pierre_mackie

A Foreign Affair


Written by Pierre McLeod (pierre_mackie)

Posted in :Original Content, Springboks, Super Rugby on 27 Jan 2015 at 10:15
Tagged with : , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

After reading an article about rugby professionals leaving their country of birth to play for an adopted country, whether through residency or ancestral lineage, and how it’s diluting the game, I decided to put down some of my own thoughts.

Rugby has become a global brand and a choice of profession for a lot of players worldwide, whether the driving force is to represent your country or the financial gain.

There has always been a steady departure of South Africans leaving our shores to play overseas, but that number has increased over the last few seasons with European and Japanese clubs contracting not only our players but offering the world’s best contracts they can simply not decline.

Personally, I don’t have an issue with players leaving at the end of their careers to make a quick Pound, Euro or Yen before retirement, but those players leaving are becoming ever younger and younger. For many, it is because of lucrative contracts, but for some it is for an opportunity to develop their skill and to play a 70 – 80 minute game as supposed to sitting on the bench for 70 – 80 minutes, and in doing so they get the opportunity to represent their adopted nations at the highest level.

Players that were mentioned were the likes of Bernard Le Roux, Rory Kockott, Scott Spedding and Antonie Claassen.

Le Roux left the Boland Cavaliers to join Racing Metro in 2009, and has made 11 appearences for France since his debut in 2012.

Rory Kockott and Scott Spedding, who both made their debuts for France during the Autumn Internationals, also left South African unions for better opportunities, none of which would have played for the Springboks at the time of their departures.

Kockott, who was never in contention for a Springbok jersey in 2011, left the Lions to join French club Castress Olympique, where he has since become a valuable member of their squad, with 104 caps and 880 points and a dozen man-of-the-match awards. He has since made 3 appearances for France and scored 8 points.

Spedding left the Sharks in 2008 when he joined Brive. In 2012 he joined Bayonne, where he also made his international debut in 2014 and has since played 3 tests.

Antonie Claassen, son of former Springbok captain Wynand Claassen, left the Bulls in 2007 to join CA Brive where he made 128 appearances and scored 55 points. In 2012 he joined fellow countryman Kockott at Castress where he made 41 appearances and scored 25 points. In 2014 he made the move to Racing Metro. Claassen made his international debut in 2013.

Another South African-born French International, Pieter de Villiers, left South Africa to play at Stade Francais in 1994 until retirement in 2008. He made his French debut in 1999 and played 68 test and scored 10 points. De Villiers represented France in two World Cups, a Six Nations and earned a Top 14 medal to go with numerous Brennus Shields.

Other successful players that left at a young age to try and compete at the highest level are the likes of Brad Barritt and Michael Catt.

Catt left Eastern Province in the early 90′s to play for Bath, and later moved to London Irish where he retired in 2010. Catt played 75 tests for England and scored 142 points, he also represented the British and Irish Lions. He won a World Cup with England in 2003, he also became the oldest player, at the age of 36, to ever play in a final when they lost to South Africa in the 2007 World Cup Final.

Former Sharks player, Brad Barritt also comes to mind. After leaving the Sharks at a young age where he played in a Super Rugby Final in 2007 and won the Currie Cup in 2008, he joined Saracens. He made his debut for the England Saxons in 2009 and his international debut in 2012, he was also included in the 2013 British and Irish Lions tour to Australia.

There are also the hopefuls like, CJ Stander who plays at Munster and is eligible to play for Ireland if selected, Josh Strauss who joined Scottish club Glasgow in 2012 will also be eligible to play for Scotland in September, Quin Roux, WP Nel and Danie Poolman.

Then there is that group of players that develop their game overseas, come back and play some of their best rugby.

Former Springbok captain, Bob Skinstad left in 2004 to play a few seasons at Newport Gwent Dragons and Richmond RFC. He returned in 2007 and joined the Sharks for the Super Rugby and later that year won a World Cup medal with the Springboks.

Percy Montgomery is another player that left South Africa half way through his career to spend some time in Europe before returning to South Africa and winning a World Cup medal in 2007.

Stefan Terblanche, former Springbok and Sharks player, returned to South Africa after a stint in Europe only to return and play some of his best rugby in a Sharks jersey. Terblanche had a sweet farewell, at the matured age of 35, when he captained the Sharks and claiming the Currie Cup in the 2010 final against Western Province at Kings Park.

Bottom line, these players are all professionals some of whom have made a successful career in a foreign land, if we can’t recognise or nurture their talent don’t stop them from going and doing what they do best.



103 Comments

  • Cry me a river, Jurie Roux. Why not look at your own house rather and try to fix the myriad, myriad issues that compel players to seek greener pastures? Or if that’s too hard, rather just accept that rugby, like all businesses, is governed by the laws of supply and demand.

  • Comment 1, posted at 27.01.15 10:21:45 by robdylan Reply
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  • No different from any other profession where there are hoards of south Africans of similar age abroad.

  • Comment 2, posted at 27.01.15 10:24:53 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • At 1 stage I really thought Brad and Waylon were gona be the next centres for SA.

  • Comment 3, posted at 27.01.15 10:30:35 by Shadow Reply

     
  • @robdylan (Comment 1) :

    and if he sticks to his policy of picking over seas based players for the boks the players will keep on leaving . because there is nothing to keep them here

  • Comment 4, posted at 27.01.15 10:30:50 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 1) : Indeed. I could’ve written a paragraph here, but the article and your comment are fair and right – can’t stop players if there is indeed a need for them and a bigger financial reward – playing for your adopted country is a bonus, the bottom line is that these guys want to play rugby… A big talking point is how the local players overseas are being benched for overseas stars – the shoe on the other foot. But it is a professional era, and the best player available plays the game.

  • Comment 5, posted at 27.01.15 10:31:37 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • @Richard Southey (Comment 5) :

    well one would only have to compare french and SA rugby to that of the all blacks to make a conclusion of what the right way is to go me thinks

  • Comment 6, posted at 27.01.15 10:36:04 by Zibbie Reply
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  • I think the point being made is we need to somehow keep our best players here. Yes I doubt those players who did leave would have actually played for the Boks, however the provinces would have benefited greatly by having them available to the local market. If anything, I think we need to ditch the Super Rugby and merge with European market, we will have more cash flow, and also there would be no traveling or viewing times issues. We will then most likely see more Europeen players join SA, and visa verse. This in itself would make things pretty unique.

  • Comment 7, posted at 27.01.15 10:38:28 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 6) : Yep, it would be ideal to have local talent retained, with a non-negotiable overseas policy, that is where NZRU have their contracting on-point, and also a very strong economy – but yes, there needs to be incentive to stay and play for your province. NZRU light years ahead of SARU.

  • Comment 8, posted at 27.01.15 10:43:30 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • ja there’s lots more just think of Strauss (Ireland) Rathbone (OZ) as well as a lot of cricket players. If they don’t get “work” in SA why can’t they go and work abroad. It’s the same as a youngster that goes to USA or UK to work after school.

  • Comment 9, posted at 27.01.15 10:45:26 by JD Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 6) : yes the right way is to “steal” all the youngsters from Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, etc before they can play for their country of birth and then make as if they’re from your country!!!!!!!

  • Comment 10, posted at 27.01.15 10:49:05 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 10) : That’s a tired debunked myth.

  • Comment 11, posted at 27.01.15 10:50:57 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 10) : That too, is a perhaps contentious point, but the numbers aren’t great, but with regards to their player management, welfare, retention and contracting, they are on a different playing field – in all fairness, I too would choose a NZRU team ahead of a Pacific Island team fraught with maladministration. Imagine Beast playing for Zim…

  • Comment 12, posted at 27.01.15 10:53:29 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • It’s a simple numbers game. SA has the second most active rugby players in the world. It’s inevitable many will leave because there simply aren’t enough spots. Alternative is a mediocre player remains in SA and denies a youngster a spot. NZ have a similar sized professional comp with a Michel smaller pool of players.

  • Comment 13, posted at 27.01.15 10:57:20 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 11) : @Richard Southey (Comment 12) : it’s not only about the guys playing in the national team it’s about the guys playing in their provincial teams but don’t get me wrong it’s a free world and you can go and “work” were ever is the best for you!!!!! I would also rather take a chance of playing for NZ than for Fiji, Tonga, Zim etc. so don’t blame players for leaving to go and play/work for more money.

  • Comment 14, posted at 27.01.15 10:58:16 by JD Reply
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  • @Richard Southey (Comment 8) :

    I strongly believe that a central contracting system will help with this .

    having all you top players at a few unions does not help our cause . A team like the kings would greatly benefit from having players like Matfield and Bismarc Du Plessis in the team . it will cause top players to see the Kings as an option . I dont think the real top players see the kings (or even the cheetahs and lions) as an option at the moment . Have more successful teams and we will have more successful players .

  • Comment 15, posted at 27.01.15 10:59:32 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 10) :

    like we did with beast ?

  • Comment 16, posted at 27.01.15 11:01:21 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Richard Southey (Comment 8) : yes that’s for sure but then I do think a lot of national Unions are light years ahead of SARU!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Comment 17, posted at 27.01.15 11:03:36 by JD Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 15) : With all the players in SA, you have 14 provincial teams, only 8 that plays “top league” and only 5 worth mentioning. The rest of the smaller unions will struggle to compete with some of our clubs. We need more opportunities to keep the players here, when SR came into effect they cut down on CC which gave equal opportunity for alot of local players, but now players are not even interested in CC anymore, they dont want to play 1st Div. Believe we past the stage of rugby its all about the money and whoever pays the most will draw the best

  • Comment 18, posted at 27.01.15 11:16:56 by pierre_mackie Reply
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  • @pierre_mackie (Comment 18) : yes exactly . Make the Kings good enough to be worth mentioning . but they need players worth mentioning . top unions holding on to the top players will cause this to never happen .

  • Comment 19, posted at 27.01.15 11:23:04 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 16) : ja sort of…………….. :twisted:

  • Comment 20, posted at 27.01.15 11:23:33 by JD Reply
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  • @pierre_mackie (Comment 18) : 100% correct but then again if you could do the same work for more money would you stay in your current job?

  • Comment 21, posted at 27.01.15 11:28:04 by JD Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 19) : Why should someone else make them good enough? Kings have gotten enough freebies thus far.

  • Comment 22, posted at 27.01.15 11:31:49 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 19) : getting the Kings good enough is a long process and not a quick fix as some seems to think. buying 5-10 top players costs a lot of money and will not help all that much if your backup players are weak. Players needs to be developed to assist the “big name” players and that takes time.

  • Comment 23, posted at 27.01.15 11:32:05 by JD Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 22) : i would agree . but im hoping the Lions will benefit as well in the process :twisted:

    @JD (Comment 23) :

    look . with the correct distribution , players like Julian Redelinghuys becomes Boks . If he stayed with the sharks he would probably not even have made the super rugby starting team constantly , never mind the bok side . So now this creates more depth for the Boks . Imagine if the kings could do the same and develop players . (Interestingly , i have noted that Julian Redelinghuys played his junior rugby for the Lions before moving to the sharks )

  • Comment 24, posted at 27.01.15 11:43:12 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 24) : problem is some coaches and teams try to sign 3 top players in every possition. Don’t get me wrong, depth is needed and I don’t blame a coach or a union for trying to have depth, but i do believe some take it to far and it seems as if they would just sign a player so that another team can’t have him and with that I have a problem.

  • Comment 25, posted at 27.01.15 11:53:22 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 23) : Agreed. Same concept whereby the baabaas are loaded with talented players but seldom win. Rugby sides develop over sever seasons.

  • Comment 26, posted at 27.01.15 11:57:29 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 24) : Not true Zibbie, Julian was on a very long term injury, and was due to start his come back and got the offer from the Lions, you cannot play if you are injured.

    He is and was however always on the up as a player and would have made it, just as he is at the Lions, he is a very good player and good luck to him.

  • Comment 27, posted at 27.01.15 11:58:34 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 26) : ja I just wish the Sharks will be developed quickly as they’ve been in the developing process for a while now!!!!!!!!! Currently they are delivering slower than the Post Office!!!!!!!!! Time to deliver boys!!!!!!!!!

  • Comment 28, posted at 27.01.15 12:02:06 by JD Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 24) : no, that’s not true. Julian played his SCHOOL rugby for the Lions. He represented the Sharks at u19, u21, Vodacom Cup and Currie Cup level and was selected for Junior Boks while a Sharks player.

  • Comment 29, posted at 27.01.15 12:05:49 by robdylan Reply
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  • @sharks_lover (Comment 27) : @Zibbie (Comment 24) : Julien did not get a lot of chances as a youngtser mainly as the Sharks had senior Bok players ahead of him (Jannie, Wian & Adriaanse). For him the move to Lions was a good one and I’m glad he’s doing well there.

  • Comment 30, posted at 27.01.15 12:13:43 by JD Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 29) : maybe he was talking about his school days playing for the Lions.

  • Comment 31, posted at 27.01.15 12:14:53 by JD Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 24) : @robdylan (Comment 29) :

    HE’s a born and bred Natalian by Rob’s definition Zibby. Come on bud, toe the party line!

  • Comment 32, posted at 27.01.15 12:19:02 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 32) : hahaha funny boet funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

  • Comment 33, posted at 27.01.15 12:20:10 by JD Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 29) :

    ok sorry . i read youth rugby and didnt do the maths . 2005 – 2007 . that would make it high school . thank you for the correction

  • Comment 34, posted at 27.01.15 12:29:19 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 32) :

    :lol: :lol:

  • Comment 35, posted at 27.01.15 12:30:13 by Zibbie Reply
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  • I think we have to bare in mind that rugby is no longer just a sport but rather a professional occupation. So with that in mind a brief story to illustrate…Joe Soap goes to a kzn primary and high school, then goes off to study medicine at UCT, he qualifies, does his 1 year community service and then gets a very lucrative offer in Oz…so off he goes to pursue what he believes is in the best interests of his career having weighed up the options in SA. So my question…how is Joe different from any rugby player playing professionally? Are they both unpatriotic? or they doing the best for their careers and their families? food for thought…

  • Comment 36, posted at 27.01.15 13:05:34 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @robdylan (Comment 29) : hey Rob, any idea when our Jap imports will be arriving cause Gary an frans are out of the play-off’s

  • Comment 37, posted at 27.01.15 13:07:54 by MJ Reply

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  • It is a complex problem with no simple solution (or any for that matter).

    Make no mistake, NZ is losing a shit load of players themselves, they are in trouble and their policy will not last much longer. More players are leaving more frequently – the whole ‘fight for the black jersey’ mantra is no longer that appealing compared to a big paycheque.

    Back to South Africa, the problem is complex. Unions operate above their financial capabilities. The legacy of rugby in this country sustaining itself (during isolation) where unions could afford to build 40 to 60 000 seater stadiums (because it will get filled) are long gone.

    The cost of running a union taking all operating costs into account simply does not allow any of our unions to manage 50 000+ seater stadium when it is only filled for 3 games at most a year.

    Teams have management teams that goes up to 100 in some unions, and here I am talking on-field management teams, not the admin guys. I am also not even talking about their development structures (club and school rugby) which also takes a massive bite out of their resources financially.

    Unions have to break the cycle that that feeds itself because it is in effect destroying the unions.

    Rugby in the SH is at a tipping point and the unions that cannot adapt will disappear.

  • Comment 38, posted at 27.01.15 13:16:37 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 38) : Just a question for thought- is there a call for privitasing teams/unions much the same way British football and French rugby has gone?

  • Comment 39, posted at 27.01.15 13:33:34 by SheldonK Reply

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  • The biggest protection a country has against players leaving young is to only pick local players for international duty. Heyneke Meyer threw this out of the window completely and now we are going to see the pain of guys packing up young to leave for greener pastures.

  • Comment 40, posted at 27.01.15 13:34:12 by PTAShark Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 39) :

    Current constitution does not allow for that.

    @PTAShark (Comment 40) :

    That started before Heyneke’s tenure.

  • Comment 41, posted at 27.01.15 13:42:45 by Morné Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 15) : Yep; agreed, central contracting is definitely the way forward, then you would see a better spread of talent being managed in a constructive fashion, reporting into SARU, but with each Union a Private Company responsible only to their shareholders, the power struggle will always remain. And which Private Company would gladly relinquish their shares? None…

  • Comment 42, posted at 27.01.15 13:58:01 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 41) : That i did not know. Thanks

  • Comment 43, posted at 27.01.15 14:00:02 by SheldonK Reply

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  • Yep, SARU is run like a true bureaucracy without much dynamic leadership, but that is a dungeon of spiders I do not wish to delve. ;)

  • Comment 44, posted at 27.01.15 14:00:12 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 38) : That’s makes for stark reading, but you’re 100% correct, NH teams do well with this, but we have so many 60K + stadiums we can’t not utilize them, as for the structures and management etc. Well, yes, there is some smart learning and applications that need to take place.

  • Comment 45, posted at 27.01.15 14:03:07 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 41) : Seems to me as though the current constitution will require changing…especially judging by the grim picture you’ve just painted.

  • Comment 46, posted at 27.01.15 14:06:11 by FireTheLooser Reply

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  • @FireTheLooser (Comment 46) :

    Only the executive council, meaning the union presidents themselves, can change the constitution.

  • Comment 47, posted at 27.01.15 14:08:51 by Morné Reply
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  • @Richard Southey (Comment 42) :

    No contracting system will stop players moving. In a pro arena economics determines that.

    The benefit of a better contracting system is better management of players which believe it or not, plays a huge part in players deciding to move or stay. It is not 100% about the money, it is about preservation and getting as much out of your body as a pro-player too.

  • Comment 48, posted at 27.01.15 14:11:25 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 48) :

    To illustrate this better…

    Japan:

    16 games a season

    R10-mil

    SA:

    18 Super Rugby Games
    12 Tests
    Currie Cup

    R 4 – 6 Mil

    It is not even a comparison on paper.

    BUT

    If you offer any of our top players R6-mil and only play 18 to 22 games a year, 70% of them will stay even if offered less.

  • Comment 49, posted at 27.01.15 14:13:50 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 48) : Yep; cherry picking them for key Super Rugby games and Test matches (a Test caliber player) – and given them a planned schedule would only be beneficial, I cannot imagine physically and mentally having to get in the zone week in week out when your body takes that much damage over a 11 month season, its simply too much rugby – as you point out 30+ matches VS 16 matches – its a non-starter…

  • Comment 50, posted at 27.01.15 14:22:53 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • Some more perspective – Alliance Park – home to English PRemiership front-runners Saracens – only seats 10,000, but pack it week in week out.

    The Lions – with Ellis Park – seat 60,000, but barely get 10,000 through the door.

    Which one do you think works better from a profit and loss perspective?

  • Comment 51, posted at 27.01.15 14:44:13 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 51) : But Ellis ark is more comfy as the spectators have more room to sit so arent squashed ;)

  • Comment 52, posted at 27.01.15 14:50:29 by SheldonK Reply

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  • I think central contracting is probably better, but it wont make much of a difference now.

    It worked (slightly) for NZ over the last few years, but they have more players abroad than we do. Much more, in fact. And they have many, many coaches and backroom staff plying their trade worldwide.

    Implementing this now would simply be disruptive and wouldnt make much of a difference. For the young guys coming through now, the path has already been trodden. The expectation is now for young guys to leave at the first indication that they wont make it. Do you remember the outcry when Schalk Brits left? That doesnt happen anymore – because leaving is now the norm, not the exception.

    This wont change while the money is in Europe. Not for us, not the kiwis.

  • Comment 53, posted at 27.01.15 14:57:07 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 52) :

    Ahahaha. True that. But tempered with the fact that your car might not be there after the game!

    Allianz Park is fantastic actually. Players sit amongst the crowd, there’s a beer bus (ali hargreaves’ bus) right next to the field, great bar facilities, you can go on the pitch after the game (because its artificial). You can even take your beer onto the pitch post-game. Those guys are getting a lot of things right and goign after the family market in a big, big way. They convert the long-jump pit inot a playground for the kids.

  • Comment 54, posted at 27.01.15 14:59:44 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 54) : Yeah kinda difficult now that these 50,000 – 60,000 seater stadiums are scattered across South Africa, they were built in the heydays so one must hope that they are paid off in full already, but that said, having a 10,000 seater full beats an empty giant stadium, every game a sellout…

  • Comment 55, posted at 27.01.15 15:08:25 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • @Richard Southey (Comment 55) : Not even taking the Football stadiums into consideration… Sigh :roll:

  • Comment 56, posted at 27.01.15 15:09:39 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • @Richard Southey (Comment 55) :

    Only Newlands is wholly owned by the union. The rest have leases in place with local municipalities.

  • Comment 57, posted at 27.01.15 15:12:37 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 48) :

    look . im not saying it will stop players from leaving . im rather saying we should try and get more players of super rugby standard to counter the player drain

  • Comment 58, posted at 27.01.15 15:14:28 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 57) : Oh wow; I wasn’t aware of that, I knew for example that Kings Park had that arrangement with the Municipality hence the pressure to move to Moses Mabidha, but I was under the impression that the likes of the Lions and Co owned their stadia. Learn new things every day.

  • Comment 59, posted at 27.01.15 15:26:32 by Richard Southey Reply

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  • @Zibbie (Comment 58) :

    I am of the opinion, perhaps ignorantly, that the market in Europe and Japan will soon reach a saturation point and level out. Clubs who import players suffer greatly during the international test rugby season where IRB regulations forces them to release players for their countries. Just recently one of the Frenchies threatened to take the IRB to court over this…

    NH countries are also bemoaning the lack of local player development because of so many foreigners. Japan has strict rules in place as a great example.

    So considering economics looking at the other end of the scale, the risks are becoming bigger by the year for clubs importing internationals at a huge cost – and as mentioned above, a lot of these are owned privately which means they put a premium on profit and a good return on investment.

    I am not too concerned about the player drain from our lower levels, but we must make a concerted effort to keep the top 100 to 150 players that is part of the National plan (national teams from U18) in the country.

    It makes no sense to me to ‘look after’ the retention of all 400 professional players in SA – I would rather concentrate on the 40 odd top senior professionals (Springboks and wider Springbok squad) and the 80 odd players that comes through our SA School and SA U20 systems.

  • Comment 60, posted at 27.01.15 15:31:56 by Morné Reply
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  • @Richard Southey (Comment 59) :

    The Lions have a weird setup, Louis Luyt did some shady deals there where you have the union and EPS (totally different company that is the stadium basically) – Zibbie might know more about that. I also think Pirates soccer club is a partner?

    The Sharks has some absurd lease agreement that is in effect until 2049 or something hence the council struggling to force them to move to Moses.

    WP Rugby Union is the only actual union that owns their stadium.

  • Comment 61, posted at 27.01.15 15:34:49 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 61) : Very interesting, I feel enlightened, thanks!

  • Comment 62, posted at 27.01.15 15:37:41 by Richard Southey Reply

    RichardCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 61) :

    I remember that – was a sale-and-leaseback arrangement whereby Luyt was a shareholder or director or something in the new company. He basically sold the stadium off for no consideration to a company he controlled. There was a bit of an uprorar at the time.

    Was dodgy as f*** if memory serves.

  • Comment 63, posted at 27.01.15 15:37:54 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 61) :

    Hence theyre also the only union that can hold up their middle finger when the like of City of Cape Town try to strongarm them.

  • Comment 64, posted at 27.01.15 15:38:48 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • We have too many pro players in this country. Unions have huge squads for SR. Then there’s CC and VC players not to mention contracted juniors and whatever else. Then you have the Bulls signing every youngster they can for a nickel and a dime.

    Fully professional should be SR and CC with Bok players earning on top of that. That’s it. Age grade can be semi pro and the vodocrap cup can be scrapped with a proper (amateur) club championship running along SR.

    I’d rather pay the best 150 players int he country what they’re worth than whats happening now – where everyone gets a much smaller slice… because its simply not working.

  • Comment 65, posted at 27.01.15 15:46:22 by Dryden Reply

    Vodacom Cup player
     
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 63) :

    I read the story once, will try and dig it up… But it was damn dodgy!

    @VinChainSaw (Comment 64) :

    Exactly!

  • Comment 66, posted at 27.01.15 15:46:56 by Morné Reply
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  • @Dryden (Comment 65) :

    Its coming…

    Stay tuned.

  • Comment 67, posted at 27.01.15 15:47:38 by Morné Reply
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  • Just my 2 cents worth?
    Don’t you guys think that youngsters head overseas after they seem to be playing better rugby but always a ‘outoppie’ gets selected infront of them?As in,every Bok has a ‘sell-by’ date,for aguments sake 8 years…now when those guys start getting a bit on,you find new and stronger guys that will come into the team to start their Bok careers(eg Matfield in for Krynouw Otto,Percy in for Jouba,etc etc) Now currently we have a situation where the young guys (20-25 year olds) doesn’t get selected because certain players keeps getting selected on name although long over the hill and that could encourage younger guys leaving our shores to try and qualify for an adopted country where 9 out of 10 times big stars gets dropped when form starts to go?

  • Comment 68, posted at 27.01.15 15:49:44 by BarendL Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 63) : Good ol Louis Luyt…haha

  • Comment 69, posted at 27.01.15 15:49:49 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @BarendL (Comment 68) : I agree, however there should be a good balance to it. Rotation systems are vital, to this, however, you cannot just go and hand every Tom , dick , and Harry caps because he might be good enough, you also want to try and select your top preforming youngsters as they will be your next line of Boks coming through. You need to understand, each year every union has probably at least 25-30 u/19′s coming through. They would be the cream of the crop of that year. You just cannot have so many surplus players, what are you going to do to keep them all? next your you have another lot , and the year after.

  • Comment 70, posted at 27.01.15 16:10:03 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • I thought we would have a touring party to france announced today?? any news anyone?

  • Comment 71, posted at 27.01.15 16:10:11 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • @sharks_lover (Comment 71) : Sharks have just told me that they’re announcing tomorrow.

  • Comment 72, posted at 27.01.15 16:21:21 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 70) : I agree whole heartedly,but our current coach has also been guilty of handing out free caps,especially in his first two years,and then allowing very deserving players to move overseas(Josh Strauss,Ludik,Robert Ebersohn,Brussouw and a couple other was brilliant in a time where Britney,Zane,Wynand Olivier and Jacques ‘frogsplash’ Potgieter was preferred)
    Those crops of very talented players coming through each year dilute themselves,only the exceptional remain,those are the guys falling through the cracks lately,I would much rather have the situation where I give a cap to a extremely promising youngster (F.Steyn,Pollard etc) than giving a cap to overrated older guys who struggle to hold down a spot in their provincial/franchise teams…guys like Gurthro,Matfield,Zane,Morne Steyn(for the last 3 seasons),John Smit and even Bakkies is or was at one stage preferred on reputation rather ability and thus keeping promising youngsters/players with great form, from being selected?
    In my ideal world I would love to have a situation as in NZ that only local players be selcted for the Boks.
    @SheldonK (Comment 36) : Joe differs in the way that in his career he will make +- 400k per year…Rugby players average between 4-6mil per year(the great ones), over 10 years thats more or less an income of 40-60mil….if you cant make a living with that,then you shouldn’t be allowed to own a bank card!

  • Comment 73, posted at 27.01.15 16:28:09 by BarendL Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 51) : problem is the stadiums are build and now they must be maintained. Moving into smaller stadiums would be wonderful but will cost way to much.
    I personally feel the stadiums are empty because there’s to many local derbies. In the 90′s teams played against each other max maybe 3 times a season now it’s 4-5 times!!!! It’s just not as special as in the past were you had to wait a whole year before you had another chance to see them play each other again.

  • Comment 74, posted at 27.01.15 16:32:43 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 74) : That is a great point…they try to sell Shark – WP/Stormer matches as the best thing ever,but the truth is you will get the opportunity to see the same game being played another 3-5 times again in the same year if both teams make it to knockout stages and that doen’t even take into consideration the Vodacom Crap

  • Comment 75, posted at 27.01.15 16:37:06 by BarendL Reply
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  • @BarendL (Comment 73) : yes but also remember that is only a small portion of local players that earn that kind of money than rest are not earning near that.

  • Comment 76, posted at 27.01.15 16:45:34 by JD Reply
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  • @BarendL (Comment 75) : yes and I blame SANZAR for this piss poor Super rugby format that will be even worse from next year on!!!!! Maybe it’s time to get “new blood” into SA rugby and join up with Heineken cup or some alternative competition.

  • Comment 77, posted at 27.01.15 16:53:29 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 76) : I realise that,but even players earning some 600k per year is still suppose to be doing well…I’m not saying dont go overseas,just that dont go when you are 20 – 30 years old,go retire on the overseas salary,do it the Bakkies way,play for club and country and the retire on your own decent terms and go and pocket the last 3-5 years of your career?
    @JD (Comment 77) : And that trend will continue,that I almost guarantee,when it was Super 14,they said its the ultimate,then 15 was ultimate and now 18,,where will it stop?20…22…25 teams?Its already boring,they know it,but greed will always prevail with these ‘bosses’! I would much rather watch our teams take on Toulon,Racing Metro,Leicester,Leinster and the likes than watch half a stadium play the same opponents 5 times a year!

  • Comment 78, posted at 27.01.15 17:05:21 by BarendL Reply
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  • @BarendL (Comment 78) : I think a lot of the youngsters are leaving not to earn money but to try to play International rugby even if it’s not in the Green and Gold. And ja I hope we get to maybe see another competition replace the tired old Super rugby format even if it is still against NZ and Oz teams.

  • Comment 79, posted at 27.01.15 17:11:39 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 79) :

    One other factor is the reasons the rest of us left – we just had a wanderlust and wanted to explore something different. No structures in the world can curb that.

  • Comment 80, posted at 27.01.15 18:19:53 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 72) : Thanks bro

  • Comment 81, posted at 27.01.15 19:05:12 by sharks_lover Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 80) : yes that’s also true and is a contributing factor.

  • Comment 82, posted at 27.01.15 19:07:15 by JD Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 72) : can’t wait to see who’s going!!!

  • Comment 83, posted at 27.01.15 19:08:58 by JD Reply
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  • the reality is that a player who battled to find a place in the vodacom cup can go overseas … join a b club league and still earn 8000 pounds a month with all other expenses covered by the club… accomodation food medical etc. there is no union in south africa who can compete with that based purely on the strength of the euro and pound. when youre 20 and just out of school thats one hell of a carrot

    the other factor is that realistically there is probably only space for 500 professional senior rugby players in the major unions so probably only space for 50 to 100 at most new players a year. not great odds if you are a youngster

  • Comment 84, posted at 27.01.15 19:42:02 by byron Reply

    byronSuper Rugby player
     
  • @byron (Comment 84) : shit if only I was 25 years younger!!!!! That is a huge carrot for a youngster!!!!!

  • Comment 85, posted at 27.01.15 19:52:34 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 85) : You’d also need to be able to play a bit… ????

  • Comment 86, posted at 28.01.15 00:41:31 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 86) : There was a smiley there that didn’t seem to come out…

  • Comment 87, posted at 28.01.15 00:42:13 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 86) : hahaha way back when I could before old age got me!!! :grin:

  • Comment 88, posted at 28.01.15 08:38:06 by JD Reply
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  • @BarendL (Comment 73) : 400k a year for a doctor? haha please tell me your kidding…try double that at least. Also a player will only have 10yrs at most and of that prob only half getting the top salary. And an injury at practise could end that quickly. Im not saying what they get paid is fair or not just that i fully understand them making those careers choices as I would too

  • Comment 89, posted at 28.01.15 09:54:07 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @JD (Comment 88) : I know the feeling. Every joint creams now.

  • Comment 90, posted at 28.01.15 10:20:18 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 90) : Creaks. Damn auto correct

  • Comment 91, posted at 28.01.15 10:20:40 by VinChainSaw Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 91) : hahaha ja got to love auto correct! !!!! Feel even worse today as I had first indoor hokkie practice in about 3 months….. only one thing in my body is not stiff today………….. and that is my left ear!!!!!

  • Comment 92, posted at 28.01.15 14:00:13 by JD Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 67) : Another role player with reg to players leaving to go play overseas will be there agents, now I dont have too much info on this but maybe Morne can enlighten us some more.
    My understanding, the player has an agent which would look after his affairs. As much as it is in the players best interest to get the best possible contract its also in the agents best interest. There is no loyalty to any prov/club but rather who can put the best deal on the table. He needs to sell his players off to the best buyer.
    Would a prov or club negotiate with the agent or player? Is it the clubs that show interest in the player or the agents that shows interest in the club and the player just follows? Often we point finger at the player but who’s responsible?
    Or do I have it all wrong?

  • Comment 93, posted at 28.01.15 14:12:41 by pierre_mackie Reply
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  • @pierre_mackie (Comment 93) : yes you’re right but also a bit wrong as the player is the one who signs or ultimately declines the contract. It’s a bit like the saying “you can lead a horse to water but cannot make him drink” so much the same way his agent can only give advice and offers but the player is the one who signs the contract.

  • Comment 94, posted at 28.01.15 14:31:37 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 94) : a player won’t say no to an attractive contract, it’s the agents job to find those contracts, just my opinion could be wrong ;-)

  • Comment 95, posted at 28.01.15 14:58:48 by pierre_mackie Reply
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  • @pierre_mackie (Comment 95) : yes it’s the agents job and he will try his best to get good deals as he will get more commission but ultimately it is still the player that must decides what contract he signs. Players can’t decide which teams offer them contracts but they can decide which contract to sign.

  • Comment 96, posted at 28.01.15 15:39:25 by JD Reply
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  • @pierre_mackie (Comment 93) :

    Agents are a special breed.

    However, we have moved to the point that agents in SA has to be accredited by SARU, otherwise they may not negotiate on behalf of a player.

    What we cannot do, and will never be able to do, is tell them or force them who to negotiate with. It is a free market.

    Contracts nowadays have been beefed up though. A common clause in most contracts now is that no agent may negotiate with another club/province whilst still under contract. There is only a specific window this is allowed in.

    This means that if you sign a player on more than a 1-year deal, you are pretty assured of having that player for 80% of the duration of that time you signed him for and not lose him to ‘higher’ offers.

  • Comment 97, posted at 29.01.15 10:21:12 by Morné Reply
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  • @byron (Comment 84) : £8k a month playing for B league club…..dream on

  • Comment 98, posted at 29.01.15 16:57:37 by Saffex Reply

    SaffexCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Morné (Comment 97) : I still believe SA Rugby should have a policy if you want to play for the Springboks you play in South Africa, maybe it wont happen with the current lot of players but maybe after World Cup. Othen these guys come back from Japan or Europe and they off the pace. SA Rugby should identify the group they want and negotiate with them to stay and play Super Rugby and Currie Cup. JP Peterson only played some decent rugby towards the end of last years Super Rugby and few decent games for the Boks. People get upset with Ruan Pienaar and the way he plays. He’s brilliant in Europe, adopted their style of rugby, and when he plays for SA thats how he plays typical Northern Hemisphere style of rugby. Frans Steyn looked out of shape when he returned from France 2 seasons ago. Our Currie Cup is also not what it was a few seasons ago, players only want to play Super Rugby, halfway through they start packing their bags already.

  • Comment 99, posted at 30.01.15 06:51:54 by pierre_mackie Reply
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  • @pierre_mackie (Comment 99) : Unfortunately Professional rugby means, that he who has the most money, will inevitably be able to buy the best players
    .It has nothing to do with loyalty or patriotism or any other Roy of the Rover’s type of sentiment.
    The game is getting more and more physically brutal,the players playing career spans more and more, limited,and the players are all already playing for money.
    Only an idiot would play for an inferior team for less money than he could earn elsewhere in his limited career.
    Unfortunately like in everything else South African rugby teams are becoming less and less economically competitive.Face it the Rand is shite.
    But our rugby players are not,one year in Japan playing in a far less brutal league is probably worth two playing in our harsher league.
    Do the math,the better players are going to leave,the ones with any brains.It is happening already.
    So if you limit Springbok selection to those who stay behind you will be limiting yourself to an inferior team.
    Imagine if the Brazilian soccer team limited themselves to those players playing Brazil.
    The game changed when it turned professional.

  • Comment 100, posted at 30.01.15 09:06:00 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 100) : yes and the game of rugby is way better for it,but how many hang onto and/or live in the past,strange

  • Comment 101, posted at 30.01.15 10:27:04 by benji Reply
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  • @benji (Comment 101) : Yup Sport is changing,cricket is at the forefront,if you take the IPL and the recent Australian 50 over competition,very expensive teams are being put together fora very short period of time.
    Other sports will follow,the competitions are very quick over in a 6weeks,played in packed stadiums in front of crowds in excess of 60,0000 and huge live T.V audiences .This what sponsors want.
    Not the long drawn out Super rugby season where most games struggle to get crowds of 10,000,and games played in three countries,resulting in T.V coverage at odd hours for most fans.
    Too many teams mean too many games and a far too long season .Added to that you have a log system that ends up in a knock out tournament.
    Imagine the Premier league season ending in a top six knock out tournament.

  • Comment 102, posted at 30.01.15 11:49:35 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 102) : Some good insights i must admit

  • Comment 103, posted at 30.01.15 12:02:54 by SheldonK Reply

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