robdylan

My word is NOT my bond, says SA Schools captain


Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :Original Content, Sharks on 12 Dec 2014 at 10:16
Tagged with : , , ,

The ugly face of the meat market that is junior rugby recruiting has come to the fore again, with SA Schools captain Barend Smit pulling out of a commitment to join the Sharks in 2015 and opting to become a Lion instead.

Details are sketchy, but our information is that the Sharks had Smit signed up on a contract pretty early last year, before the Lions gazumped them with an offer for significantly more money. Even at the age of 18, it seems, the mercenary blood runs strong in our game and rather than opting to fulfil his obligations to the Sharks (who are very fair in terms of rapidly increasing payments to young players who make the grade), Smit and his family opted to “lawyer up” instead in order to break the deal.

Our sources tell us that it’s not the first time this has happened either, with the same player walking away from a commitment to join an up-and-coming Durban school some years ago.

Ugly, ugly, ugly.



163 Comments

  • some pop some dont. jerry maguire

  • Comment 1, posted at 12.12.14 10:20:53 by West Indies Cricket Board Reply
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  • Rob, this is a blessing in disguise, the Sharks do not need these kind of players in their ranks, infact him being a turncoat should have put them off signing him in the first place.

    Also remember who is in the for front of making players turn back on their word, “HE DID THE SAME AT THE SHARK” Struelli

  • Comment 2, posted at 12.12.14 10:22:35 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • The Sharks need players that will live and die for the jersey, the rest can take a hike.

  • Comment 3, posted at 12.12.14 10:23:53 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • What position does he play?

  • Comment 4, posted at 12.12.14 10:27:27 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 4) : fullback or outside center

  • Comment 5, posted at 12.12.14 10:28:05 by robdylan Reply
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  • Say what you want about Streauli, and I am not a fan…..but he has come to the party big time at the Lions. They are turning that union back into a force. Wish we had someone similar……o ja I forgot we mos buy has beens…

  • Comment 6, posted at 12.12.14 10:30:49 by Lieplapper Reply

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  • I like the story of Thomas du Toits signing. During a game a commentator said when a agent from another team came to offer Thomas a contract, he was sitting in his living room with a Sharks jersey watching a sharks game. His twitter post after his first super rugby appearance also says a lot… something to the effect of, what an honor to pull this jersey over my head, a dream come true.

    If the Sharks treats this young man fairly he’ll never play for any other SA union… I don’t believe.

  • Comment 7, posted at 12.12.14 10:33:14 by Letgo Reply
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  • Well Joburg is such a scenic city…

    I wonder at what point SARU will need to jump in as I can only imagine this is not a unique occurrence

  • Comment 8, posted at 12.12.14 10:33:32 by vanmartin Reply
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  • Hope the Sharks had a solid contract with him and they nail him for breaking contract and every cent that they can!!!!! Pathetic to be so focused on money that your word does not count for anything and everything that at thr age of 18!!!!!

  • Comment 9, posted at 12.12.14 10:33:35 by JD Reply
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  • Good riddance!

  • Comment 10, posted at 12.12.14 10:34:48 by Bump Reply

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  • @vanmartin (Comment 8) : only way to stop this is with a salary cap for youngsters! !!!!

  • Comment 11, posted at 12.12.14 10:36:23 by JD Reply
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  • @Bump (Comment 10) : ………….. to bad rubbish!!!!!!!!

  • Comment 12, posted at 12.12.14 10:37:34 by JD Reply
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  • They can have him for free if they give us Andries Coetzee.

  • Comment 13, posted at 12.12.14 10:48:12 by Southern_Shark Reply
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  • It happens. I think we might have benefited from a few in our time as well. ;-)

    Not sure that our centre stocks require replenishing right now either – so wouldnt make sense to have got into a bidding war.

    Personally, I am glad to see the back of Straueli despite the signing that he might be making right now. None of the Sharks players I spoke to over the last few years had anything positive to say about him or his integrity. Young Barend may find that out first hand.

  • Comment 14, posted at 12.12.14 10:55:08 by Big Fish Reply
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  • @vanmartin (Comment 8) :

    Never. Unions do their own thing. SARU just ensures that the correct release forms (if there was a binding contract) and development fees (if applicable) are paid. This is more an issue SARPA will jump onto if there is anything sinister.

    Loyalty lies with the guy that gives you the biggest pay-cheque.

  • Comment 15, posted at 12.12.14 10:56:40 by Morné Reply
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  • You guys are being harsh on this lightie, he is from Middelburg, he probably cant string 2 words of English together, he would have been like a Shark out of water in Durban. Anyway at this age Im sure its more a case of his parents pushing the decision than him.

  • Comment 16, posted at 12.12.14 11:06:49 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 16) :

    No union is exempt from this type of thing. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

  • Comment 17, posted at 12.12.14 11:09:07 by Morné Reply
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  • Let the guy go. Is does seem shocking that the contracts seem to be so easily breakable. I’d rather save on the lawyers fees and use the money they earmarked for him on someone who wants to play for the sharks!

  • Comment 18, posted at 12.12.14 11:09:38 by PTAShark Reply
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  • Love or hate the man, Straueli has a job to do and he does it bloody well for whomever he is working. Sharks lost a big (influential) fish when he moved on.

  • Comment 19, posted at 12.12.14 11:10:22 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 16) : oh, so he’s too young to know right from wrong?

  • Comment 20, posted at 12.12.14 11:26:20 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 17) :

    you notice how they cheer wen Alberts does something good ? yea well …

  • Comment 21, posted at 12.12.14 11:28:01 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 20) :Of course he should know but he is from Middelburg…. :twisted:

  • Comment 22, posted at 12.12.14 11:35:19 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 21) : Explain.

  • Comment 23, posted at 12.12.14 11:38:12 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 23) :

    you dont remember the Ludik , Alberts , mosterd saga ?

  • Comment 24, posted at 12.12.14 11:41:22 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 24) : I also remember the Mapoe Saga

  • Comment 25, posted at 12.12.14 11:46:14 by durbsguy Reply

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  • @Zibbie (Comment 24) : Vaguely, refresher course please.

  • Comment 26, posted at 12.12.14 11:46:30 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @durbsguy (Comment 25) :

    Like Morne says . …

    my point is that you cant go all moral on this when you guys have done the same thing in the past .

  • Comment 27, posted at 12.12.14 11:48:54 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 26) :

    what this oke did , just the other way .

  • Comment 28, posted at 12.12.14 11:50:30 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 28) : Not so much, those 3 would have paid the Lions themselves in order to leave… you couldn’t pay them enough money to go back to the Lions.

  • Comment 29, posted at 12.12.14 11:54:17 by lostfish Reply
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  • Sounds like a stand up guy :roll:

  • Comment 30, posted at 12.12.14 11:54:55 by lostfish Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 28) : :shock: wow, we contracted those guys while still at school, I thought they were grown men when they arrived at the Sharks.

  • Comment 31, posted at 12.12.14 11:55:03 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @lostfish (Comment 29) :

    ok so if we dont pay them enough its ok to break a contract ?

    “Details are sketchy, but our information is that the Sharks had Smit signed up on a contract pretty early last year, before the Lions gazumped them with an offer for significantly more money.”

  • Comment 32, posted at 12.12.14 11:57:30 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 31) :

    lol . no i mean they also broke contract .

  • Comment 33, posted at 12.12.14 11:58:22 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Letgo (Comment 7) : Amen, these are the kids we need at the Sharks.

  • Comment 34, posted at 12.12.14 12:01:56 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 27) : @Morné (Comment 15) : Guys I agree and I myself am not blaming the Lions or any union, like I said, we do not need turncoats as that player for the most does not love the jersey he plays for, I did mention Streuli as he is known for this kind of thing, and yes even when at the Sharks.

  • Comment 35, posted at 12.12.14 12:07:28 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 33) : Difference here is the players you mentioned had problems etc at the union, in this case the kid has never been at the Sharks and actually had done this before even at school level,

  • Comment 36, posted at 12.12.14 12:11:52 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • Everyone must just let it go, you cannot force someone to play for a team that he is not committed to.

    Straueli seriously knows what he is doing, something he actually never really got credit for when at the Sharks. He knows how to convince players to rather join his team. The Lions are going to be healthy for sometime to come. Good luck to them they deserve a few good years.

  • Comment 37, posted at 12.12.14 12:14:54 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @sharks_lover (Comment 36) :

    still doesnt make it right to walk out of a contract .
    If you have problems at work , do you just take your stuff and never show up again ?

  • Comment 38, posted at 12.12.14 12:15:18 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 37) : I agree thus I said we do not need that kind of player…… ;-)

  • Comment 39, posted at 12.12.14 12:16:32 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 38) : Agree.

  • Comment 40, posted at 12.12.14 12:31:06 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • Hmmm…

  • Comment 41, posted at 12.12.14 12:38:39 by pastorshark Reply
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  • Straueli is doing the same thing for Lions as he has done in the past for the Sharks.Singing as massive amount of youngsters for the union.How many young players left the Sharks Acadamy to join other unions because they simply did not get their chance in the senior teams?How much money was wasted at the Sharks on the player to develop him simply to walk away and sign for another province?The Lions(Straueli?)must be careful not to repeat the same mistake as he did at the Sharks.

  • Comment 42, posted at 12.12.14 12:58:43 by Phil46 Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 15) : My point is actually not particular union I support. Surely it sets a dangerous precedent for foreign clubs poaching our more talented youths?

    Would SARU not become concerned if some foreign club outbid a local union a youngster had signed for?

  • Comment 43, posted at 12.12.14 13:11:09 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @Phil46 (Comment 42) :
    Exactly. Straueli was the reason for plenty of player disquiet at the Sharks. I like to think that the brand we are trying to build is better without him.

  • Comment 44, posted at 12.12.14 13:15:06 by Big Fish Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 21) : First off, congrats on the Lions Emirates sponsorship Zibbie, it’s well deserved.

    I don’t like the idea of a player breaking contract unless the other party is not honouring their end (in which case the contract is invalidated) or exit clauses apply.

    I’m not sure what the details were for Alberts and co but if they straight-up broke contract without valid legal reason to do so, it should not be considered okay.

    What I personally find surprising about this particular case is how young the individual involved his. He hasn’t played a day of senior rugby and he’s already got this behind his name. It doesn’t make his case ‘more special’ but it’s certainly noteworthy at the very least.

  • Comment 45, posted at 12.12.14 13:25:32 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 32) : I think you missed my point. The trio were so unhappy at the Lions that they would never return to them, it wouldn’t matter how much they were offered.

  • Comment 46, posted at 12.12.14 13:29:25 by lostfish Reply
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  • @vanmartin (Comment 46) :

    thanks . Hope we can improve somewhat .

    well look . im not saying its right . my question is what if it was the other way around ? i suspect very few sharks world readers would object ? The direct of the deal should not determine if its ok or not .

    But like you guys did , we wont complain about getting a player .

  • Comment 47, posted at 12.12.14 13:31:31 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 38) : At that stage if the game the Lions were in such a mess pretty much everyone wanted to leave. Ludik and Alberts aren’t the kind of guys to pick up sticks and leave just for more money.

  • Comment 48, posted at 12.12.14 13:32:37 by lostfish Reply
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  • @lostfish (Comment 46) :

    great . so that makes it ok to walk out of a contract ? im not sure its ever ok to do that .

  • Comment 49, posted at 12.12.14 13:38:19 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 47) : Absolutely, with one exception. The only time the direction should not be a concern is when any union poaches from the Bulls ;)

  • Comment 50, posted at 12.12.14 13:39:15 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @vanmartin (Comment 50) :

    hahaha . yea i can go with that !

  • Comment 51, posted at 12.12.14 13:41:10 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 49) : It’s never a great option but if working conditions are untenable then what else can they do.

  • Comment 52, posted at 12.12.14 13:42:47 by lostfish Reply
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  • @lostfish (Comment 48) :

    lol . so if everybody does it its ok to break contract then ?

    making excuses wont make what they did any better . sadly

  • Comment 53, posted at 12.12.14 13:42:56 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 49) : anyhow, that point is moot as the courts decided that their contracts were not valid as the Lions hadn’t done certain things.

  • Comment 54, posted at 12.12.14 13:45:42 by lostfish Reply
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  • @lostfish (Comment 54) :

    indeed . and i suspect the same happened with this player . A court ruled that his contract with the sharks is not valid (for what ever reason) .

    Like i told VanMartin . If its not ok one way it should not be ok in the other direction

  • Comment 55, posted at 12.12.14 13:49:08 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Phil46 (Comment 42) :”How many young players left the Sharks Acadamy to join other unions because they simply did not get their chance in the senior teams?”
    How is this Straueli’s fault – he had nothing to do with team selections and even if he did which of those youngsters you mention should have replaced which senior players.

  • Comment 56, posted at 12.12.14 14:13:04 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • Why is everybody pointing fingers at the player, Straeuli, Sharks and Lions managements and the boy’s parents? The culprit here is more than likely the agent. And as somebody has said, there was more than likely an exit clause in the contract.

  • Comment 57, posted at 12.12.14 14:49:51 by Lion4ever Reply

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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 56) : Not blaming Straueli of anything.I am just believe in smaller squads,developing the young player and keep the system moving instead of signing every player on the market.Straueli was in charge of the recruitment drive at the Sharks ;-)

  • Comment 58, posted at 12.12.14 14:50:17 by Phil46 Reply

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  • @lostfish (Comment 52) : TRUE!

  • Comment 59, posted at 12.12.14 15:16:28 by [email protected] Reply

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  • Lionel Mapoe, Willem Alberts, Louis Ludick etc refer.
    Hello pot, I’m a kettle, what colour are you?
    :lol

  • Comment 60, posted at 12.12.14 15:17:26 by Greg Reply

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  • @Phil46 (Comment 58) : Well looking at the Sharks squad over the last couple of years then one needs to take their hat off to Straueli and aknowledge a job well done. If he can do the same at the Lions they are going to be a serious threat to all teams.

  • Comment 61, posted at 12.12.14 15:43:26 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 61) : Lions is going to be a strong force if they keep there momentum going in 2015.Like i said before,nothing against Straueli.Have done lots of great things for the Sharks in past.

  • Comment 62, posted at 12.12.14 16:04:37 by Phil46 Reply

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  • Mapoe is a lions player is he not? As for the other players I doubt they started this fence jumping when they were only in high school. Lastly, you are more than welcome to this guy, if he does this at 18 let’s see how fickle he gets IF he gets to play seniors. At least WE won’t have invested time money and effort in him just to see him jump ship at a critical stage. You will always have to worry about his loyalty. He is by a long shot not the only or most talented player but he has shown his colors and starting this early he may well be on his way to being the least loyal. CONGRATS.

  • Comment 63, posted at 12.12.14 16:25:16 by coolfusion Reply

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  • @sharks_lover (Comment 2) : I agree, better they see him for what he is now. Before investing in him. He must be careful though other teams may also stay away from him because he is a risky investment.

  • Comment 64, posted at 12.12.14 16:28:57 by coolfusion Reply

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  • @Greg (Comment 60) : The hypocrisy of us Sharks supporters has no limits :mrgreen: :twisted: One need look no further than Mapoe, it was perfectly fine when he was training with the Sharks while contracted to the Cheetahs, but when he signed with the Lions, the attacks of disloyalty were quick to follow. :lol:

  • Comment 65, posted at 12.12.14 16:39:13 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 65) :Old Shifty Eyes Mapoe sold the Sharks the biggest dummy imaginable, remember he got some serious medical treatment and rehab as well.

  • Comment 66, posted at 12.12.14 17:01:14 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @coolfusion (Comment 63) :

    so of Ludik , Mosrerd and Alberts … how loyal were they ? expect now for Alberts , the rest have left you guys already …

    @Dancing Bear (Comment 65) : dude … it makes me laugh . But all banter in good fun .

  • Comment 67, posted at 12.12.14 21:19:29 by Zibbie Reply
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  • I find it interesting (and comic) that Lionel Mapoe gets blamed because the Sharks were unable to break him contract with the Cheetahs :lol:

  • Comment 68, posted at 13.12.14 08:04:44 by Baylion Reply

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  • @Baylion (Comment 68) : That’s a good example of where Straueli’s poaching skills failed miserably….

    For all the good players Strools managed to get the Sharks, he sure had the ability to leave a long trail of embarrassing contract disputes, and made the Sharks a rather hated franchise at times.

    As Big Fish says, I also feel the Sharks are building a better brand without him.

    @robdylan (Comment 20) : Any further word on the Perez experiment? And did we not trial Waylon Murray too?

  • Comment 69, posted at 13.12.14 08:30:51 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • @Zibbie (Comment 55) : Let’s hope your teams’ coach values the binding nature of his contract more than this young man does. ;-)

  • Comment 70, posted at 13.12.14 08:38:41 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • @FireTheLooser (Comment 70) :

    yea. otherwise we will just poach a coach . hey that rimes !

  • Comment 71, posted at 13.12.14 09:07:50 by Zibbie Reply
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  • Its actually pretty simple… JHB has a better university for studies (not too mention Varsity Cup opportunities). Union is on the up under very good, established & stable coaching structures. They obviously offer a better monetary deal… I would advise my son to make the same move…

  • Comment 72, posted at 13.12.14 10:20:04 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 72) : If University came into the equation, I’d advise my son to pick between the bulls and stormers….

  • Comment 73, posted at 13.12.14 10:38:45 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • @FireTheLooser (Comment 73) : They did not offer him a deal

  • Comment 74, posted at 13.12.14 11:00:03 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 74) : Bulls didn’t offer a junior player a deal? :shock:

    What went wrong there?

  • Comment 75, posted at 13.12.14 11:06:34 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • @FireTheLooser (Comment 75) : Must have run out of money

  • Comment 76, posted at 13.12.14 11:18:25 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morne Pity the varsity of quality and the one that plays goodish rugby are two different institutions.

  • Comment 77, posted at 13.12.14 12:34:41 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 76) : Contract paper must be very expensive….they should try the recycled stuff

  • Comment 78, posted at 13.12.14 14:35:19 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • Kid is a super talented though. The Lions have done well to secure him

  • Comment 79, posted at 13.12.14 14:55:58 by Ludz Reply

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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 77) : UJ? They did pretty well

  • Comment 80, posted at 13.12.14 15:08:39 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 80) :

    sadly finished 7th this year . Hoping for a much improved performance next year

  • Comment 81, posted at 13.12.14 15:19:13 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 77) :
    Ikeys for life!

  • Comment 82, posted at 13.12.14 16:28:32 by Big Fish Reply
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  • Can anyone confirm the new sponsor for Lions, I heard big investment from Fly Emirates ?? Is this confirmed ?

  • Comment 83, posted at 13.12.14 17:32:07 by CrazySharkFan Reply

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  • @CrazySharkFan (Comment 83) : yep, confirmed

  • Comment 84, posted at 13.12.14 17:45:38 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • Now only Cheetahs need a big cash influx and sa rugby would be balanced again.. If money is spent correctly

  • Comment 85, posted at 13.12.14 18:06:52 by CrazySharkFan Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 72) : I would advise my child to honour their contract! !!!! They were happy to signed the contract with the Sharks knowing there is no Varsity cup rugby or “big” university in KZN!!!! This whole move to the Lions is nother more than MONEY!!!!!!

  • Comment 86, posted at 13.12.14 20:34:09 by JD Reply
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  • @Ludz (Comment 79) : just hope for there sake that the Bulls does not decide to offer him more money then he will sign with them as well and leave the Lions hanging! !!!!

  • Comment 87, posted at 13.12.14 20:36:37 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 87) :

    we are happy to take our chances .. thanx :p just like you guys did with all the players you poached :P

  • Comment 88, posted at 13.12.14 22:55:18 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 88) : I don’t like the so called poaching of players. If you signed a contract you must honour it!!!!!! I never liked the whole Mapoe thing, Sharks really stuffed up and I will never condone such behaviour not even from my beloved Sharks.

  • Comment 89, posted at 13.12.14 23:30:00 by JD Reply
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  • I asked this question when Mapoe was training with the Sharks while contracted with the Cheetahs, and I also asked it when several Sharks players buggered off to Europe while still contracted to the Sharks, and I will ask it again now. If a player can unilaterally terminate a contract and bugger off elsewhere at any time of their choosing, then what is the point of any team/club/union signing a contract with any player? Does this force the team/club/union to pay all compensation up front so the player is obligated to honour his end of the contract? This is honestly ridiculous, and is never seen in any of the American professional sports. Players do not just walk out on contracts, they are not allowed to sign a contract with another team if they are already under contract, they are not even allowed to talk to other teams until a certain time period before the termination of their contract. Each of the professional sports leagues in America has hard and fast rules regarding contracting of players and movement of players between franchises. It certainly makes SA Rugby look like a very bad and not funny joke, or just call it anarchy if you wish. For SARU not to get involved is madness, they should set up hard and fast rules all unions have to abide by, like no negotiations while under contract, etc. Can someone tell me what it meant that the Sharks signed him a year ago? Apparently that contract meant nothing, is that the way contracting law works in SA? I really would like to hear any thoughts anyone may have, especially Morne.

  • Comment 90, posted at 14.12.14 04:10:54 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • If the contract contained a “better offer” exit clause, then there was no breach and no integrity issue. Clearly most of these contracts have the clause. Else, teams would have challenged and won more often.

    People seem to misunderstand how the contract works. It’s a one-way street. The player gets a guaranteed income, the team does not get a guaranteed player.

    The American sports leagues are all exploiting monopoly positions.

  • Comment 91, posted at 14.12.14 05:56:55 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 90) :

    The meaning of the contract was that the Sharks would have paid him certain monies in exchange for a certain period of services. It never guaranteed the services.

  • Comment 92, posted at 14.12.14 06:05:52 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @Big Fish (Comment 82) : Now that’s the whole package deal.

  • Comment 93, posted at 14.12.14 08:10:34 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • All the high morales and smoke blowing ,eish,its simply this,cell c and growthpoint vs EMIRATES and HUAWEI,game over for Sharks,welcome to the EMIRATES stadium Joburg SA,eish

  • Comment 94, posted at 14.12.14 08:43:55 by benji Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 86) : Does anyone know the details of this contract? Terms, duration, exit clauses?

  • Comment 95, posted at 14.12.14 08:46:31 by Morné Reply
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  • Well done Lions ,how the hell you did that move but well done,not one but two heavyweght international sponsors on long term deals ,eish,well done,now you can buy any player anywhere anytime,while Sharks to great fanfare can only afford el cheapo has beens,eish

  • Comment 96, posted at 14.12.14 08:48:49 by benji Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 90) : That is why we have player unions.

  • Comment 97, posted at 14.12.14 10:43:09 by Morné Reply
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  • @benji (Comment 96) : sounds like you’d rather be supporting the Lions. We won’t stop you.

  • Comment 98, posted at 14.12.14 10:48:39 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 98) :
    :lol:

    A dead cert if they can lure Zeilinga away.

  • Comment 99, posted at 14.12.14 13:46:03 by Big Fish Reply
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  • @benji (Comment 96) :

    dont think the Lions will be buying left , right and center (have enough of those anyways). Seems we will be focusing more on giving young guys opportunities.

    so dont worry to much .

  • Comment 100, posted at 14.12.14 15:24:12 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Big Fish (Comment 99) : While on the topic of young 10s, Swiel has started a few games for Harlequins. From what I’ve read, seems that his kicking is still not the most reliable, and still blows hot and cold overall. Hope some more match time helps him settle down, They recognize his potential, but he needs to make the step up. Maybe the GG/Bv influence can help.

  • Comment 101, posted at 14.12.14 16:27:08 by Here be dragons Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 97) : They have very strong player unions in the American professional sports, but that does not prevent the governing body from establishing hard and fast rules regarding contracting and player movement. Sorry boet, but the player union is not the answer to my questions.

  • Comment 102, posted at 14.12.14 16:41:08 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 95) : no but can’t see to many things changed in KZN so only more money could make him change his mind!!!!

  • Comment 103, posted at 14.12.14 17:16:11 by JD Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 102) : must agree with you what’s the use of contracting players if they can do what they want! !!!! Whole contracting system in SA rugby is a bad joke!!!!!!

  • Comment 104, posted at 14.12.14 17:20:16 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 104) : Now I understand it is rather difficult for a SA Union to hold a player to a contract if they choose to bugger off overseas. In addition there is little if anything SARU can do in these cases (other than only picking SA based players for the Boks). However, with regard to player movement between SA Unions, SARU absolutely can establish rules and enforce them. SANZAR also has the power to control player movement and contracting of SR players. They choose not to do so. Since now SARU allows the selection of overseas players for the Boks, it has made this part of SA Rugby a complete joke, worse even than NZ and Aus. There has to be balance between the rights of the players and the Unions, one sided contracting, either way, just does not make any sense.

  • Comment 105, posted at 14.12.14 17:31:50 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • Tangentially, professional Unions must answer to the shareholders, the investors. Investors will not be happy offering large sums of money in a contract that heavily favours the player, whom may leave anytime they please. In a more balanced scenario, where the investors feel the player will be their asset for the full length of the contract, and won’t just leave for greener pastures, the investors may be far more willing to offer much larger salaries. This would significantly benefit the players, therefore, in my opinion, the players are ultimately hurting themselves by insisting on very one sided contracts favoring the players in all respects. Big picture. Balance is good for everyone, supporters will feel better about their own team as players will be there long term and will come to more matches, so Unions benefit, and the players benefit.

  • Comment 106, posted at 14.12.14 17:38:14 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 105) :

    man … where were you when the Lions were loosing all our players ?

  • Comment 107, posted at 14.12.14 20:29:56 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 105) : contracts does not have to be one sided but must be legally binding to both parties. If you signed a contract you should honour it or pay the financial penalties.

  • Comment 108, posted at 14.12.14 20:45:15 by JD Reply
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  • historically the sharks have opted not to enforce contracts. havi g watched the 7s rugby i think we should return the complement and poach qwagga smith. that boys workrate is phenomol

  • Comment 109, posted at 14.12.14 22:40:53 by byron Reply

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  • @byron (Comment 109) : ja he has been good and don’t forget about Snyman as II’m sure he playes 13 and wing. Couple of sessions with Paul Treu will also be welcome! !!!

  • Comment 110, posted at 14.12.14 22:44:30 by JD Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 107) : To be honest, right here asking the same questions.

  • Comment 111, posted at 15.12.14 02:43:38 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 110) : Paul True…the now former Kenyan 7′s coach?

    You probably mean Neil Powell

  • Comment 112, posted at 15.12.14 05:20:56 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • @byron (Comment 109) :

    Kwagga is contracted to the 7′s team for the next 2 season .

  • Comment 113, posted at 15.12.14 07:47:22 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @FireTheLooser (Comment 112) : no was talking of Paul. Don’t judge him on his year with Kenya he’s a better coach than that. He will be a good attacking coach to get the players to run into space and not into people.

  • Comment 114, posted at 15.12.14 08:10:36 by JD Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 113) : think with the Olympic carrot hanging in front of these guys you will struggle to get them away from the 7′s team.

  • Comment 115, posted at 15.12.14 08:12:49 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 115) :

    jip . he will only be available for the Lions once 7′s have finished . Should miss most of the SR campaign . Wont be such a great poach for you guys

  • Comment 116, posted at 15.12.14 08:16:45 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 114) : Paul was the inverse of HM, he only ever selected very small very fast players…they always ended up being bullied by the Fijian man-mountains.

    I used to rate Paul, but you’re only as good as your last gig and he also lost significant ground during his final period as Blitzbok coach.

  • Comment 117, posted at 15.12.14 08:22:25 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • I don’t there’s a problem with the standard player contracts – the Mapoe saga proved that – but it’s the trend nowadays to add supplementary and “escape” clauses to player contracts and that’s where the problems come in

  • Comment 118, posted at 15.12.14 10:06:59 by Baylion Reply

    BaylionSuper Rugby player
     
  • Wait a minute… The Sharks are complaining about the Lions poaching ONE player from them, when it’s become almost an annual jokefest the way the Sharks poach from them? Bwahahahahahahah!

    Pot, Kettle and Black comes to mind…

  • Comment 119, posted at 15.12.14 11:25:02 by Dewald Nel Reply

    Dewald NelUnder 21 player
     
  • @Dewald Nel (Comment 119) : Clearly your humour is limited to the highveld.

  • Comment 120, posted at 15.12.14 11:43:45 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 120) :

    no , his sense of humor got poached by a coastal person . The case is before a court of arbitration but they dont find anything funny so yea …

  • Comment 121, posted at 15.12.14 11:51:32 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 120) :

    What humour? This is a serious subject, and if poaching is only OK if the Sharks are allowed to do it, then we have a big problem.

    Lions did nothing wrong, player seems like a douche but technically did nothing wrong.

    Move on, why don’t ya.

  • Comment 122, posted at 15.12.14 12:01:14 by Dewald Nel Reply

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  • This is now officially boring! !!!!! Blah blah blah Sharks did this and Sharks did that blah blah blah pot and kettle this and pot and kettle that…….. Black and White nothing else matters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Comment 123, posted at 15.12.14 12:08:40 by JD Reply
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  • @Dewald Nel (Comment 122) : Ahem err, you are the one mentioning the jokefest – that was my reference to humour – you clearly did not get it, :oops: so yeah time to move on……slowly.

  • Comment 124, posted at 15.12.14 12:51:44 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 123) : Agree, thats why we need a bit of banter, especially after Dewald arrived here a week after the first Lion, but with the same pitch.

  • Comment 125, posted at 15.12.14 12:54:02 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 121) : :lol:

  • Comment 126, posted at 15.12.14 12:55:35 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • So let me get this straight…Lions supporters are still complaining about the poaching of Ludik, Alberts and Mostert…yet now that the Lions have done the exact same thing, it is no problem at all.

    Seems Lions supporters have more in common with our so-called Hypocrisy than they’d be willing to admit. :roll:

  • Comment 127, posted at 15.12.14 13:13:14 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • @FireTheLooser (Comment 127) : 100% correct!!!!!!! Die sopkoppe besef dit nog net nie!!!!

  • Comment 128, posted at 15.12.14 13:27:13 by JD Reply
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  • @FireTheLooser (Comment 127) : @JD (Comment 128) :

    yessss . but what fun is it if we cant banter you guys a bit ..

  • Comment 129, posted at 15.12.14 13:38:59 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 129) : ja boet………… don’t mind the banter it’s the trolling that got on my nerves!!

  • Comment 130, posted at 15.12.14 13:43:29 by JD Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 129) : Not everybody understands the Sharksworld family as well as you do….the foreigners should learn to blend a little before partaking in such blatant trolling.

    But we understand, most Lions supporters are very new to pre-season hype, so they’re obviously going through a teething phase :twisted:

    Edit: Hormonal Teenage phase might be a more apt description :twisted:

  • Comment 131, posted at 15.12.14 13:51:25 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • 1. I’m not saying either union is wrong. I’m saying, if you can dish it out, you must be able to take it in equal measures. It’s totally hypocritical to be fine with it when the Sharks do it, yet get on your high horses and shout “Ugly, Ugly, Ugly” when you’re on the receiving end.

    2. I have no idea where you got the idea that I’m a Lions supporter. I am, however, allowed to post my neutral point of view, whether you agree with it or not. ;)

    Admin: post edited

  • Comment 132, posted at 15.12.14 14:33:09 by Dewald Nel Reply

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  • @Dewald Nel (Comment 132) : If you knew anything about this site, you’d know the policy of “:Absolutely No Freaken Politics:” ;-)

  • Comment 133, posted at 15.12.14 14:56:15 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • @Dewald Nel (Comment 132) : leave politics out of it – and remember that you post here at my pleasure and my pleasure alone.

  • Comment 134, posted at 15.12.14 15:47:38 by robdylan Reply
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  • And now back to the previous hot political topic, contracting in South African Rugby, chaos or genius……..discuss…… :mrgreen: :twisted:

  • Comment 135, posted at 15.12.14 20:16:26 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 135) : or joke?!?!?! The way some players disregard their contracts is just sad!!!!

  • Comment 136, posted at 15.12.14 22:51:15 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 136) :

    maybe he might have had some sort of exit clause in his contract (im not sure ?) .

  • Comment 137, posted at 15.12.14 23:18:22 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 137) : I have to be honest, there is a part of me that is glad the Lions finally had one of these go their way, but I honestly did complain about this when the Lions were losing players. As I mentioned in an earlier post, a structured contracting system will benefit players, teams, and supporters. Unions will be more willing to invest in players if they will be around for a while. I have to agree with JD, the contracting system in SA Rugby is a sad joke.

  • Comment 138, posted at 16.12.14 04:29:06 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 137) : But if a SA Union is going to benefit from it, then better the Lions than any other, you guys have earned it. And Ackermann has quickly become one of the very best coaches in South Africa.

  • Comment 139, posted at 16.12.14 04:33:00 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 138) : That’s pretty much the gist of it. The silver lining here is that Smit will at least be paying his dues at a South African union.

  • Comment 140, posted at 16.12.14 09:46:59 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 138) :

    yes defiantly . Cant say its a good thing . and its a huge risk contracting any player these days . and SARU does not really care . Personally i would say dont blame the player . blame the game . i think a central contracting system would benefit the whole country . but we dont have it so you need to wrok what you got . sadly

  • Comment 141, posted at 16.12.14 10:41:00 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 105) : There are rules. But you have to remember the player’s primary contract is held by the union, not SARU. Terms contained therein is because of what the union and the player/agent agreed upon.

    Further, SARPA ensures terms are legit and contract conditions are met. SARU only ensures everyone plays by the rules set out by SARPA, unions, players and agents.

    You cannot hold the Health Services Proffesionals Council liable for how hospitals and medical practices contract doctors. Same here.

  • Comment 142, posted at 16.12.14 13:56:48 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 142) : must agree the only thing SA Rugby can do is put a cap on the maximum salary of juniors.

  • Comment 143, posted at 16.12.14 14:45:14 by JD Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 142) : So the player would then have had some sort of escape clause in the contract he signed with the Sharks ?

  • Comment 144, posted at 16.12.14 14:47:48 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 142) : I disagree Morne, SARU can set rules, they are the governing body over all the unions. Sorry just can not agree with you on this one. I’m afraid the Health Services analogy just does not hold water. The local Unions exist at the discretion of SARU. I can not start my own Union and just demand entrance into CC and SR, SARU has to approve my entry, and that entry can come with stipulations as to how the contracts are handled. It can be done, SARU chooses not to and as a result, contracting in SA is a sad joke.

  • Comment 145, posted at 16.12.14 16:17:23 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 145) :

    ” I can not start my own Union and just demand entrance into CC and SR…”

    Well … not unless your name is Cheeky Watson Of course

  • Comment 146, posted at 16.12.14 16:40:11 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 146) : I promise you I am not Cheeky Watson…….cheeky maybe. :mrgreen: :twisted:

  • Comment 147, posted at 16.12.14 19:26:40 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 145) :

    You are advocating enforced labor, which is a form of slavery.

    Even the American Leagues cannot force a player to play for them. What they do is an agreement between the teams, not to hire any player under contract with another. A player may still choose to retire anytime or go play in Canada (see Ricky Williams). All the team can do is try to claw back the upfront payments they made to him.

    If the SA Unions made similar agreements, players will bugger of over seas in even larger numbers.

    The Sharks made no payments to the player and they cannot force him to play for them so they really lost nothing. Move on.

  • Comment 148, posted at 17.12.14 04:09:54 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 145) : Like I said there are rules. SARU does not allow any player to run out for a team if the player was not released by the union losing him. In other words a form is signed by the union releasing him. A union may refuse signing these forms if there is a dispute.

    But there can only be a dispute if there was a contract.

    SARU steps in with disputes. I dont think more is necessary really…

  • Comment 149, posted at 17.12.14 07:41:17 by Morné Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 148) : sorry oet but I must disagree with you. A contract is binding and neither party can do what they want, they must abide with the stipulation of the contract and the Sharks lost the chance to contract another promising player.

  • Comment 150, posted at 17.12.14 16:09:47 by JD Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 149) : Thanks for taking the time to respond Morne, I appreciate that and I have a great deal of respect for your opinion. I understand what you are saying about SARU not allowing a player to run out for a team if they are still committed to another team, that is the way it should be. Just one thought, in the American professional leagues a player can not even negotiate with another team while committed under contract, and they certainly can not train with another team while under contract. Perhaps doing more in this area will help, maybe not necessary, but should help no?

  • Comment 151, posted at 17.12.14 17:38:32 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 148) : Please read all my posts, I specifically mentioned in one of them that there is little that can be done when a player chooses to bugger off overseas, or in the American leagues decides to go play for a rival league (for example when the USFL was actually competing with the NFL to sign big name players like Herschel Walker). I am in no way advocating forced labour, I am simply advocating that both parties honour the terms of the contract they both agreed to. The contract is no less binding on the player than it is on the Union.

  • Comment 152, posted at 17.12.14 17:42:32 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 152) :

    I did and I get your point. You want an orderly transfer system.

    I see this in a wider context. I’m loath to allow entities to tie down individuals with contracts. Whether it’s an employment contract, a mortgage contract or a cable contract, the individual must have a right to walk away.

    Individuals face expiration, entities don’t. I prefer the system to favor the player, because being stuck in dud contract is much more costly for a player, than being stuck with dud player is for a team.

    Solomon Linda also signed a contract, but what happened under the terms of that contract was neither right nor good.

  • Comment 153, posted at 18.12.14 04:12:13 by fyndraai Reply
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  • So my point is that the contract is and should be less binding on the player than it is on the team. I’m kind of a leftist in that regard.

  • Comment 154, posted at 18.12.14 04:35:06 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 154) : Is that you Jerry Maguire?

  • Comment 155, posted at 18.12.14 14:49:52 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 155) :

    “Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains. Those who think themselves the masters of others are indeed greater slaves than they.”

    — Jean-Jacques Rousseau,

  • Comment 156, posted at 19.12.14 02:29:41 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 153) : @fyndraai (Comment 154) : A contracting system in a closed environment like a professional sports league that favours one party over another is not sustainable. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, a fair system, fair to both parties will ultimately give the Union more confidence to invest large sums of money in player contracting and the players will ultimately benefit. My opinion, big picture as you say, the players are ultimately hurting themselves financially, individual players may now benefit, but overall less money will be invested in contracting players. So I actually think I hold the populist viewpoint ;-)

  • Comment 157, posted at 19.12.14 05:44:47 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 157) :

    You hold the populist viewpoint indeed. Fans mostly care about the team, players are mere cogs in the machine. ;)

    I rather like to imagine that I’m holding the just viewpoint.

  • Comment 158, posted at 19.12.14 16:05:07 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 158) : If players earning less money is just, then yes, you hold the just viewpoint. ;-) :mrgreen: :twisted:

  • Comment 159, posted at 19.12.14 19:43:09 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 159) :

    If it’s as you say, then I’ll have no objections.

    But my reading of economics and history is that in contracts, the party with most resources at the time of signing has a tremendous and unfair advantage. That is the reason why consumer and employment laws in liberal democracies tend to favor the individual over the corporation.

    If in SA rugby, the Unions act in concert to enforce their contracts, they will do so in a way to further their interest in keeping player salaries down. The only way for higher salaries will be through union action by a strong player’s union. Thus higher salaries, not because of, but rather in spite of your system.

  • Comment 160, posted at 21.12.14 23:07:30 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 160) : Thank you for the intelligent, reasoned debate. I honestly wish we could be debating in person because I’m afraid my position has not been made clear through my posts. I completely agree with your point regarding the party with the most resources dominating the contract exchange, with one caveat, this is only true in an unregulated (or unfairly regulated) contract system. When I said earlier that SARU should set rules regarding contracting, I did not just mean rules to ensure that players remain for the length of the contract. I advocate that SARU, working with the players union, establish contracting rules/regulations that ensure that the rights of the players are completely protected, and the single right of the Unions to have a player play for the duration of the contract to be protected as well. When I say rights of the players, I mean from a minimum salary for any player at each level, benefits (health/retirement), restrictions on Unions committing players to outside activities, guarantee of pay for the length of the contract even if injured, etc. I could go on there are many, but once baseline contracts are established with rights of both parties fully protected, I strongly believe the investor will ultimately have high confidence to invest in player contracting, ultimately benefiting players across the spectrum. In no way would I advocate that Unions have a free go with contracting, with no restrictions to protect the players, that is just a recipe for disaster.

    I hope this clarifies my position somewhat. Once again, thanks for the debate, it is very enjoyable. :-) A very merry Xmas and happy new year to you and yours.

  • Comment 161, posted at 22.12.14 06:52:49 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearAssistant coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 161) :

    Thanks. And the same to you and yours.

  • Comment 162, posted at 22.12.14 17:01:49 by fyndraai Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    fyndraaiTeam captain
     
  • @Big Fish (Comment 14) : Ha ha, so agree! Pretty rich for some guys to be all indignant, when the Sharks have not always been squeaky clean in this particular facet.
    Alberts, and Mapoe come to mind!

  • Comment 163, posted at 24.12.14 07:38:45 by KingCheetah Reply

    KingCheetahTeam captain
     

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