to say.

  • Comment 18, posted at 20.11.13 15:11:58 by John Galt Reply

    John GaltCurrie Cup player
     
  • @John Galt (Comment 18) : That is what worries me that we are relying on guys that have been thru a long tough season, im hoping they have enough in reserve for 1 last push. but with his team selection we are clearing looking to play 1 way only. But mayb is suckers the french is trying to either take on our forwards or they try play too expansively and thereby make errors

  • Comment 19, posted at 20.11.13 15:20:36 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKSuper Rugby player
     
  • Maybe HM knows his guys are tired, and that’s why he selected almost a whole new forwardpack on the bench….8 forwards start, another 6 coming on in the 2nd half…..holy shit!!!! How many times have that happen before….

  • Comment 20, posted at 20.11.13 15:32:22 by KingsArmy Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 19) :
    What impresses me about HM at the moment is that he is playing according to conditions and player availability and also taking risks with player selection.
    I mean, who would have thought that he would have started Willie Le Roux and JJ this year?

    So in the Rugby Championship we played some great rugby, beating Aus in Aus for the first time in ages, scoring 4 tries against the ABs etc etc. Our game plan was not that 1 dimensional when we were playing on relatively dry surfaces and conditions.

    Now that we’re in the NH, he’s changed tack slightly and picked bigger, more experienced players for wet, slow, second rate pitches in order to grind out wins. And the Boks haven’t conceded a try this tour.
    I just hope that the French have better pitches because I would love to see that backline with good front foot ball.

  • Comment 21, posted at 20.11.13 15:34:36 by John Galt Reply

    John GaltCurrie Cup player
     
  • @John Galt (Comment 21) : Spot on bro!!

  • Comment 22, posted at 20.11.13 15:54:01 by KingsArmy Reply

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  • Lambie back on the bench… disappointing after 2 good games.
    To me, a 5-2 split on the bench made sense on occasion, but now that an extra forward is allowed, I don’t see why you would give up a back replacement for a 6th forward. I do hope du Toit gets a shot at 5 lock (not on the flank even though he is good there).

  • Comment 23, posted at 20.11.13 16:03:53 by David12246 Reply

    David12246Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @John Galt (Comment 21) : Yeh look i have been sceptical of some of HM’s selections and playing style but i cant argue that the Boks have looked good this year. The boks will always have brain implosions and do silly things, i guess we have to accept that and doubt any coach can fix it. I agree he is playing the NH conditions well so far and if this was the 1st match on tour i wouldnt have a problem. But with it being the last game i just hope the guys are up to it as the french will come out firing with a point to prove. I still would love to see our forwards run off 10 not 9, think that little change would make the Boks so dangerous.

  • Comment 24, posted at 20.11.13 16:05:18 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKSuper Rugby player
     
  • Lambie is back on the bench because the Boks are attempting to beat France in France for the first time since 1997 and end the year with an A on the report card – last achieved who knows when. That means the number 1 flyhalf who has been in magnificent form in 2013 returns and the MOTM from last weekend rightfully retains his spot.

    Lambie’s versatility off the bench being able to cover flyhalf, center and wing makes this a no-brainer.

    On what promises to be a cold (even icy) Stade with a late kick off the game will always only be won up-front, Heyneke is showing that he is able to adapt and not conform to ‘standards’ which is encouraging looking at his bench split.

  • Comment 25, posted at 20.11.13 18:11:56 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 25) : “That means the number 1 flyhalf who has been in magnificent form in 2013 returns” :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: maaaaagnificent form, the best Flyhalf we’ve ever had !The best tackler ,the best distributor ,the best most dynamic…magnificent :roll:

  • Comment 26, posted at 20.11.13 18:15:12 by Talent Reply
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  • If you miss as many tackles as Steyn does you should be dropped.

    Personally I have begun to accept Lambie being utilized off the bench and I’ve become okay with it, why? Making him play that shit Rugby will do nothing but damage his confidence, taint his approach to the game and his reputation.

    When you boys decide we need to play proper Rugby to beat the All Blacks, not this 9 man shit, it will be to late. Backwards we goooo…

  • Comment 27, posted at 20.11.13 18:18:28 by Talent Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 26) :

    Exactly what statistics are you looking at? Because we clearly have different sources of information of raw statistics specifically on defence.

    In addition, Steyn was the top points scorer in the Rugby Championship (RC) by quite some distance in 2013.

    Our points differential in the RC was also 1 point behind the All Blacks, having scored only 1 try less than them.

    I also seem to recall the Aussies who just love ‘pretty rugby’ selected Morne Steyn as the flyhalf of choice in their RC dream team.

  • Comment 28, posted at 20.11.13 18:41:28 by Morné Reply
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  • @KingsArmy (Comment 16) : In my opinion it would be best to have Lambie cover 12 as he is actually really good there, but HM would surely put Lambie on at 15, shift le Roux to 14, JP to 13 and Fourie to 12 (you would think that so much disruption would be disadvantageous).

    @Talent (Comment 27) : Preach

  • Comment 29, posted at 20.11.13 18:49:14 by David12246 Reply

    David12246Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 28) : Morné Steyn is a terrible defender. I have not met anybody who has denied that and provided valid evidence. Stats will tell some of the story, but not the whole story. Even if Steyn doesn’t technically miss a huge percentage of tackles, he doesn’t make many either because he shies away from it. Compare that to Lambie who makes an enormous amount of tackles, often above his weight and is successful.

  • Comment 30, posted at 20.11.13 18:52:30 by David12246 Reply

    David12246Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 28) : Furthermore, nobody denies that Steyn is a great goal kicker, but his talents don’t stretch far beyond that. Steyn was top points scorer in the championship because he was the only goal kicker used in the competition. Had the All Blacks done the same, they would be 4 points short.

  • Comment 31, posted at 20.11.13 18:55:31 by David12246 Reply

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  • @David12246 (Comment 30) :

    You have not met anybody to contest your perception on Steyn’s defence? I reckon you need to expand your circle of friends beyond Sharks supporters.

    And if stats does not tell the whole story, the basis of this belief is surely biased perception?

    I know exactly what site I am on but sometimes the ignorance is mind-boggling.

  • Comment 32, posted at 20.11.13 19:03:06 by Morné Reply
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  • @David12246 (Comment 30) :

    foxsports.com.au has some stats on this.

    MS has played in 194 halfs in his SR career, averaging 4.55 tackles per half and missing around 18%

    PL has played in 98 halfs, averaging 3.908 tackles per half and missing 15%

    You may compare MS with Dan Carter or any other back and you’ll find that both in number of tackles and success rate, he ranks with the best.

  • Comment 33, posted at 20.11.13 19:03:56 by fyndraai Reply

    fyndraaiCurrie Cup player
     
  • Furthermore, if Steyn is such a weak defender why do we not see a magnificent team like the All Blacks with their powerful runners continually target his channel but rather kick out of hand more than the Boks?

  • Comment 34, posted at 20.11.13 19:05:43 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 28) : If you think Steyn is a good defender you are not an observant man.

    He kicked at goal ,and was the only consistently starting flyhalf, which is why they chose him-they had no choice…

    Steyn is not a good Flyhalf…”his magnificent” :lol: .

  • Comment 35, posted at 20.11.13 19:06:53 by Talent Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 33) :

    These stats probably contains many errors, but once the tackle counts get in the hundreds, the errors are unlikely to cause much distortion or favour any player over another.

    Perceptions on the other hand…….

  • Comment 36, posted at 20.11.13 19:06:57 by fyndraai Reply

    fyndraaiCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 34) : Loose forwards cover that channel heavily. The All Blacks actually use their backline.

    Morne Steyn is a useless defender ,useless. What happened in the first Movement of the Wales game?

  • Comment 37, posted at 20.11.13 19:08:51 by Talent Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 35) :

    Observant? Depends on your position and shade of spectacles when you observe I suppose.

  • Comment 38, posted at 20.11.13 19:10:30 by Morné Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 36) : “These stats probably contains many errors” so why post them?

  • Comment 39, posted at 20.11.13 19:11:23 by Talent Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 37) :

    Funny, every objective analysis contests your point.

  • Comment 40, posted at 20.11.13 19:12:13 by Morné Reply
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  • Any case, time for me to knock off. Cheers.

  • Comment 41, posted at 20.11.13 19:13:55 by Morné Reply
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  • Ya go away. The guy cant tackle ,end of story.

  • Comment 42, posted at 20.11.13 19:16:57 by Talent Reply
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  • Morne, you’re wasting your breath mate.

    The obsession with Pat on these pages borders on the Indian adulation for Sachin Tendulkar.

    No amount of stats or objective analysis will ever suffice against people that “feel” Pat is the better player.

    Tackling for a flyhalf is a moot point anyway – the kiwis realised this, which is why Carter often doesnt stand in the 10 channel on defence, but rather on the wing.

  • Comment 43, posted at 20.11.13 19:29:23 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 39) :
    @fyndraai (Comment 36) : “These stats probably contains many errors” so why post them?

    Wow. You really cant see further than the end of your own nose.
    Maybe you weren’t able to read a sentence that is longer than two words?

    These stats probably contains many errors, but once the tackle counts get in the hundreds, the errors are unlikely to cause much distortion or favour any player over another.

    Thats why he posted it.

  • Comment 44, posted at 20.11.13 19:31:53 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • We’re in for a boring night with Lambie on the bench instead of starting at fly half. Morné misses most tackles and doesn’t make any – maybe he likes to keep his shorts clean! DEFINITELY Lambie and Morné should swap places. I’m glad PSDT and Lourens Adriaanse are at least on the bench.

  • Comment 45, posted at 20.11.13 19:57:54 by denese.newby@gmail.com Reply

    denese.newby@gmail.comCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 38) : @VinChainSaw (Comment 44) : Don’t waste your time trying to rip the blinkers off the blind ;)

  • Comment 46, posted at 20.11.13 20:29:35 by vanmartin Reply
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  • Come on guys, I’m not the biggest Meyer fan, but surely is a no-brainer that Lambie would be benched?

    Some perspective perhaps.

  • Comment 47, posted at 20.11.13 20:29:52 by Big Fish Reply
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  • @Big Fish (Comment 47) : When you’re going for a 6-2 split, one of your reserves either has to be Lambie or Frans Steyn. There’s are very few, if any, other options that provide you with the same amount of utility.

  • Comment 48, posted at 20.11.13 20:36:36 by vanmartin Reply
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  • Henry honeyball missed 1 out of 10 tackles but you wouldnt call him a poor tackler…. its more about tackle technique … invariably he would drive his vict back in the tackle… steyn brings his man down but with little oomph behind his tackle

  • Comment 49, posted at 20.11.13 21:05:36 by byron Reply

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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 44) : So you are allowed to have kinda accurate stats as long as they support what you think. :???:

    @Big Fish (Comment 47) : No ,I knew Lambie would be on the bench. I know Steyn is probably the best candidate for the piece of shit game plan we are playing. My problem is I dont believe Meyers game plan will take us to the top of the world and it infuriates me when I see people happy to languish at second; coincidentally those are the same people that are just happy if their team is playing their style of Rugby.

    I appreciate Meyer playing the conditions ,I have no problem with him bringing back world class players like Bakkies and Du Preez, but I will never tolerate mediocrity when we are capable of being the best.

    In order to be the best we need to tweak our philosophy/game plan and change some personal.We rely so much on goal kicking to keep us afloat but have a sloppy defensive system that is saved by good, tenacious scramble defense. We don’t threaten the worlds best because we scrape for penalties, against the team with the worst offender penalization ratio ,and then gift them soft tries.
    Our looseforwards are built for close combat stuff-not outside channel defense-where the All Blacks stuff us up.

  • Comment 50, posted at 20.11.13 21:20:43 by Talent Reply
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  • We dont defend well enough to completely suffocate the All Blacks ,but its alright because players like Kruger are needed in the line out and we dont have anyone else in south africa capable of kicking a ball…

  • Comment 51, posted at 20.11.13 21:23:58 by Talent Reply
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  • The way we play against the Kiwi’s -its like trying to eat soup with a fork- you’ll nail those little crouton fuckers but more got away than you planned for.

    Sorry for the PDV explanation, enjoy.

  • Comment 52, posted at 20.11.13 21:25:32 by Talent Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 52) :

    And how in the hell is that different from how we play Super Rugby, and that includes the Sharks?

    The ONLY team to win a Super Rugby title from SA did so by playing the ‘type’ of game the Boks did in 2009, and the AB’s themselves are doing right now.

    It absolutely boggles my mind how we firstly expect Meyer, as a national coach, to ‘experiment’ at test level when no Super Rugby coach does this over a 5-month competition choosing his best team week in and week out and secondly, change a ‘rugby philosophy’ we see every single bloody week in the Currie Cup and Super Rugby.

    Provincial bias is one thing, absolute ignorance is quite another.

  • Comment 53, posted at 20.11.13 23:09:24 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 53) : No no no ,we utilize parts of their tactics sparingly, as do most of the world. The difference is when quick ball is called for they can change from one mindset and tactic to a completely different one. It’s the All Blacks versatility that is their strength. Their ability to play the situation. OUR problem is we have players who are only equipped to play that way.

    We played some good Rugby in the RC, our back-line was fluid whenever Le Roux came into the first receiver role, otherwise we were flat footed.

  • Comment 54, posted at 20.11.13 23:48:55 by Talent Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 54) :

    Again, how is that different from how any of our teams play in Super Rugby currently?

    And for the record – how many times did Willie handle the ball as first receiver?

  • Comment 55, posted at 21.11.13 00:06:23 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 34) : Do you really honestly truly believe that Steyn is strong on defense? Do me a favor and pay close attention this weekend. If you still think he is strong on defense then go and join the nearest rugby club and play for a while. His defense is not aggressive at all! Watch a replay of the Wales match and see what a good defensive flyhalf looks like in LAMBIE. I’m not just being your typical biased Shark fan. If you know anything about rugby it is clear.

    @Morné (Comment 55) : Maybe not first receiver always, but also in the wider channels. Everything special we did in the RC was down to le Roux or one of the other outside backs (or FdP).

  • Comment 56, posted at 21.11.13 00:22:40 by David12246 Reply

    David12246Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @David12246 (Comment 56) :

    Do you believe Steyn is a liability on defence (more than any other flyhalf in SA)? If so, how? (Other than baseless perceptions of course).

    BTW I played and study enough rugby on a daily basis to go join a club at my age to test this theory. If you are talking about how you measure ‘attitude’ in defence I will be very interested to see how you judge and measure this and compare notes.

  • Comment 57, posted at 21.11.13 00:34:06 by Morné Reply
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  • @David12246 (Comment 56) :

    I’m mystified as to this obsession with defence in the first receiver channel.
    If I listed the qualities I was looking for in a flyhalf, it would be pretty far down the list, especially given the type of rugby we play.

    If that’s what you’re pinning the Lambie/Steyn argument on, then its no wonder we dont agree.

    The Boks are blessed with awesome tackling forwards – there’s no need to put your playmaker in harm’s way.

  • Comment 58, posted at 21.11.13 00:58:39 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 58) : So defense isn’t important? And it’s the only thing Lambie does better than Steyn? :shock: Wait ,you’ll lie now too.

  • Comment 59, posted at 21.11.13 01:37:45 by Talent Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 55) : The one time he did, that I recall, the end result was a try.

    Sadly, this year we saw many team resort to driving mauls and forward based Rugby. The Cheetahs however didn’t and look where they were-shit not even the Bulls stuck to it like the Boks are doing now.

    There isn’t anything wrong with scoring off set piece and grinding the pick and drives. Our problem is what we do when we get an opportunity to use quick ruck ball; we send it to Alberts or Vermulen and kill momentum.

  • Comment 60, posted at 21.11.13 01:42:27 by Talent Reply
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  • or it go’s to Steyn and he kicks it away.

  • Comment 61, posted at 21.11.13 01:43:44 by Talent Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 58) : Are you blind? Or are you just trolling me hard :lol:

  • Comment 62, posted at 21.11.13 01:52:26 by Talent Reply
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  • Im really not sure what this constant debate is all about. Steyn is without doubt HM’s number 1. His goal kicking is fundamental to HM’s gameplan. Yes Lambie may be more creative but he does miss crucial kicks which is why he is on the bench- to come on a try be creative if it is needed. I have no problem with Steyn at 10. Yes he doesnt smash people on defense but neither does any flyhalf in SA. And its not like Lambie is 30yrs old! Wait your turn and it will come if you keep your standards high.

  • Comment 63, posted at 21.11.13 08:01:55 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKSuper Rugby player
     
  • At the moment Steyn is the number 1, because he is the bankable kicker. That is the foremost job of a Bok 10. Until Lambie can up his kicking stats to be as reliable, he will be the deputy. The Boks are using 9 to direct the traffic, and when they do attack from broken play it is usually Le Roux that directs the attack.

    However should Pat be able to do that, I would prefer him in the position because I do think local players should get preference if all else equal.

  • Comment 64, posted at 21.11.13 08:18:34 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • With Ruan Pienaar’s quick ball from the base of the ruck and Morne Steyn’s excellent stats on tackling we will most likely be no. 2 in the world for a very long time. Bullsh!t!!! England will overtake us in the next year and we will most likely lose to the All Blacks again. How many tackles has Morne Steyn missed that lead to tries? The stats won’t show you this. You will only see this when you actually watch the game. I really hope Pat finds his kicking accuracy or Johan Goosen stops breaking so that we can get rid of MS and start working towards being no. 1 which I know we can. We also need a young scrumhalf like Reinach to keep on doing the good things that he has shown us he can do but cut out the stupid mistakes to take this team forward.

  • Comment 65, posted at 21.11.13 08:22:41 by Bite me Reply

    Bite meUnder 21 player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 57) : @VinChainSaw (Comment 58) :

    I have to ask you guys honestly.

    Do you really believe that Steyn’s tackling is no worse than any other international flyhalf, including Lambie?

    Do you really believe that if a flyhalfs tackling is ‘sub-standard’ that it would not matter and would not be a liability for a team at all?

    I don’t think it has that much effect when Steyn is defending in that first channel, because as you rightly pointed out, our loosies and most other loosies these days really, pride themselves in their tackling ability and mostly shift into that first channel to tighten up defenses, but when the defense is spread and Steyn is defending a little wider and do not have the backing of his loosies and has to be a defender on his own, I believe that is when we have seen him miss really important tackles – grasping at runners, instead of putting his shoulder down and putting the man to ground. You also find that when the flyhalf is forced to stay back and cover in the last channel of defense (when the fullback made a kick or is out of position for some reason or other), that Steyn has been found wanting, not only does he struggle to make the tackle, but often finds himself completely beaten by the player.

    Now I’m not saying this should be a reason not to start him for this specific game. I’m in agreement with you that he has had a great year and are playing the confident rugby that makes him a more than solid option in that Bok flyhalf channel.

    IMO Lambie is still finding his feet as a flyhalf at international level. His kicking game has improved immensely under HM (something others here feel aggrieved about, slating it as the reason why Lambie has become more one dimensional – if anything a better kicking game should make him a more rounded player, if he was a natural runner before, then he should still be able to do that, but now when he does decide to make a kick it should be more accurate). I’m happy with the growth I’ve seen in Lambie playing for HM.

    To me in the two games Lambie played this year and the three last year, he is still feeling out international opposition, there’s not nearly as much space to run into and not nearly as much time on the ball. Everyone is saying – Lambie should stand flatter, Lambie should stand flatter, but when the defense is already flat and shooting up on you, it is often a good idea just to take a step back and create some room between you and the opposition, create some time on the ball, mix things up. I feel like Lambie feels so much pressure to “play his game” (his game – as in stand flat, take on the opposition and maybe most of all – be more creative than Steyn, but kick just as well), that he is actually forgetting to just relax and play his natural game, which in my opinion, is not specifically playing flat or taking on the gainline more or less than Steyn or whoever or passing more or kicking less, it is his ability to read the game and make sound decisions – That’s one of the reasons why I am especially pleased that Lambie came back to the Sharks with a more rounded kicking game, because now he can play his own game, with an improved skill in one area of his game and what’s so bad about that.

    What I have been growling about concerning the Heyneke Meyer/ Lambie era is this:

    When Heyneke Meyer started out as coach Morne Steyn was not in good form. It was clear as day. No one can deny this fact. Well, you can, but even HM admitted that his flyhalf was out of form. So he backed him to get back into form. That’s great. I admire that in a coach. You don’t just throw your players out on the curb when they are having a dip in form. It happens to the best of them – I’m not implying that Morne is the best of them, but he has done great service for the Boks and HM believed in him and also believes that MS is his best option. As coach, you would expect that he has players that he prefers above others and you would also expect that every now and then those players would differ from the ones the man on the street prefers.

    Now we have Meyer in his first few games and naturally he is selecting the players he is familiar with, comfortable with and feels can do a job for him this early on, including Steyn, who he admitted was out of form. He plays him for 1 game, 2 games, 3, 4 games. Steyn’s form does not improve and with his general play, his kicking even goes out of the window. How many games do you give a clearly out of form player when you have 3 young flyhalfs that could use the international gametime – at this stage HM had Lambie, Goosen and Jantjies in is squad.

    Johan Goosen was used in the last two RC games last year, which I was not happy with, but again, I understand, the coach prefers the one player to the other – nothing we can do about that. Then thankfully HM again benches Steyn at the end of year tour and since Goosen is injured, Lambie gets a shot.

    Then this year – There were games against Italy, Scotland, Samoa and the first RC game against Argentina. Goosen is injured – we are now assuming that he is HM first choice after Steyn, again you can’t complain when a coach prefers one player to another (well you can, you can even argue that the one player is in fact better than the coaches option, but at the end of the day he was selected as the coach for a reason, right!?), but Goosen clearly has problems with injuries, so maybe getting a 3rd flyhalf ready wouldn’t be a bad idea. Now I don’t say start Lambie in all 4 these games, but surely there was 320min of rugby of which Lambie could have been given half or at least 80min or, something significant? Yet HM decided to bring him on only as a 15 and only for 5 minutes at the end of each game???

    If you had played him in these four games then you would have had a better idea of whether he would have been able to handle 20 min or so at flyhalf against the All Blacks and the Aussies. If the games were tight obviously you don’t need to replace you flyhalf, in fact, it’s better if you don’t, but the game against Australia, where we needed 4 tries, surely was another game where you could have brought Lambie on at 10 for about 30 minutes to see if he can ignite something – the game was already won, maybe if HM had played Lambie more in the 7 games leading up to that one, he would have known that Lambie is the perfect person to do exactly that – or not, for that matter, but either way he would have known.

    That brings us to present time – Lambie getting selected as a 15 against Wales??? Yes, I questioned it and was confused, because HM made a strong argument for not picking Lambie as 10 during 2012 and even said that Goosen got the go ahead, ahead of Lambie because he only played 10 for his union. Lambie didn’t play 15 this year, yet he chooses to pick him only at 15??? Like I said in previous blogs, maybe the message was secretively clearly given to Lambie, but it is confusing as hell to me.

    I’m happy to see that HM is still willing to back Lambie at 10 when he needs a 10 though and also happy that he always has good things to say about his young flyhalf.

    Maybe some here are getting a little one eyed about Lambie at times – or lets say all of us definitely are, but it is frustrating to believe in a player and see him going down the path of other potential great players, that never were to be.

    Maybe their coaches didn’t ruin them either, maybe they just never were as great as we believed, but still, you can’t help it when you see greatness in a player and coaches don’t treat that greatness the way you feel it should be treated. You shouldn’t be so hard on us. And for me personally I can honestly say it is not “just’ sharks bias, I have backed players from other unions in the same way before.

    I can’t think of anyone right now, but I’ll let you know!

  • Comment 66, posted at 21.11.13 08:30:06 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • @Bite me (Comment 65) :

    I like Lambie as much as the next sharksworld blogger, but I don’t think it is fair to say that switching Lambie with Morne Steyn will make is number 1. So Lambie is so good that he will be the diffirence between winning and losing against the All Blacks. That’s a bit of a slap in the face to the other 14 players that would be running out with him, don’t you think.

    My position is, Lambie is good and could even be better than MS, but I think he still needs time to grow at international level before we can say that he actually is better.

    He is a better defender, yes. His kicking game was on Par to Morne’s against Scotland, but his running and attacking play from that first channel (this the thing where we believe he should outshine Morne), still needs work or time at this level.

    I’d pick him above Morne any day. I don’t think it will hurt the team, as much as I don’t think it won’t suddenly make us world beaters, but the more time you give a young player with potential in his position, at the highest level, the better he will get. And this is way I will always start Lambie over Morne – not because he definitely is better now, but simply because I believe he will be better in 2 years if we play him consistently.

    Which in effect could be an influencing factor in being able to beat the All Balcks – so it would seem I actually agree with you. Sorry. :smile:

  • Comment 67, posted at 21.11.13 08:40:00 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • Ok Ive got it now…
    The All Blacks are so successful because they are playing Bulls patented rugby and Naas Botha was the blueprint for the ultimate flyhalf. :twisted:

  • Comment 68, posted at 21.11.13 08:44:35 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • It just boils down to the same thing over and over gain. When Lambie is playing without McLeod he doesn’t tend to feature much at all.
    I am not saying he had a terrible game against Scotland, but he has shown nothing compared to the CC final. At most he was pretty well solid, pretty much a MS game.

  • Comment 69, posted at 21.11.13 08:45:55 by Uli Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli BoelieSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 68) : I am sorry but that has allot of truth in it.

  • Comment 70, posted at 21.11.13 08:47:13 by Uli Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli BoelieSuper Rugby player
     
  • Missed tackle stats are irrelevant.

    The Kings had the best tackle stats in Super Rugby (88.7%) but let in 69 tries (15th)

    The Chiefs had the second best tackle stats (88.1%) but let in 38 tries (11th)

    The Stormers had the seventh best tackle stats (87.0%) but let in only 18 tries (1st)

    As to Morne vs Pat in SR:

    Pat:
    Total: 132
    Missed: 8 (6.06%)
    Ineffective: 11 (8.33%)
    Total: 17 (14.39%)

    Morne:
    Total: 168
    Missed: 20 (11.9%)
    Ineffective: 7 (4.17%)
    Total: 27 (16.7%)

    For perspective
    Lambie: 14.39%
    Steyn: 16.07%
    Jantjies: 22.5%
    Francis: 26.92%
    van Aswegen: 31.51%
    Catrakilis: 34.07%

  • Comment 71, posted at 21.11.13 08:57:08 by Baylion Reply

    BaylionCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 67) : Agree with you 100%. It will not happen in the first game we play but I am confident that it will happen if we continue with playing him in the flyhalf position. And not only Lambie. I have been very impressed with Goosen the couple of games he has played and I think he has a better boot on him than Lambie at this stage. He can also kick penalties from a longer range. The players chosen around the flyhalf will also have to learn how he plays as Morne Steyn plays from pretty deep and Lambie likes to take a flat ball. I am still not happy with scrumhalf and outside centre as well. Jacque Fourie is definately good enough but needs to play Super rugby and forget the huge paycheck he gets in Japan because MOST of the players that has gone to Japan has not come back in the same shape they left. Thinking Kanko with this statement and George Smith being the exception. Once we sort this out, we can beat the All Blacks.

  • Comment 72, posted at 21.11.13 09:01:20 by Bite me Reply

    Bite meUnder 21 player
     
  • Right now MS is our best flyhalf!!! The game against france is a must win…..can’t take any chances with a new 10. I would love for us to have a more all round 10, but to change ur flyhalf with less then 20 games before the next worldcup IS stupid!! Even if we do, skapie is not the guy. No one cares how many tackles MS miss, aslong as he win us games! MS tactical kicking is the best in the world, even better than carter’s and that’s what u need in a worldcup with goalkicking! Too think u gonna outrun the AB…..haha, think again. U beat the AB by kicking and smothering them, ask pdivvy he done it three games in a row. At ellis park we tried it and it looked pretty, but we got our asses handed to us!

  • Comment 73, posted at 21.11.13 09:28:38 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • “but to change ur flyhalf with less then 20 games before the next worldcup IS stupid!” :shock:

  • Comment 74, posted at 21.11.13 09:30:34 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • Why do we want to play exactly like the All Blacks? Seriously! Yes they are the best in the world and good at what they do but too many teams try match them like for like but just dont have the players capable of doing it. And im afraid the SA players also cannot match the All Blacks playing the same game plan. The Boks have been successful against the All Blacks when we play to our strengths which are in the forwards and the backs shutting down space quickly and taking opportunistic tries. Thats the Bok way of playing. Dont try copy other teams but focus on your own strengths- coaching 101

  • Comment 75, posted at 21.11.13 09:34:31 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKSuper Rugby player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 73) : Ja nee #$k, if that Lambie had a brain he wouldnt bother with tackling and would instead spend his efforts perfecting his kicking game.

  • Comment 76, posted at 21.11.13 09:35:54 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 75) : I dont recall anyone saying we should be copying the AB’s. Morne said the AB’s are copying the Bulls and I thought the Boks are playing Bulls rugby so therefore the AB’s are copying us and we are actually playing the same rugby, only the AB’s do it better and more attractively.

  • Comment 77, posted at 21.11.13 09:41:52 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 66) :

    Steyn is no Honiball, but I believe the perceptions around his defence borders on the lunacy I have seen the public display around Kirchner who has had a very good season this year (probably his best in a 15 jersey) but is still labelled as useless.

    The opinion of one player being ‘greater’ than the other will always be met with some form of bias from supporters. My opinion, sometimes ‘great’ players are just unlucky enough to play at the same time there is another great player in the same position. Players like Danie Rossouw comes to mind, hell even Bismarck having to be content with playing second fiddle to John for the best part of 6 years.

    When it comes to Lambie, he has the potential to be great, but he is not great currently. If the argument is to allow him to become great, at the expense of another player who is ‘great’ then that argument doesn’t fly I am sorry.

    Morne Steyn have broken just about every record in Bok rugby a flyhalf can. That is not a sign of an average player. Of course he has off-games, or periods where he struggles as any player does, but any coach will back his great players during those periods because he knows their value. The result of Meyer backing Morne in 2012 has paid huge dividends in 2013 where Morne probably had his best season in a Bok jersey since 2009 – hell even the Aussies rated him as the best 10 of 2013.

    Morne is gone after 2015, Lambie won’t be. My advice to him would be to look to one of his senior team mates and how he had to bite the bullet until his time to shine arrived (Bismarck).

  • Comment 78, posted at 21.11.13 09:56:54 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 77) : Oh please man, everyone always says we need a 10 like the ABs, a 15 like the ABs etc. The Boks arent copying the Bulls or anyone. The Boks are playing to the strengths of Bok rugby. Does Lambie suit Bok rugby playing at 10…well at the moment-No. But he will learn and evolve. Everyone so so concerned about how we need players like this or that team and we copying this or that style. Instead focus on how we can better use the players that are there and are tried and tested as the best we have. And we Number 2 in the world FFS! If we were 9th or 10th then we have room to moan.

  • Comment 79, posted at 21.11.13 09:58:57 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKSuper Rugby player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 79) : that’s true!!

  • Comment 80, posted at 21.11.13 10:13:25 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 79) : Dont shoot the messenger, Im just repeating what has been said, mostly in jest. I think what many here are saying is that we need an evolving plan if we want to beat the AB’s while others are saying that we are beating all comers (except the AB’s) and that HM’s win stats look good so all is well and that we have only lost 4 on the trot to the AB;s due to bad luck / karma.

  • Comment 81, posted at 21.11.13 10:18:07 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • When skapie came on the scene I liked the guy…..after last years EOYT I didn’t mind him being MS’s backup, even though goosen looked like a really excited option…..now I’m starting to hate the guy!!

  • Comment 82, posted at 21.11.13 10:19:05 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 79) : “Instead focus on how we can better use the players that are there and are tried and tested” yes, I think that is what most are calling for.. evolving.

  • Comment 83, posted at 21.11.13 10:21:56 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 82) : You are obviously a special specimen – if you can evoke such strong emotions regarding an individual, because of what his supporters feel and have absolutely f-all to do with the individual himself.

  • Comment 84, posted at 21.11.13 10:26:23 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • When mallet was coach people moaned, white….people moaned, pdivvy…..people moaned, HM…..people are moaning, when allister coetzee is our next coach we’ll also be moaning. There will always be a small minority group that will badmouth the springbok team because one or two of their favorite players wasn’t picked!! U can support the team or u can break them down…up to u

  • Comment 85, posted at 21.11.13 10:33:26 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 83) : Sorry not shooting anyone, just get irritated when people say we need a player like that team or must play like that team etc. We have very good players in this country. We have big strong forwards and hard running backs. We dont have incredibly skillful forwards that make 20m passes and out the back of the hand offloads. We dont have quick stepping backs. Whether we like it or not Bok rugby is successful when we are physical and in the face of the opposition, smashing them in rucks,mauls and tackles and allowing our backs to capitalise on turnover ball. Thats Bok rugby. Yes its not always pretty- if people want pretty go watch those fairies play soccer. Bok rugby is ugly, its brutal. Dont try make us something we are not, rather use those skills in different ways. For example run our forwards off 10. Yes a guy like Nonu may look imposing as a backline player but I can bet you he takes a step backwards if he has Alberts or Etzabeth running at him!

  • Comment 86, posted at 21.11.13 10:37:00 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 84) : 0k now I feel bad, hate is abit harsh. Like I said I used to like the guy, its just getting harder and harder to like him because of his fans…. [PS. How did u know I'm a special specimen. Lol]

  • Comment 87, posted at 21.11.13 10:54:06 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 87) : You would have to be to hate someone for no valid reason.

  • Comment 88, posted at 21.11.13 10:58:41 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 82) : It’s only ever safe to judge a person based on their fans if that person happens to be Justin Bieber.

  • Comment 89, posted at 21.11.13 11:59:26 by vanmartin Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter Author
    vanmartinTeam captain
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 89) : Hmmm, wonder if Pat is a Biebs fan – he looks as if he could be young enough. :twisted:

  • Comment 90, posted at 21.11.13 12:04:45 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 89) : Or the Bulls. It is now 18 years since I left Pretoria (although I am close again), and the mental scars inflicted by the Bulls fans still linger…

  • Comment 91, posted at 21.11.13 12:18:11 by Culling Song Reply
    Author
    Culling SongSuper Rugby player
     
  • @ Letgo article 66. I really enjoyed your article. Also glad to see you back Lambie at flyhalf. I think he’s definitely the No 10 of the not too distant one future. :cool:

  • Comment 92, posted at 21.11.13 12:19:16 by denese.newby@gmail.com Reply

    denese.newby@gmail.comCurrie Cup player
     
  • my personal opinion is the 9 10 combo. the balance is what we get wrong. fourie at 9 with MS at 10 works great, their weak and strong points compliment each other. Lambi at 10 needs a different kind of 9. that is what the problem is at the boks, the 9 combo with Lambi is not the perfect one, yet Lambi still performs well, but not his best. currently we do not have a 9 that is at international level that would compliment Lambi at 10. the importance of complimenting styles is something I feel we neglect a lot.

  • Comment 93, posted at 21.11.13 12:36:14 by CrazySharkFan Reply

    CrazySharkFanVodacom Cup player
     
  • @CrazySharkFan (Comment 93) : agree with that!

  • Comment 94, posted at 21.11.13 12:58:33 by Talent Reply
    Author
    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 86) : But no one is saying that. We are pointing out potential problems with our own game, and how to remedy them, to nullify the All Blacks.

    I have been rather scathing about Meyer, but I do think the Springboks are improving. Their technique is obviously something they have worked on; the last passage of play in the Scottish game showed some text book execution when carrying the ball into contact, something we desperately needed to get right.

    I can see us becoming a super potent side if we up our level of defense to the standard the Stormers hold and begin to marry the traditional Blue Bulls game plan with a Cheetahs/Sharks game plan.

    We won’t get to #1 playing how we are, it’s just to predictable and easy to defend. We need to see our back 3 involved more often with our centers, not just off 9.

  • Comment 95, posted at 21.11.13 13:08:58 by Talent Reply
    Author
    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • I would also like to see us use press defense instead of generic drift defense, I feel teams that use that produce the best defensive results. The problem is this requires strict tackle proficiency, cant rely on another person to assist you; man for man tackling.

  • Comment 96, posted at 21.11.13 13:13:42 by Talent Reply
    Author
    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • Sry to disappoint…..lambie is nr2 at the moment, by the end of 2014 he might be 4th

  • Comment 97, posted at 21.11.13 13:30:03 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • Don’t think we need to change anything……we just need to buy Kieran Reid!!

  • Comment 98, posted at 21.11.13 13:38:12 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 98) : and pay him to run at brick walls. :lol: !!! !! !

  • Comment 99, posted at 21.11.13 13:48:39 by Talent Reply
    Author
    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 97) : behind Goosen and Pollard ,go sit on a pineapple :lol:

  • Comment 100, posted at 21.11.13 13:49:36 by Talent Reply
    Author
    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • @CrazySharkFan (Comment 93) : @Talent (Comment 94) :

    Ah right – so now its Fourie’s fault.

    So no longer Plumtree’s fault, or Heneiken’s, or not giving him time to “settle” into a position.
    Now its because he has the wrong type of scrumhalf.

    You guys are a joke.

  • Comment 101, posted at 21.11.13 13:55:48 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 97) :

    If HM stays on after the WC, and Goosen doesnt manage to keep himself fit, it’ll be Catrikalis in pole position. Plays the same sort of game as Steyn.

  • Comment 102, posted at 21.11.13 13:57:30 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • Was thinking goosen and demitri…..lol

  • Comment 103, posted at 21.11.13 13:58:16 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 101) :

    What happened to the mostly rational general Sharks supporter? You give them one cup and they turn into the Bulls. :)

  • Comment 104, posted at 21.11.13 14:04:37 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 103) :

    Hehe.

    And I think the Cat will be a firm favourite across the country, given that his fans dont have the Entitlement Complex than Lambie’s seem to have.

  • Comment 105, posted at 21.11.13 14:05:28 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 104) :

    I know – its incredible!

    It makes for fascinating watching actually. Could it be that WP fans are the only classy winners out there?

  • Comment 106, posted at 21.11.13 14:07:03 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 104) :

    Maybe its just because they’re a johnny-come-lately union, who never quite learnt how to carry the weight that being a pedigreed winner gives you?

  • Comment 107, posted at 21.11.13 14:09:06 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 89) :

    Or the Kardashians!! ;-) :mrgreen: :twisted:

  • Comment 108, posted at 21.11.13 14:11:01 by wpw Reply
    Administrator
    wpwAssistant coach
     
  • Its called “New Money”!!

  • Comment 109, posted at 21.11.13 14:15:38 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @wpw (Comment 108) : Same people.

  • Comment 110, posted at 21.11.13 14:20:50 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 109) :

    Lol, touche!

  • Comment 111, posted at 21.11.13 14:21:07 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • To conclude the flyhalf issue: firstly…..if MS played for the sharks, the sharks would have had a superrugby trophy by now. Secondly…..with demitri[maybe a better version of steyn] at the strms they could win a superrugby trophy before the sharks….[Heaven forbid...save us from that day!!!]

  • Comment 112, posted at 21.11.13 14:56:02 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • blows raspberry

  • Comment 113, posted at 21.11.13 15:06:26 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 112) : @VinChainSaw (Comment 111) :

    Can someone remind me how boring the Bulls were in 2007, when HM won the S12??

    Didn’t they klap the Reds by 90 points or something??

    In 2009 and 2010 they won the title with the self same boring game plan and with most of Heyneke’s players but with Ludeke at the helm.

    On to Lambie, what has he achieved since 2010?? Has the Sharks done as well with him at 10 as when Morne played for the Bulls??

    Has the Sharks ever put 50 past a decent SR team with Lambie at 10?

    Lastly, what was so good about the Sharks this year, with their hero Lambie running the show?? 2 good performances in a watered down Currie Cup?? :roll:

  • Comment 114, posted at 21.11.13 15:12:42 by wpw Reply
    Administrator
    wpwAssistant coach
     
  • I’m disappointed, Lambie is not starting at 15. He was seriously impressive there in the 17 minutes against Wales.

    Morne is correct. He will be a great full-back.
    High percentage tackling, unflappable under high balls, good positional anticipation, running space.

    What you blokes going to say if Jake White shift him there next year?

  • Comment 115, posted at 21.11.13 15:14:01 by fyndraai Reply

    fyndraaiCurrie Cup player
     
  • @fyndraai (Comment 116) : Jake will have leeway in his first season, but God help him if he doesn’t win us that trophy :)

    #NoPressure

  • Comment 116, posted at 21.11.13 15:19:13 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @fyndraai (Comment 115) :

    Of course I am right :twisted:

    I will maintain this line till the cows come home. Lambie can be a very good flyhalf, but he will be an exceptional fullback.

  • Comment 117, posted at 21.11.13 15:28:35 by Morné Reply
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  • And I will say this also and most folks will say I am daft.

    I am not convinced on Willie le Roux just yet.

    This guy is exceptional in one part of his game, ball in hand, but he is far from a rounded player. At this level, opposition work you out quickly. They will deny him the option to exercise what he is really good at, and expose his weaknesses which is his positional play, work rate off the ball, and defence.

  • Comment 118, posted at 21.11.13 15:32:33 by Morné Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 114) : I agree, when u have a good team u have to make it count…..the bulls under HM build up a dynasty and got 3 superrugby trophies to show for it….no one can take that away from them. The sharks have a good team,but if they don’t cash in on it,its gonna slip away from them. Players like bissie,beast,jannie,alberts, steyn, deysel,jpp and one or two others might only be here for another two years and then its rebuilding time…..

  • Comment 119, posted at 21.11.13 15:34:23 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @wpw (Comment 114) : Well if we are talking boring – that is really the domain of the Stormers / WP.

  • Comment 120, posted at 21.11.13 15:40:13 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 118) : Not daft at all – I fully agree.

  • Comment 121, posted at 21.11.13 15:41:54 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 78) :
    Ok my turn.

    You bringing up the Bismarck vs John Smit issue is exactly the reason we want a Lambie/Goosen flyhalf ahead of Morne. Bismarck was the best hooker in SA (if not the world) since 2008/2009 and PDiv lingered with Smitty. it was a strong contributor to our failed 2011 world cup campaign. Too say he was behind Smitty is plaim stupidity…
    He should have been given game time to develop and improve at test level and influence results.

    The same applies to Morne vs Lambie. Give him time NOW to develop and we will maximise our potential by the next world cup.

    also comparing our kicking game vs NZ is foolish. they kick with their heads, not because they have too!!!!

  • Comment 122, posted at 21.11.13 15:53:33 by pienaar111 Reply

    pienaar111Currie Cup player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 118) : also. Morne’s best has been innefective against the worlds best. so why continue with it???

    The mark of an idiot is to repeat the same thing and expect a different result

  • Comment 123, posted at 21.11.13 16:02:47 by pienaar111 Reply

    pienaar111Currie Cup player
     
  • Pedigreed…huh, the WP boss and his family dont even support the their team, oh well at least they sup royally on the backs of the loyal fans on match days.

  • Comment 124, posted at 21.11.13 16:02:58 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • Yes willie have some things to work out, hopefully he will play more at 15 during the s15, but if u wonna play it safe u might aswell fall back on zane. In the NH lambie’s kicking game can be very helpful though, but if willie and taute show good signs its gonna be difficult to lift them from the nr10 jersey. Jake got two years to win the s15, he’s not gonna move lambie to 15 and start with a green 10…..never!!

  • Comment 125, posted at 21.11.13 16:09:55 by KingsArmy Reply

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  • @pienaar111 (Comment 122) : we lost one game in the last worldcup and its got nothing to do with the fact that bissie was better smit……and everything to do with a fkt-up ref. Also to win the next worldcup steyn has to stay at 10!!!

  • Comment 126, posted at 21.11.13 16:17:12 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @pienaar111 (Comment 122) : The bokke’s kicking game is the best in the world. U listen to any commentating team around the world and u will hear them say “u don’t wonna get into a kicking contest with the south africans” . When carter is fit he is the best flyhalf, but steyn’s tactical kicking is superior and probably his goalkicking also!!

  • Comment 127, posted at 21.11.13 16:29:29 by KingsArmy Reply

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  • Ja well maybe the Sharks is a jonny-come-lately union but that is way better than being a jonny-come-tosoon.

  • Comment 128, posted at 21.11.13 16:52:54 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 128) : It must be frustrating to have this incredible history of rugby, all those cc titles (even if most of them came before finals were played) a pretty mountain, the most fans, really good age group players, arguably of the best school boy players etc etc and yet no silver ware. Even more galling and frustrating will be when a bunch of upstarts with a really small fan and player base (in comparison) arrive on the scene and better them year in and year out.

  • Comment 129, posted at 21.11.13 17:02:47 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @pienaar111 (Comment 123) :

    Ah you mean he’s been ineffective against New Zealand?

    That being the case, why continue with any of the players that played them this season?

    Your bias is staggering.

  • Comment 130, posted at 21.11.13 17:03:00 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 129) :

    Year in, year out you say?

    What happened last year then?

  • Comment 131, posted at 21.11.13 17:03:41 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 127) : No comparison between Carter and Steyn. You are bloody dreaming…

    Pretoria also apparently has the best beach in the world, so I’ve heard from the locals? :lol:

  • Comment 132, posted at 21.11.13 17:04:05 by Talent Reply
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    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 131) : clearly you forget what happened after you topped the Super Rugby log :)

  • Comment 133, posted at 21.11.13 17:07:42 by robdylan Reply
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  • Anyone see the SA Rugby crew are punting Spies again? What do you fellas have to say about that? Wait I know what KingsArmy will say ;he is good in the line-outs and…and…must be a Springbok :lol: :lol:

  • Comment 134, posted at 21.11.13 17:10:37 by Talent Reply
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  • @pienaar111 (Comment 122) :

    Wait so we lost the World Cup in 2011 because of Smit and we fail to beat the All Blacks because of Morne Steyn?

    There has been some absurd assumption on this thread but this rates in the top 3.

  • Comment 135, posted at 21.11.13 17:56:24 by Morné Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 134) :

    Cant stand the man. Personally I think he looks the part, but sadly doesnt have the grunt or skills to deliver.

  • Comment 136, posted at 21.11.13 18:55:11 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 135) :

    Lol. Nothing quite like arrogance and ignorance working together.

  • Comment 137, posted at 21.11.13 18:55:56 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 133) :

    Yeah, yeah.
    Just because you lot won one game against us this year, doesnt mean you win year in, year out.

    Admittedly it was a big game and we choked worse than the Proteas.

  • Comment 138, posted at 21.11.13 18:57:06 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 137) : hmmm, there’s a song in there somewhere….

  • Comment 139, posted at 21.11.13 19:12:36 by robdylan Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 138) : I got you to use the word “admittedly”… feel like I just won the lotto :)

  • Comment 140, posted at 21.11.13 19:16:43 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 116) :

    I predict.
    Jake White + the players + good luck will make the Sharks SR champions 2014.

    They already had their share of terrible luck last time around.

  • Comment 141, posted at 21.11.13 19:18:16 by fyndraai Reply

    fyndraaiCurrie Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 140) :

    Indeed!

  • Comment 142, posted at 21.11.13 19:24:49 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 101) : the rubbish excuses know no end on this site and the poster boy hero worhip/adulation/obssesion also has no boundry, I’m certain the likes of Talent have a poster of him om their bedroom walls. Fact is Bambie can tackle yes,at best he can shuffle the ball on ,he cannot put his backline on the front foot and cannot pass a flat hard ball along the gain line and he cannot kick under pressure. Eish but the bleating of a netball playing mountain goat supporty is rubbish as well.

  • Comment 143, posted at 21.11.13 19:27:31 by benji Reply

    Currie Cup player
     
  • @fyndraai (Comment 141) : thanks mate… I hope you’re right.

    I mean, we really do have a very credible squad – one that I feel deserves better than the performances over the last 5 years. Luck plays a role (I mean, 2007 was cruel) but coaching and attitude also does.

  • Comment 144, posted at 21.11.13 19:27:57 by robdylan Reply
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  • Last descent game Bambie had at 10 was CC final 2010 period

  • Comment 145, posted at 21.11.13 19:29:16 by benji Reply

    Currie Cup player
     
  • @benji (Comment 143) :

    From your lips to God’s ears my friend.

    I just find it hilarious how these groupies move from one irrelevant point to another!

    As soon as an excuse for his non-performance is debunked, another one arises.

    As for flyhalf talents, tackling is so low down the list its not even funny. Its not like he’s playing flanker, he’s a flyhalf FFS.

  • Comment 146, posted at 21.11.13 19:30:10 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @benji (Comment 145) : nah, not true.

    Look, I get that we need to swing the pendulum the other way a bit here, since some of the comments are bordering on Saron van Wyk-style mania, but let’s keep it fair.

    Pat had an above decent game in this year’s Currie Cup final, for one thing. And again was more than decent against Scotland.

  • Comment 147, posted at 21.11.13 19:34:22 by robdylan Reply
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  • the last flyhalf we picked on defensive ability alone was Braam van Straaten :)

  • Comment 148, posted at 21.11.13 19:39:55 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 147) :

    Yuo cant count Scotland mate – what are you measuring a flyhalf against when you are that dominant in the forwards?
    I wouldve looked more than decent with that much possession.

  • Comment 149, posted at 21.11.13 19:40:06 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 148) :

    Yeah, and look how that worked out!

  • Comment 150, posted at 21.11.13 19:40:25 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 147) : @VinChainSaw (Comment 146) : yes but the entire team in each case was on fire. Let’s go back to SR 2012 , Bambie was 10 for half the season and the Sharks battled, Fred M took over and we reached the final ,how many games were Sharks on backfoot but Fred being pure class 10 sorted those games,Sharks and SA to be top dog need/lack a pure class 10 at the moment

  • Comment 151, posted at 21.11.13 19:42:00 by benji Reply

    Currie Cup player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 149) :

    And even in the Scotland game – Lambie didnt control the game.

    Until he starts exerting control on the game at international level, these doubts will persist.

  • Comment 152, posted at 21.11.13 19:42:16 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 150) : I’m actually trying to be on your side for once, if you’ll just let me :)

    @VinChainSaw (Comment 149) : I didn’t say he was great, just that he was more than decent.

    Maybe I have lower expectations of flyhalves in those kinds of conditions.

  • Comment 153, posted at 21.11.13 19:43:17 by robdylan Reply
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  • @benji (Comment 151) : I dunno hey…. I recall Fred playing some real dogshit games too. I’ve yet to see the flyhalf that can single-handedly win a game in which his pack is getting killed.

  • Comment 154, posted at 21.11.13 19:44:13 by robdylan Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 152) : I’d like you to be a bit more explicit about what that means. What does he need to do to “control the game” that he’s not already doing?

    My very strong assertion is that Meyer’s scrumhalf is responsible for “controlling the game”… not his flyhalf.

  • Comment 155, posted at 21.11.13 19:45:30 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 153) :

    Yeah look – I do agree. Its tough to use the same ruler when its wet and cold.

    But he was just average; okay, above average. He did everything he needed to, without really sticking his hand up.

    I dont expect him to single-handedly win the game, but I do expect him to control the tempo and thereby control the game.

  • Comment 156, posted at 21.11.13 19:47:12 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 154) : true but likes of Dan.Quade ,Fred have rugby kop as did Butchie ,to pull rabbit out hat with some pure class move or play

  • Comment 157, posted at 21.11.13 19:47:50 by benji Reply

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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 156) : controle the game is what these top 10 ‘s do

  • Comment 158, posted at 21.11.13 19:49:22 by benji Reply

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  • @benji (Comment 158) : it just strikes me as one of those empty “round the braai” phrases that doesn’t really mean all that much.

  • Comment 159, posted at 21.11.13 19:51:23 by robdylan Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 156) : explain “control the tempo”…. what does it mean? What are the things he needs to do to “control the tempo”? Kick faster? Run slower?

  • Comment 160, posted at 21.11.13 19:54:23 by robdylan Reply
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  • some of the statements that are being made by the anti-Lambie camp don’t really stand up to scrutiny any better than those coming from the pro-Lambie camp #JustSayin

  • Comment 161, posted at 21.11.13 19:55:59 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 155) :

    That is a very valid point.

    Let me start by saying I dont believe Pienaar to be a scrumhalf’s *ss.
    I just dont think he gives crisp enough service. It works in Ireland where they play a different game. But the Boks, they depend heavily on the kicking game and service needs to be crisp. Pienaar’s isnt.

    As for good flyhalves – they tend to turn up on the day.
    Even Steyn – he uses the long boot to continually keep his forwards heading towards the opposition tryline.
    Thereby he controls where the game is played.

    Dan Carter – he does the same thing – and more. He can also break the line and put his centres in space.

    My point about Lambie is that he takes the ball flat, doesn’t seem to have the same impact on the gainline (understandable for a little guy playing international rugby), but cruticially, also doesn’t have the big boot that is so necessary in Springbok Rugby.

    Like it nor not – that is the way the Boks play. Ive heard every guy and his dog talking for 20 years about how the Boks are working towards playing a more expansive game. Yet we’ve only reverted even further towards playing Naas Botha rugby.

    Lambie doesn’t fit that mould of play – I fear he never will. He doesn’t have the likes of Conrad Smith, Sonny bill Williams, Ma’a Nonu inside of him – he had Crashball de Villiers.
    He also hasn’t managed to change the way he plays to fit into the gameplan expected from him.

    The end result is he doesn’t look comfortable or confident and isn’t able to keep the forwards headed in the right direction to the extent that Steyn can.

    Like it or not, the Bok gameplan is very simple. The forwards exert pressure, then exert more pressure – until the opposition cracks and we pounce.
    To do that you need a flyhalf who has a long boot and the timing and execution to pull it off.

    Standing flat and being a “running flyhalf” is all good and well – in Australia or New Zealand.
    Simply put – the Boks dont roll that way. They never have, and I humbly submit, never will.

  • Comment 162, posted at 21.11.13 19:56:54 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 138) : Admittedly it isnt really year in and year out – it just feels that way.

  • Comment 163, posted at 21.11.13 19:57:06 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @benji (Comment 157) : you mean that they leveraged the synergies within the team at grassroots level? We need a flyhalf like that going forward – a real game changer. The playing fields are just too level at the moment.

  • Comment 164, posted at 21.11.13 19:57:30 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 160) :

    Stand deeper – clear further.

    Steyn looks to have much more time on the ball than Lambie.

    You control the game by deciding where on the field you play it.

    I had a coach once who used to berate us for “shovelling shit”.
    I feel that is what Lambie does from time to time. He just shovels shit down the backline – and he shovels it to players that have no clue what to do with it.

  • Comment 165, posted at 21.11.13 19:59:02 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 162) : so it’s that his kicks aren’t log enough? That’s fine, let’s just say that. I would agree with that assessment.

    Pat doesn’t gain as much ground from kicks as Morne does.

  • Comment 166, posted at 21.11.13 19:59:27 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 163) :

    Because of one weekend – are you suffering from early onset alzheimers?

  • Comment 167, posted at 21.11.13 19:59:36 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 166) :

    Dude – im not saying Steyn is necessarily the better player.

    What I am saying is that Steyn is the better player for the Boks.
    And I’m also saying Pat hasnt exactly laid down any marker at international level or justified his continued selection – not above Steyn anyway.
    Steyn has the pedigree…

  • Comment 168, posted at 21.11.13 20:01:39 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 166) :

    Yeah its that to a large extent.

    The problem I ahve is that he’s not (currently) offering anything to mitigate this.

    And to be honest with you – Im just fecking gatvol of everybody wailing on and on with some silly excuse for why that is.

  • Comment 169, posted at 21.11.13 20:03:20 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 165) : I hear what you say and I will definitely agree that the other guys in the team often appear to be completely clueless when it comes to what Pat is going to do.

    I just get this “square peg/round hole” feeling every time I see him playing in that team. I must emphasise that I don’t consider that his fault….

  • Comment 170, posted at 21.11.13 20:04:50 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 170) :

    I know exactly that feeling and agree whole-heartedly.

    But equally – if he wants to cement his place in that team, its him that needs to change… the Boks havent changed in 100 years – they’re not about to start now.

  • Comment 171, posted at 21.11.13 20:06:46 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • BTW Rob – that photo that you have as a profile pic really annoys me.
    You’re gonna keep it for a while, arent ya?

  • Comment 172, posted at 21.11.13 20:12:14 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 168) : you and I are on the same page.

    And I appreciate the need to play the antagonist here because as I said before, far too many have swung the pendulum too far the other way.

    I guess I did start it with my headline :)

  • Comment 173, posted at 21.11.13 20:12:50 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 173) :

    Lol. You know me bud – I’ll take the other side of almost any debate… ;-)

  • Comment 174, posted at 21.11.13 20:18:53 by VinChainSaw Reply
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    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 164) : hahaha very clever,lost me in translation

  • Comment 175, posted at 21.11.13 20:30:56 by benji Reply

    Currie Cup player
     
  • Pat on the bench is the right call.

    Firstly, we play a 6-2 split, so his versatility will be very welcome. He can play 10, 12 and 15. If a wing goes down, Willie can shift over with Pat at the back. If a 13 goes down, JdV can shift with Pat at 12. Janno covers only 9 but can do 11 or 14 in a pinch.

    Secondly, Morne was the form flyhalf this year. Pat is my favourite but Morne deserves his spot. 2012 was a bad year for him but when you consider all the personal circumstances, you can forgive him for not being quite up to standard. And kudos for working hard and regaining form in 2013.

    Thirdly, Pat is still young and has a long career ahead of him. He is being treated fairly and with honesty from the coach, so there is no reason for him (or us) to feel aggrieved.

  • Comment 176, posted at 21.11.13 20:33:34 by King Shark Reply
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    King SharkVodacom Cup player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 126) : @Morné (Comment 135) : stop blaming the ref,the main reason Boks lost was JS ego,arrogance and PDV weakness,if JS was such a good leader and he saw the breakdown so losely reffed he should have taken himself off earlier and allowed the worlds best exponent at breakdown to do what he does best,Pockok would have been hammered And game won

  • Comment 177, posted at 21.11.13 20:51:51 by benji Reply

    Currie Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 147) : against two less than average teams though

  • Comment 178, posted at 21.11.13 20:55:44 by benji Reply

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  • @benji (Comment 178) : I suspect you and Vinny are going to part ways soon…

  • Comment 179, posted at 21.11.13 21:25:33 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 179) : eish yup and especially now with the Great White era most other teams are going to seem less than average

  • Comment 180, posted at 21.11.13 21:37:47 by benji Reply

    Currie Cup player
     
  • @benji (Comment 177) :

    Stop blaming Smit (see I can do it too). John was not at fault or had a shit game – the ref on the other hand did (and even admitted it and never reffed an international again).

    I wish people will get over this thing of ‘not blaming the ref’ – if he was shit, say it – simple.

  • Comment 181, posted at 21.11.13 21:41:53 by Morné Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 172) : oh hell yes. Forever, I think.

  • Comment 182, posted at 21.11.13 21:48:31 by robdylan Reply
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  • @King Shark (Comment 176) : “honesty from the coach”?

    No, I’m not so sure about that.

    I wish Meyer would be really honest with Pat about how highly he rates him…. because that would at least settle the matter.

  • Comment 183, posted at 21.11.13 21:49:32 by robdylan Reply
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  • People keep saying that Pat hasn’t done enough at 10 for the Boks, but how much game time has he had there? NZ played Tom Taylor in a match in the RC. Was he good? Yes. Was he world class? Hell no! Will we see him given a significant chance to grow? Of course. Lambie has started a grand total of 5 matches for the Boks in the 10 and a grand total of 3 of those were actually consecutive. When was he supposed to get used to test rugby? Steyn is not a bad player by any means. He keeps the game going but doesn’t inspire his backline like Lambie has done (although not yet at test level), and like Carter, Cruden, or Barrett do consistently.

    About the Sharks 2012 SR campaign:
    Our first match against the Bulls I barely remember, but both 10s missed kicks.

    Against the Stormers Lambie was solid.

    Lambie had a strong game against the Lions.

    He was solid against the Reds.

    He was actually quite good against the Waratahs, maybe fading towards the end.

    Against the Brumbies we somehow got 4 tries against the Brumbies even though Michalak played like kak.

    Against the Hurricanes I think we can all agree that Lambie’s control was missed.

    The Blues match saw Lambie’s running ability at it’s near best and some control return to the Sharks’ play.

    Lambie was one of the few that stood out against the Chiefs.

    He was then outstanding against a then decent Highlanders team, scoring 28 points, including a try (although opportunistic, it still says something about his presence).

    He was very good in the first half against the Force, directly creating one of the tries (unfortunately getting injured). In the second half, Michalak was alright but thankfully Daniel and McLeod exploded together.

    Michalak, being Michalak, randomly hit form against the Cheetahs while Lambie was out.

    The Stormers came to town and there was no dropping Michalak with the game he had. Lambie’s goal kicking remained solid.

    Let’s not talk about the Lions match, everybody was pathetic.

    Against the Bulls Lambie didn’t play.

    He was poor against the Cheetahs but he was struggling with an injury the whole first half.

    He then returned against the Chiefs and let’s face it, he was not up for finals rugby after having played so little in the weeks prior.

    When he was consistently selected and didn’t get injured, Lambie was great during SR 2012. He would be so much better than Steyn if he had been given the benefit of the doubt early. Steyn is solid and reliable but is also predictable, weak on defense, and not inspiring. Lambie is quite capable of doing everything plus more. While I admit that I am quite the Lambie fan, I know I am not being too biased here, I remember thinking the same thing back when Steyn first started in Bok colours (not compared to Lambie back then, but same principle).

    @VinChainSaw (Comment 146) : No player should be in an international squad with the defensive abilities of Morné Steyn. That’s hands down really. Any argument against that is just pathetic. This is rugby, no matter your position.

  • Comment 184, posted at 21.11.13 22:20:17 by David12246 Reply

    David12246Vodacom Cup player
     
  • Another big point is the location of some of these players. I am a strong believer that we should at least limit the number of overseas players. 3 would be a good amount, and to be honest, not many will deny that Steyn is more expendable than Habana, Louw, and du Preez, at least, and in my opinion that’s if we count JP as a local player.

  • Comment 185, posted at 21.11.13 22:27:15 by David12246 Reply

    David12246Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @benji (Comment 177) : pls bosvark would just have given away another yellowcard……with that ref it was never game on no matter who played!!

  • Comment 186, posted at 21.11.13 22:49:48 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 183) : think HM has been pretty honest with skapie…..the fact that he doesn’t pick him more and on many occasion said he really rate goosen….how much more clear does he have to be

  • Comment 187, posted at 21.11.13 22:57:39 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Talent (Comment 134) : sry mate, I think A Botha is gonna pass him. A Botha is just the guy to cover both 7/8 for the worldcup!

  • Comment 188, posted at 21.11.13 23:09:45 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @David12246 (Comment 185) : Don’t waste you breath. We are apparently being biased for standing up for something we believe in, despite backing many other players. Anyway, good rebuttal, by it will fall on def ears. We are flogging a dead horse here.

    One thing to consider is us younger guys are perhaps more in touch with our Rugby, having played it recently :smile:

    This lot have just got gatvol of hearing about Lambie being better than Steyn and have become belligerent.

    It’s simply a knee jerk reaction.

    @KingsArmy (Comment 188) : Not Kolisi or Coetzee? I like Botha but I want to see more from him and I am sure Meyer would not pick him ahead of Spies.

  • Comment 189, posted at 22.11.13 01:52:38 by Talent Reply
    Author
    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • We want total Rugby, Steyn can’t offer that.

    Play Goosen, lets see how well he defends against Nonu, Read and the boys and I wonder how long it will take for him to break.

  • Comment 190, posted at 22.11.13 01:57:15 by Talent Reply
    Author
    TalentCurrie Cup player
     
  • I don’t see what is so different of those that are backing Steyn to those of us backing Lambie?

  • Comment 191, posted at 22.11.13 08:12:53 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • Should we all just agree and say every player the coach chooses is definitely the best?

    I’ve disagree on many selection of Bok coaches and Sharks coaches, but never has the reaction been so great.

    Where was all the Spies lovers when we continually bashed his selection above others?

    So we disagree on a selection. It would never be such a big issue if your backlash to our support of a certain player wasn’t that massive.

  • Comment 192, posted at 22.11.13 08:16:58 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • Also for some reason when we prefer Lambie ahead of Zane Kirchner everyone makes an issue about it.

    Why hasn’t there been made any issue of us preferring Willie ahead of Kirchner and even Lambie?

    Is it that you have specific issue with Lambie?

    Because I don’t think we only back Lambie on this site, we back plenty of other players that the coach don’t always back.

  • Comment 193, posted at 22.11.13 08:18:48 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 193) : plenty of other SHARKS players

  • Comment 194, posted at 22.11.13 08:26:26 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©Head Coach
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 193) : good morning.have you managed to find a copy of the sharks vs wp final ?

  • Comment 195, posted at 22.11.13 08:33:47 by 50shadesofblackandwhite Reply

    Under 21 player
     
  • @50shadesofblackandwhite (Comment 195) :
    http://www.youtube.com/embed/F8-urjw7oD8?wmode=opaque

  • Comment 196, posted at 22.11.13 08:47:53 by Uli Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli BoelieSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Talent (Comment 189) : coetsee plays 6, and meyer has already said kolisi’s future lies at 6. Spies can only cover 8. ABotha can cover 7/8. What I picked up from HM, he rate Botha

  • Comment 197, posted at 22.11.13 08:51:27 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 135) : @Morné (Comment 135) : NO ladies. Ignorance on your part for not reading/understanding my post.

    Did I say Smit was the only reason we lost?? No, but you are to blinded by your own ignorance to notice.

    95% OF PEOPLE ON ANY RUGBY SITE WOULD AGREE THAT THE BOKS WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF WITH BISMARCK AS THE STARTING 2!!!!

    What Id love you to explain is how Lambie has outplayed Morne at the lower levels of Currie Cup and Super Rugby – On more than 1 occasion and in pressure games….Why then, if test rugby is a step up, would Morne suddenly be better??

    Also, this horse shit of – he does not suit our gameplan – BITCH PLEASE, that is the age old problem in SA rugby. YOU PICK THE MOST COMPLETE PLAYER IN ORDER TO EXECUTE THE COMPLETE GAME.

    ‘Maar Dis mos al die jare so’ – ja boet and since the rise of the professional era, where PURE BULK is not sufficient we have a losing record against the best.

  • Comment 198, posted at 22.11.13 08:53:04 by pienaar111 Reply

    pienaar111Currie Cup player
     
  • @pienaar111 (Comment 198) : skapie has never out played steyn…..get over it!! Lambie is k@k!!

  • Comment 199, posted at 22.11.13 09:16:01 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 167) : I think you are the one living in a dream world – the one weekend belonged to you guys last year – for the last 10+ years your (WPRU) achievements have been as barren as the rugby your heroes have dished up.

  • Comment 200, posted at 22.11.13 09:16:18 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 199) : Why does your girlfriend and confidant keep picking him then, O special one?

  • Comment 201, posted at 22.11.13 09:20:31 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • Arguing about lambie is boring now. Name another player to argue about. Possible options pls………………….lol

  • Comment 202, posted at 22.11.13 09:21:05 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Uli (Comment 196) : thank you.

  • Comment 203, posted at 22.11.13 09:25:34 by 50shadesofblackandwhite Reply

    Under 21 player
     
  • http://io9.com/5974468/the-most-common-cognitive-biases-that-prevent-you-from-being-rational

    Use it, don’t use it.

  • Comment 204, posted at 22.11.13 09:25:58 by vanmartin Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter Author
    vanmartinTeam captain
     
  • @pienaar111 (Comment 198) :

    Aaahhh, even more figures thrown around from obvious reliable and scientifically gathered sources. 95% you say?

    And outplayed in whose opinion?

    2013 – top point scorer in Super Rugby – Morne Steyn (Lambie 4th 70 points adrift) – tries: Steyn 2; Lambie 1.

    But wait, Lambie creates more than Steyn so how many team tries in total was scored? Top South African team for most tries scored: Bulls.

    2012, Top SA point scorer – Morne Steyn (2nd overall) – Lambie 8th, 80 points adrift. Top overall try scorer, Bjorn Basson – Bulls wing.

    2011, Top SA point scorer – Morne Steyn (2nd overall) – Lambie 4th, 20 points adrift. Top overall try scorer, Bjorn Basson – Bulls wing.

    2010, Top SA point scorer – Morne Steyn (1st overall) – Lambie, not in the top 10. Top SA try scorer, Gerhard van der Heever (still Bulls then), Bulls wing

    TYPING SHIT IN CAPS DOES NOT MAKE IT FACT.

    Bulls scored the most tries in 2013, their wings are the individual top try scorers which means the ball must get to them somehow.

    I am all for a decent debate, but please, stop sucking shit out of your ass.

  • Comment 205, posted at 22.11.13 09:42:52 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 205) : their wings are the individual top try scorers which means the ball must get to them somehow.

    Kick-chase?

    :p

  • Comment 206, posted at 22.11.13 09:44:09 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • Sharks Rugby put up an interesting interview with Jake White: “I have told them they are going to win Super Rugby”.

    http://www.sharksrugby.co.za/news#article2210564

    Yes, I’m trying to change the subject :mrgreen:

  • Comment 207, posted at 22.11.13 09:46:00 by vanmartin Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter Author
    vanmartinTeam captain
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 206) :

    You are welcome to go through the clips ;)

  • Comment 208, posted at 22.11.13 09:47:49 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 205) :

    When you compare only Lambie and Morne, it’s hard to say what the stats imply. Why don’t we add a couple of other flyhalfs that we all believe is better than Morne and see how he fares in the stats against them.

    I don’t have the stats, but I bet in these particular stats there is a chance that Morne could beat out players like Dan, Cooper, Goosen, Cruden, Barrett. Just because these specific stats are better for Morne does not make him a better player than all these flyhalfs.

    He’s been playing in a very strong provincial side the past 3 years. You have definitely proven that.

    Let me just ask this, to get an idea how you actually rate Morne (not compared to Lambie), just as a player on his own:

    Who do you rate as the top 5 flyhalfs in the world over the past 3 years? Is Morne one of them for you?

    Do you feel Morne is one of the better flyhalfs SA has produced or that he just stepped in at a time when the talent pools in this position was particularly bad?

    And just a for instance – do you feel that if we discovered a young player right now (no one specific) that shows the same qualities of a young Dan Carter that we should be testing him and test level now and see if we could get him ready as a WC option or that Morne is good enough, not to be looking at any other options right now, no matter how promising?

  • Comment 209, posted at 22.11.13 10:03:46 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 208) : very safe way to win the argument, if a little underhanded :)

  • Comment 210, posted at 22.11.13 10:05:42 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 207) : Why?

  • Comment 211, posted at 22.11.13 10:06:20 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • I don’t really care who replaces Morne, my opinion for the last 4 years, since his first game, was that we need better in that position, until Lambie and soon after that Jantjies, Goosen and even Demitri and Pollard, Steyn was pretty much our only option. Not best. Only.

    My issue is that, aside from the fact that Morne has definitely grown as a test player and become dependable as a 10, I have never thought that he was really good enough to be the Bok 10. Specifically because I feel he lacks the creativity that so many international flyhalfs posses these days.

    It’s an opinion. I don’t have stats to backup this opinion. I’ve always felt that the Boks’ greatest weakness has been at 10, not just now, but over the years.

    Butch was one of my favorites, but before that there was a few shockers. I always thought Ruan had what it takes to become a great 10 on the field, but he never got into the right head space.

    The debate around SA 10 is a long one. Who here though Brent Russel should have been given more time at 10? I don’t think he was started at 10 for many games either. How good do you think he or even Gaffie could have been with 50 games behind their names?

    I’m just saying. Our coaches choose to pick players that is save and try to develop the other side of their play. I’ve always felt you have to pick the player who’s going to create more during the game and develop their fly-half skills like, kicking and even passing later on.

  • Comment 212, posted at 22.11.13 10:18:24 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • At least Jake is quite clear where Lambie will play for him:

    http://www.sportlive.co.za/rugby/morerugby/2013/11/22/white-lambie-must-be-at-no-10-nowhere-else

  • Comment 213, posted at 22.11.13 10:19:36 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • The reason this debate rages on is because some feel that it is that the argument can be debated as a fact. It can’t.

    There is facts of both players’ game that we can state to support our opinion of the player, but at the end of the day my opinion is that Morne is a 50 test cap flyhalf that does not posses the qualities to get close to the standards of Carter, Cooper, Larkham and others, whereas other young flyhalfs in SA do possess these qualities and given time will be able to develop into better flyhalfs than Morne.

    If not Lambie, then one of the others. And best of all HM would have had 4 years to develop these players, because they all came onto the scene before or just as he started coaching.

  • Comment 214, posted at 22.11.13 10:26:47 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • Whether the Boks want a flyhalf or would be able to use a flyhalf with the same qualities as Carter, Cooper, Larkham, Cruden in the same way the All Blacks and the Wallabies did, is a whole different debate.

  • Comment 215, posted at 22.11.13 10:29:11 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • @Bokhoring (Comment 213) :

    Very good news. I can’t wait to see how the Sharks start of under White.

  • Comment 216, posted at 22.11.13 10:32:07 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 209) :

    I don’t particularly like going to stats but if people bring up unsubstantiated daft statements there is no other option really.

    How do I rate Morne…

    If I had to describe Morne 20 years from now to my son I would say he good without being spectacular, and that his major strength was that although he was not exceptional in one specific area, he ensured all areas of his game was good making him one of the more rounded players during his time. Not the most naturally talented, he was aware of his weaknesses and spent his career improving on it.

    I would rate Morne in the top 5 flyhalf’s in the world. He played a major hand in most of our victories over the All Blacks (best team in the world) in the last 5 years, including scoring all 31 points in one game against them. He is consistent (as the record I posted above shows) and has found himself in the top two points scorers in Super Rugby since 2010. He is in the top 10 of the highest average points scorers per game of all time.

    An average player does not hold records like that (not only in test rugby, but provincial and Super Rugby too). Even in 2011 when the Bulls did not make the top 6, he was the 2nd highest point scorer.

    Considering SA flyhalfs in the last 15 years at all professional levels, we never produced a Carter-type player and although I have my theory around that, I don’t see that change soon either, not unless we change our rugby culture from schoolboy level up.

    Morne is one of the most rounded and consistent flyhalf’s we produced.

  • Comment 217, posted at 22.11.13 10:36:29 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 205) : I would be interested to see the stats for the Bulls with Liefling at 10. I suspect it to be very similar.

  • Comment 218, posted at 22.11.13 10:38:18 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • The ball is really in Lambie’s court next year. He has a S15 coach that has publicly backed him at 10. He needs to work hard at his weaknesses – especially his place kicking. I recall a time when the Bull supporters booed Steyn when he missed a couple of sitters in every game. He obviously worked hard to correct that

  • Comment 219, posted at 22.11.13 10:42:06 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 211) : The writing’s on the wall regarding the Lambie/Steyn ‘debate’ – no one is going to come away convinced by the other side’s point of view. Polarisation is the fancy term for it. At this stage most of the arguments for/against each player have probably been rehashed for the fourth or fifth time.

    TL;DR: The debate is now boring and pointless. Also, Fred Zeilinga played really well in that one Currie Cup game (he can offload!) and obviously he’s our answer at Bok 10.

  • Comment 220, posted at 22.11.13 10:44:36 by vanmartin Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter Author
    vanmartinTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 217) :

    I understand exactly why you brought up those stats. I was ignoring the post you responded to.

    Like you know, I respect your opinion and agree to a point about Morne, I think he as a player reached why above and beyond what I ever thought he would and even if there was no other option to replace him with, he still did a more than respectable job in plenty of games.

    I think I recall the debate we had around naturally talented players and we differ on this point as well (how do we get along so well?).

    I have to admit, given how low I have always ranked Morne, he has achieved a lot as a player. I respect him for that. He has clearly worked hard and aside from last year when he was off his game, he has improved immensely in most areas of his game.

    Unfortunately every time I say this about him, I think of what other young talented players might have achieved given the same backing.

    And regarding Morne’s records, they all come as a kicker and I don’t think anyone has ever debated his standard as a kicker. In fact I believe his goal-kicking is still his biggest claim to that flyhalf spot, which I suppose is not the worse thing – if you’re flyhalf is the best in one very important area of the game, that btw SA does not have the best record with.

  • Comment 221, posted at 22.11.13 11:00:00 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • @Bokhoring (Comment 213) :
    “Said White: “I think it is impossible for a player to improve if one week he plays ten minutes as a fullback and the next week starts as a flyhalf and after that is on the bench as a utility back.”

    This guy obviously does’nt know what he is talking about. :twisted:

  • Comment 222, posted at 22.11.13 11:09:56 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 222) :

    Just another EXCUSE why Lambie isn’t ruling the roost at 10 for the Boks. It’s never the players fault is it Jake White!

    :twisted:

  • Comment 223, posted at 22.11.13 11:13:34 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 215) : Cooper?? Are u mad?? Have u not watch the last worldcup?? Cooper wouldn’t even make the top 3 in SA. Steyn is the 2nd best flyhalf in the world at the moment. If HM brings in a young and inexp 10 now he will never win the worldcup. Yes MS is a save bet at 10, but he also picked willie who is not a save bet at 15…..now what. If the cheetahs win the s15 with running rugby; or the strms with their defensive rugby; or the sharks with their so called balance gameplan then we can ask HM to make some changes to his gameplan. Until then we stick with what work. Even the sharks win this year’s cc with typical bulls rugby: big, aggressive forwards and some kicking!

  • Comment 224, posted at 22.11.13 11:20:01 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 222) : this is the same guy who picked three 8th men in his loosetrio against aust and lost 49-0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In ’07 he beat england twice, fiji and argt to lift the trophy…..wow!!

  • Comment 225, posted at 22.11.13 11:26:12 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 225) : None of NZ, Australia and France were good enough to be in the final. They lost to France, England and England respectively. That is a lame argument.

  • Comment 226, posted at 22.11.13 11:39:50 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 225) : Yep the same guy that has actually beaten the All Blacks before and has already won a tri nations competition.

    You dont do yourself any favours by belittling our 2007 world cup victory – we played, and beat what was put before us – what more did you want them to do?

  • Comment 227, posted at 22.11.13 11:45:22 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 225) : Also the guy who took the Bok team when the Irish has serious ambitions of winning a game in SA. He had his bad days and weird decisions too – but he also took the Boks from 6th to 1st (granted due to WC counting extra in the rankings)

  • Comment 228, posted at 22.11.13 11:48:09 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 227) : And he won that Tri-Nations in his 1st year with the Boks.

  • Comment 229, posted at 22.11.13 11:51:51 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • trophies that count…. World Cup, Tri Nations.

    Jake White: 2
    Heyneke Meyer: 0

  • Comment 230, posted at 22.11.13 11:54:42 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • I take nothing away from our ’07 win, think we had a great team, but not crazy about the coach!

  • Comment 231, posted at 22.11.13 11:55:35 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 231) : I also have my worries about Jake (that he would drop the Sharks the moment the English job come available), but still the man has achieved a couple of things with the Boks.

    However when you belittle the win because you don’t like the coach, you also belittle the guys who played what was in front of them.

  • Comment 232, posted at 22.11.13 12:03:19 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • @Bokhoring (Comment 228) : @Bokhoring (Comment 229) : Love him or hate him, but absolutely nobody can say that he didnt leave the Boks in much better shape than he got them in.
    I can hardly believe, or remember, that we were ranked 6th.

  • Comment 233, posted at 22.11.13 12:07:09 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 231) : he has only nice things to say about you, though.

  • Comment 234, posted at 22.11.13 12:11:30 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 231) : Ok, so thats the coach and Lambie that you dislike from the Sharks…anyone else we should know about?

  • Comment 235, posted at 22.11.13 12:16:08 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 235) :

    I used to dislike Fred the Frog!! :twisted: ;-) :lol:

  • Comment 236, posted at 22.11.13 12:40:19 by wpw Reply
    Administrator
    wpwAssistant coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 234) : Who doesn’t?

  • Comment 237, posted at 22.11.13 12:59:56 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 235) : Reinach! Not a big fan.

  • Comment 238, posted at 22.11.13 13:05:33 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @wpw (Comment 236) : :razz: :lol:

  • Comment 239, posted at 22.11.13 13:07:56 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply

    Salmonoid the SubtleTeam captain
     
  • Also think kdaniel should never have switch to nr8. He was never gonna make it as a international 8th man, but as a opensider he was always in with a shot, he was relentless. Finaly we have coetzee and kolisi now

  • Comment 240, posted at 22.11.13 13:22:59 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 235) : Three dislikes is not a bad return……lol. Shit I think there’s only three guys I like in the whole wp team!

  • Comment 241, posted at 22.11.13 13:28:38 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 241) : who are they? I’d battle to find three…

    Pat Cilliers, Jaco Taute and…. ummm….

  • Comment 242, posted at 22.11.13 13:47:16 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 224) :

    Well see then there’s the huge difference of opinion, because I don’t rate Morne among the top flyhalfs at all. There’s more than 5 I would select in my team before I select him – excluding Lambie.

    It’s not even about Lambie for me, it’s about finding a top class flyhalf to replace just solid (excellent goal-kicker) one – whoever that might be.

    Take you pick of the young flyhalfs, I wouldn’t say no to many of them over Morne.

  • Comment 243, posted at 22.11.13 14:19:35 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 221) :

    Our issues at flyhalf imo, or developing the Wilko or Carter type players has everything to do with our approach to the game and the fact that we prefer in almost all cases and at all levels to run plays off our 9, not our 10.

    For me there is no doubt that we produced the best 9′s the world has seen in the last 20 years specifically 2 guys in Joost and FDP.

    None of the 9′s NZ produced over this time comes close to these two imo. And it is not just these two, there are a few other 9′s who could have walked into most international teams except the jersey was owned by them.

    The gap in skill for 9′s between us and NZ as an example is the same as the gap they have over us at 10. But then again, they play off their 10 and we do off our 9′s.

    There are also other factors involved like a win-at-all-cost mentality (and a stupid national ranking system) at school level where the expression of skill is not encouraged, but rather a territory based game.

    This is also why you will find the Lambie’s, Elton’s (just look at what happened when he came to the Stormers for a year), Goosen’s struggle to express themselves if they are teamed with dominant, decision-making 9′s. With Sarel or Piet Goosen looks phenominal, but don’t expect the same when he runs next to FDP. Same goes for Lambie with Reinach or Charl and Elton etc.

    This is also why I believe a SA Carter-like player is still some way away.

  • Comment 244, posted at 22.11.13 14:28:26 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 242) :

    Philistine.
    That’s rugby royalty that you’re dissing there.

  • Comment 245, posted at 22.11.13 14:31:16 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 244) :

    This is why I still like you. You always seem to make sense.

    That is a very good observation about our 9′s. The problem is since Fdp we haven’t found the same quality 9 as either of the guys you mentioned. I think Aaron Smith is a better rounded scrummy than any of our up and coming scrummies at this stage. This is maybe a good reason why Morne struggled in 2012.

    Maybe with the emergence of these young flyhalfs that we’re talking about scrummies that has been playing with them and coming up through the ranks with them, haven’t had the need to take control of games like Joost and Fdp did, therefore they haven’t developed into the same type of player, maybe then it is time to shift away from this 9 makes the decisions game and use some of these young talented 10′s.

    There’s quite a few guys (under the age of 24) that could play with our current crop of 9′s, but Morne will always look better with a Fdp.

  • Comment 246, posted at 22.11.13 15:49:38 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 246) :

    In saying this, maybe HM isn’t the coach to do this, as he’s always coached teams with the dominant 9 at the helm of decision making.

  • Comment 247, posted at 22.11.13 15:51:43 by Letgo Reply
    Author
    LetgoTeam captain
     
  • http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SpringboksintheUK/Sport24-chats-to-Andre-Joubert-20131121

    Andre Jouberts opinion On Patrick Lambie.

  • Comment 248, posted at 22.11.13 16:12:43 by Bump Reply

    BumpCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 246) :

    It is also the reason Francois Hougaard is struggling, he was asked to mould his game around what FDP did and he struggled.

    I was surprised when Heyneke invited Piet van Zyl to the Boks a while back, he has zero kicking game and it is an aspect almost all our SR teams with the exception of the Cheetahs demand from their 9′s. It is also as you mention an aspect Heyneke enjoys as a coach.

    I think coaches at national level will not evolve much, or change what they believe in (game plan, tactics, type of players and roles etc) so this transition won’t happen overnight and not under Heyneke I believe.

    Of course it stands to debate which way is better, playing off a 9 or 10 which is a whole other discussion.

  • Comment 249, posted at 22.11.13 17:00:24 by Morné Reply
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    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 249) : I’d read an article debating which position is better to play off ;)

  • Comment 250, posted at 22.11.13 18:12:55 by vanmartin Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter Author
    vanmartinTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 205) : That’s one dimensional thinking.

    First of all, how many points a first choice 10 scores in a season is more down to the gameplan of the team than the accuracy of the flyhalf.

    Second, I don’t doubt that Steyn is a more capable goal-kicker, but Lambie is no slouch.

    Third, counting the 2010 season is daft. Lambie only made his debut half way through and wasn’t first choice goal-kicker. In fact, I believe all his points came from tries. This is all irrelevant because at the time he didn’t even play flyhalf.

    Fourth, in 2011 I see you chose not to mention that Lambie scored 4 tries to Steyn’s 0. The technical term for that is bias by omission.

    Fifth, 2012 saw Lambie injured for a while. Adding his and Michalak’s points gives you a value of 248, 18 points higher than Steyn plus Fouché. I’m not saying that this is evidence towards Lambie being the better 10, but simply pointing out the flaws in your so-called evidence.

    Sixth, your theory about the wings may be true, but passing the ball out to the outside backs is something one would expect any 10 to be able to do. What created the tries is more than likely either an over lap or some good outside back play, not down to any sort of flyhalf genius. This is mirrored in the Boks this year. Our tries have come from guys like de Villiers, Habana, Engelbrecht, and especially le Roux. Morné Steyn has been the steady connection to those guys, while not adding much more than his boot.

    On the subject of his boot, let’s recognize the fact that Lambie is able to vary his play far more, running, chipping, grubbering, and distributing. Lambie very nearly created a try just last weekend with a grubber, only for Fourie to mess it up if I remember correctly (in front of the kicker was it?).

    I don’t think anybody is saying that Lambie is leagues ahead of Steyn, but he is clearly more capable and a far wiser option going forward. Lambie is young. Steyn is 29 and lives with the frogs now too!

    I sincerely hope Jake White can bring the best out of Lambie in 2014, because I don’t think we’ve seen it yet.

  • Comment 251, posted at 22.11.13 18:29:44 by David12246 Reply

    David12246Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 25) : Surely you mean cover flyhalf, centre and full back. Lambie on the wing???

  • Comment 252, posted at 22.11.13 21:39:00 by markp Reply

    markpUnder 21 player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 217) : Very well rounded especially when he runs the ball in hand and his distribution skills are exceptional. The best tackler I have seen in a long time. Yes I am also blind and have no idea how rugby is played just like you.

  • Comment 253, posted at 22.11.13 21:46:34 by markp Reply

    markpUnder 21 player
     
  • @David12246 (Comment 251) :

    David, what is the most important thing we always ask of any of our players or coaches?

    Consistency right?

    The stats quoted on Morne was done for one specific reason, his consistency in always ending up in the top end of players that plays where he plays and is expected to do what he does.

    No, Morne is no Dan Carter and never will be, but you know what, neither is Lambie.

    You highlight the inconsistency and unfairness in my statistics stating Lambie did not always enjoy full seasons at flyhalf in Super Rugby to stake his claim – but that just enforces the point. Why did his provincial coaches not back him as the best option in that jersey at times but now we expect the national coach to do just that?

    Consistency will always trump cameos and I think we all want that to remain the case in point.

    Also, not that we should hold this against Lambie but why could a guy like Willie le Roux in a handful of tests prove beyond a doubt (Meyer admitting that even before this tour he was not sure about Le Roux) that he is a better option than the ‘safe’ and ‘trusted’ option of Kirchner (the veteran) at fullback but Lambie could not or rather, did not?

    Jake White, your new DOR has a philosophy… During his time as national coach he made the comment that the guy in the wings needed to show he is 10 to 15% better in his play than the Springbok incumbent for him to take the challenge to the position seriously. Can we honestly say Lambie has proved this?

    He is no Dan Carter, but Morne has established himself as the #1 flyhalf in SA rugby through consistent performances for his franchise and the national team. And no-one, including Lambie, has shown the same amount of consistency in performances to suggest they are better options.

    Jake has promised Lambie the #10 jersey for the Sharks in Super Rugby in 2014, like Le Roux, he has the opportunity to dethrone the incumbent who now plays in France. It is up to him to make the most of it and if he does, bloody well done to him. Personally, he should own the #15 jersey for the next 10 years imo.

  • Comment 254, posted at 22.11.13 21:48:58 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @David12246 (Comment 251) : Well said David. Steyn is a very capable flyhalf for a certain style of rugby. He will do well in the Currie Cup, Super Rugby and against weaker national teams. To play the AB’s and win when we need more. Lambie is not there yet, he needs to improve the part of his game that Steyn has already mastered. The areas where Steyn falls short Lambie is a natural and with more time on the field he will get even better. The boks will need a more rounded game with options to beat the AB’s, Lambie kicking better and regaining some of his flair will give us that. Steyn won’t. It will be interesting to see how Steyn goes in France, the experience could help improve some of his weaker attributes.

  • Comment 255, posted at 22.11.13 21:56:07 by markp Reply

    markpUnder 21 player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 146) : Back in Naas’s day a flyhalf could get by without having to tackle. Today the game has changed and everyone in the team needs to be able to defend well when called upon even the flyhalf. But judging by your comments you haven’t noticed that the game has changed and the best teams in the world are the ones with a great defence by all 15 players on the pitch. All you need is one hole, one try and the match is lost.

  • Comment 256, posted at 22.11.13 22:01:26 by markp Reply

    markpUnder 21 player
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 250) :

    Maybe I will create an alias and post something over the holidays ;)

  • Comment 257, posted at 22.11.13 22:07:10 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • With all due respect, I am done on this topic for now. Thanks for the chat, time to focus on Boks v Frogs tomorrow. Cheers all.

  • Comment 258, posted at 22.11.13 22:08:42 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 254) : You need to do your home work bud. The reason why Lambie did not enjoy full seasons had nothing to do with the coaches confidence in him. Read David’s comment again and this time take time to comprehend it. Consistency cameos? I have to laugh. If that is the case Lambie has played a cameo in every game including the bits and pieces in the green jersey.

  • Comment 259, posted at 22.11.13 22:12:18 by markp Reply

    markpUnder 21 player
     
  • @markp (Comment 259) :

    Just this one though…

    When did Lambie enjoy a full season at 10 for the Sharks (injury apart of course)?

    Because if we are going to do some proper homework then let’s have a look at how many of the 46 games (excluding play-off’s) since 2011 (since he made his debut in 2010 only) Lambie started at flyhalf for the Sharks in Super Rugby.

    I am sure Sharks supporters have these type of stats saved in their personal diaries.

  • Comment 260, posted at 22.11.13 22:17:22 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • Okay too tired to stick around. Gone. Cheers.

  • Comment 261, posted at 22.11.13 22:42:54 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 260) : sigh. You meant me, didn’t you?

  • Comment 262, posted at 22.11.13 23:54:39 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 262) :

    Well come on, spill the stats Robbo!

  • Comment 263, posted at 23.11.13 00:14:04 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 205) : All I ask of bloggers on any site with any opinion is, is maturity.

    You lack in this department. i never quoted figures. that was just a general consensu and you knew that, so why resort to pre school responses??

    Pulling facts about Morne’s goalkicking is, again, not the point of thr argument since no one here is doubting his class in that regard.

    The Bulls are and have been a better team (performance wise anyway) and their dominance translates to points – again we know and repect that.

    Finally….(a few subjective facts) Lambo received Man of Match (3 if not mistaken) awards in few of those games, which means Im not the only one who thinks this….

    You would do well to follow Richard Ferguson’s maturity and common sense when debating opinions…he and I have agreed and disagreed but he never stoops to this level of immaturity.

  • Comment 264, posted at 23.11.13 02:26:02 by pienaar111 Reply

    pienaar111Currie Cup player
     
  • @David12246 (Comment 251) : Amen my friend. That is the exact msg I was trying to get across. And ja him insulting my so called facts’ and then bringing up (and leaving out ;-) those is laughable.

  • Comment 265, posted at 23.11.13 02:33:39 by pienaar111 Reply

    pienaar111Currie Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 262) :

    You don’t have a pointing smiley but yes ;)

    @pienaar111 (Comment 264) :

    You are kidding right?

    The only Sharks and Lambie supporter on here that showed any class and maturity in debate is Letgo, as she always does.

  • Comment 266, posted at 23.11.13 07:38:54 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • Any event, all that can be said has been said. I am off this subject.

  • Comment 267, posted at 23.11.13 08:04:36 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Morné (Comment 266) :
    Gee thanks Morné. I can understand you saying that Rob character has no class, but why call me out like that too?

  • Comment 268, posted at 23.11.13 08:20:03 by Big Fish Reply
    Administrator
    Big FishTeam captain
     
  • @Big Fish (Comment 268) :

    You hardly spoke a word here dude! :twisted:

    Must say I don’t recognise half the guys on here.

  • Comment 269, posted at 23.11.13 08:47:28 by Morné Reply
    Administrator
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • I think we would all agree steyn is not perfect, but his tactical kicking and goal kicking is probably the best in the world. Lambie does tackle better and is more exciting. So is goosen! I thought demitri was awesome in last years cc final, he was calm and collective, he drop with his left and right foot[wow!], he controlled the game nicely[by that I mean he decided where his forwards will play on the field, when to kick, when to run, when to pass and attack]. He did everything right and at the right time. Does that mean he should be our next 10…..no! Lambie, goosen and demitri will probably all be a better 10 than steyn, but they first need to prove it more consistently and not here and there. With steyn not playing s15 the ball is in their hands. Lambie and demitri both got good teams, which will give them more shots at goal!! But the tahs play goosen’s type of all out running rugby. So game on and let the best man win!!

  • Comment 270, posted at 23.11.13 09:17:37 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • Ok I did it……I found 3 wp players I like[not as easy as u might think]…..1vermeulen; 2etzebeth; 3kolisi…..even found 3 up and coming players that looks good…..de allende/malherbe/demitri [yes malherbe is a bok already, but still only 22] lol

  • Comment 271, posted at 23.11.13 11:20:16 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 270) : well explained on the CONTROL a game ,thanks

  • Comment 272, posted at 23.11.13 11:52:31 by benji Reply

    Currie Cup player
     
  • @markp (Comment 256) : well put to and that is the problem with SA rugby,the game has changed and the only two who from time to time come close to the proper 10 are The Cat and the Goose

  • Comment 273, posted at 23.11.13 11:59:14 by benji Reply

    Currie Cup player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 271) :

    What you got against gingers? :twisted:

  • Comment 274, posted at 23.11.13 14:07:17 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 270) :

    That pretty much summed up my thoughts in a far less antagonising manner.

  • Comment 275, posted at 23.11.13 14:08:26 by VinChainSaw Reply
    Author
    VinChainSawSuper Rugby player
     
  • @KingsArmy (Comment 271) : As a supporter of another team (i.e. not WP), how can you not like Brok Harris – the guy they invented the new position of prop-half for?

  • Comment 276, posted at 23.11.13 14:18:36 by Bokhoring Reply

    BokhoringTeam captain
     
  • @Bokhoring (Comment 276) : fck that’s funny!

  • Comment 277, posted at 23.11.13 14:46:28 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 274) : lol nothing! Kitshoff looks good too! If I may give him abit of constructive criticism…..he’s abit lazy for a LH…..os du randt was a big prop, but man could he run and tackle!

  • Comment 278, posted at 23.11.13 15:01:31 by KingsArmy Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     

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