robdylan

Don’t be the rock – or the hard place


Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :Original Content, Springboks on 15 Sep 2016 at 10:19
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I watched something rather interesting this morning – a segment from Supersport’s new rugby show, “TMO”. I’ll post the clip below.

In this segment, our old friend Brendan Venter took some time out of his busy schedule to call in and deliver some home truths to the panel, which included one particularly vocal critic of, well, everything, in Nick Mallett. I hadn’t seen what came before Venter’s intervention, but knowing the way Mallett likes to behave on these shows, I can only assume it was more of the same – cutting criticism and unrelenting denigration of Allister Coetzee and every other coach who does not live up to his own lofty standards. The fact that jolly old Saint Nick hasn’t actually done much coaching himself in South Africa in the modern era is neither here nor there – he’s considered an expert and his word is gospel.

Venter dared to buck the trend. He didn’t attempt to gloss over any of the issues affecting the Boks right now, but rather attempted to put these into context, by calling out the factors making life difficult for a young and disrupted team trying to forge a fresh culture and learn a new way to play. Rather than simply complain and berate those involved, the good Doctor calls for patience and urges us to look deeper. Ultimately, he exposes Mallett for having no better solution for Bok rugby right now than to pick up the entire Lions franchise and send them into battle wearing a different colour.

There is so much negativity in our rugby at the moment. The mainstream media – Mallett, Keohane, Nell and all the others who make their living from you reading their work – love this crisis because they know how well bad news sells. I know that you guys like to think differently and think outside the box, so let’s try to combat this disease a little, if we can. After all, it’s when a team is down and going through tough times that it is most in need of supporters. How about we give Allister and the team the benefit of a little patience and some breathing room right now? It can’t hurt, can it?



142 Comments

  • Not as much as it is hurting already Rob…I have a good feeling about this weekend…not a winning feeling…but positive to be honest. ;-)

  • Comment 1, posted at 15.09.16 10:30:13 by DuToit04 Reply
    DuToit04Currie Cup player
     
  • If I’m honest,I have to agree. The way the team is playing is really bad,but who to blame and how to fix it? I have no idea either,so will keep watching the boks and try to complain less. Although I haven’t really blamed AC,he is trying to play more attractive rugby, but that doesn’t happen in 2 months and you can’t blame the coach for mistakes players make on the field

  • Comment 2, posted at 15.09.16 10:30:56 by HeinF Reply
    HeinFTeam captain
     
  • @HeinF (Comment 2) : I feel we need to be really honest about what’s going on there.

    Here, to me, are the top issues…. and none of them are Allister’s fault.

    1 – he was appointed far too late to have any serious preparation time
    2 – the experienced spine of the team (basically Jake’s team from 2004) is no longer there. Half have retired and the thoer half are in Europe and not available.
    3 – injuries to important players
    4 – a lack of credible alternative players for him to pick.

    I genuinely believe that, bar a tiny handful, the best available players are with the Boks right now. I also do not believe there is any credible alternative to Coetzee as coach right not. We’re working with the best of what we have, now we need to leave them alone to find each other and find their way.

  • Comment 3, posted at 15.09.16 10:36:10 by robdylan Reply
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  • I’m sorry but I don’t share the sentiment that we should go easy on AC. No it is not an easy job and I’m just a bok fan and not a coach. But the only person making life difficult for AC is AC himself. By picking players on reputation and experience instead of form. And no, this is not a cry for “maak die leeus almal bokke”! Does anyone know what his gameplan is? The SA rugby public surely doesn’t know, and it’s pretty obvious the players don’t have much of a clue either.

    If he comes out and says ok we are playing 10 man stampkar rugby and kicking for territory, then fine, we know what to expect. But at the start of his reign he spoke a lot about running rugby. So he actually picked a stack of lions players who can play that game, but in not one game (bar the 2nd half in Jhb) have we seen the boks really try to play the same running game the AB’s or Lions (to a lesser degree) play. Instead Elton and Faf who are not known as great tactical kickers are instructed to do exactly that, and then criticised by their coach for failing to do so after every game.

    He also said at the start he will pick oversees based players only if there is no one else locally. Well on Saturday 6/23 are oversees based, and in my opinion 4 of them we could do without.

    Some players (DDA and Mapoe) he had no hesitation to drop for below par performances. But the likes of Beast, Strauss, Flo and oupa are undroppable. Jantjies is a difficult one, he hasn’t performed but the next and only 10 in line is Steyn.

  • Comment 4, posted at 15.09.16 10:36:19 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • Bad news, controversy, scathing criticism sells in the news and internet columns. Its very easy to be negative and the SA public are very good at it even without reason. However, The Boks and AC has made it a lot easier for that negativity to flow and when that tap flows there is no off switch. Even if AC made all the Lions Boks he would still get heavily criticised for them not playing exactly the same way with same results as Ackermann. Whether we like it or not the Boks and AC included are heading for heavy criticism for the remainder of the year and probably going into next year irrespective of what he does. But as you say it is very easy to complain and criticise…its a lot harder to think of a viable and realistic solution that has instant success

  • Comment 5, posted at 15.09.16 10:38:18 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • I must say though, in defence of AC, Stick isn’t exactly an international backline coach. And with all the political pressure he faces his job is made so much more difficult than it should be

  • Comment 6, posted at 15.09.16 10:39:19 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 3) : Just a question. 2 – Why would you want the experienced spine from 2004 to still be there? Don’t you think that 9 years later (since 2007 WC) we should’ve moved on and put succession plans in place?
    4 – There are several players he can drop and replace with guys in form

  • Comment 7, posted at 15.09.16 10:43:05 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 3) :

    I’m sorry Rob, I hear what you are saying, but I cannot agree fully.

    You make valid points, and so does Venter. He has a rugby brain and a way of thinking that very few others can compete with, but this is also the same Venter who came to the Sharks and tried to put his stamp on it, and then got tired of the idea of flying to Durban twice and week and we never really saw the impact.

    You raise a few main issues, which I agree with and I have mentioned on here previously, but you also leave out a few:

    1. Your point on preparation time is only really valid for the Irish series, and we all knew that we got lucky to win that series anyway. He would not have been able to spend much more time with the squad if he was appointed last year December already, seeing as the players were all busy with Super Rugby. An earlier appointment might have made a difference in the Irish series purely from a logistics perspective, but more than I am afraid is no real excuse. Remember also, even though he was only apointed late, everybody and their dog knew he was going to be the coach, you cannot tell me he did not know and only started prepping for the job when it was announced.

  • Comment 8, posted at 15.09.16 10:45:33 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Leeubok (Comment 7) : agree, but AC isn’t the one who didn’t do succession planning. That one falls squarely at the feet of PDV and HM. The coach who develops the next tier of players is the one who pays for it in terms of results. Hard to justify doing that when you know the wise men of the SA Rugby public are going to call for your head after any sub-standard performance,

  • Comment 9, posted at 15.09.16 10:46:10 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Leeubok (Comment 7) : examples please

  • Comment 10, posted at 15.09.16 10:46:36 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 8) : well, actually, given that he was being paid to do a different job in a different country at the time of the appointment, I’d like to think he was putting his energy into that job before he was appointed.

    I’m all for picking up sticks and hitting people with them, but let’s make sure it’s a reasonable stick :)

  • Comment 11, posted at 15.09.16 10:47:57 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 9) : SARU also to blame here

  • Comment 12, posted at 15.09.16 10:51:13 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 3) :

    Furthermore:

    2. The experienced spine is no longer there. Yes players have retired and moved on, but is that not exactly what we as fans were asking for all of last year. Nobody wanted to see Matfield and Jannie and Jean go more than us fans calling them out because they were old, Fourie du Preez included. We wanted to see change, we wanted to see new players coming through. We as fans are not unhappy as a result of the players leaving and new players coming through, we are unhappy that certain players are still in that team based purely on previous form. You cannot tell me that Francois Louw deserves to be in the starting team based on his performances so far this year.

    Some of the serious issues which can be directly attributed to Coetzee:

    1. Constant chopping and changing of players, based on nothing more than a hunch. We know De Allende and Mapoe never functioned as a midfield pair, but did they really get any ball in order to prove so? If the plan was to get that midfield to run with the ball, Jantjies should have been dropped in order to get the ball to the centres. If the plan was always for Jantjies to kick away all the ball, then why drop the centres for doing exactly what the plan is? Further, the player he brings into the team then all play out of position? Surely he has control over which players play in which position? 4 of the backline players against the All Blacks are not playing in their regular positions, how can this be a good thing?

    2. The Strauss debacle. The question still remains whether Coetzee really knew Strauss was going to retire, but after the Irish series, what was he thinking appointing him for the rest of the year? He is clearly not the best hooker in the country, and neither is he the best captain?

  • Comment 13, posted at 15.09.16 10:52:24 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 11) : No reasonable sticks left in SA Rob…you are out of luck there

  • Comment 14, posted at 15.09.16 10:52:28 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • Like it or not AC is the coach… SARU put him on the backfoot by taking for ever to announce him as coach and deserve to be racked over the coals for that…My big thing is I dont like AC normal way of coaching, but what is worse is he is not even getting to his normal style but rather this last minute thrown together plan c game plan which we are using. before every game we get told we are planing “this”… and every game i see “that” instead of “this”.

    At the end of the day AC has his head on the block he needs to choice a game plan that he is happy coaching and choose support staff that can compliment him and his game plan and lastly he needs to pick the best players for the game plan he wants to execute… they may not be the big try scorers from super rugby or fit into the quotas or are local players but they must be the best choices to execute his plan.

    I also don’t care if we loose now… JW (Jake White) lost a few and even a game to Ireland (if i remember correctly but away not at home) when he first came in… we must play the long game aiming at RWC and not get caught into HM policy of grinding out wins in an attempt to keep SA happy.

  • Comment 15, posted at 15.09.16 10:53:05 by Warren Harvey Reply

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  • @robdylan (Comment 11) :

    Are rugby fans ever reasonable?

  • Comment 16, posted at 15.09.16 10:54:25 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 16) : I think we all have a lot of room to improve. If we just accept that statement, then it becomes a race to the bottom.

    “Don’t expect me to be reasonable about this – it’s rugby”…. sorry, I can’t buy that.

  • Comment 17, posted at 15.09.16 10:56:41 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 10) : The first and obvious one: Kriel in place of Flo (who has been the most disappointing of all the experienced players)
    Strauss – Boni and Marx
    Beast – a bit more difficult with several injuries to front rowers. But between our young and promising guys like D. Smith, Koch, Kitshoff, Adriaanse etc I’m sure we can make do. At least build for the future
    Lood – PSDT happened now only due to injury. Mostert on bench
    Oupa/Alberts – if you really want a big bruiser in this position then try one of the du preez twins off the bench
    12 – Rohan
    13 – Mapoe
    11 – Skosan/Zas
    15 – No one really putting their hands up so Goosen is a good stop gap for now. But would like to see him get a chance at 10. So put Jesse Kriel there where he belongs.

  • Comment 18, posted at 15.09.16 10:57:43 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 13) : Agree with you 100%

  • Comment 19, posted at 15.09.16 10:59:11 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • Just something to ponder….how good are the current players we have in SA really? The Boks in the last 12 months have not been good and neither have any individuals within those Bok teams. SA teams have not been good in Super rugby. Yes Lions made the Super rugby final but they beat SA sides, lost to Argies and overall got smashed by New Zealanders. We say there are good players in the CC…but they are playing against other Sa players which we know arent good…so how good are those players really? If we sit back and actually look at thing….are the Bok results etc not exactly right based on how Sa players have been playing lately?

  • Comment 20, posted at 15.09.16 10:59:39 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 17) :

    Can the fan be expected to be reasonable if the losses are racking up and the only person we can look at to blame is the coach.

    Yes the coach doesnt get to take the field, and as a result cannot be blamed for losses, but he has all the control in who takes the field, the plan in place to beat the opposition and it is his only job. I am not saying it is easy, not at all, but if you say you are going to bring a new brand of rugby, then do it 100% and not 50%. At this stage, there are moments of brilliance thanks to 50% of the plan working, but to get to 100%, the ballsy calls have to be made across the board. The call to start Faf was ballsy, he is a spark player, but then make the ballsy call to start Kriel and see how that goes as well. It was ballsy to start Oupa after his up and down season with the Cheetahs, but follow that up with a ballsy call and dropping Beast.

    I can back the coach if he does what he says. Unfortunately, he is saying one thing but his actions don’t all back that one thing…

  • Comment 21, posted at 15.09.16 11:01:52 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • But having said that (my choice of replacements), it is no use selecting players that don’t fit your gameplan. You cannot expect WW to have the same bruiser effect Duane has. Or expect Faf and Jantjies to kick every ball. AC says he wants a good ball carrier that can get you over the advantage line every time. but he has Kriel sitting on the bench (who was one of the best ball carriers in super rugby).

  • Comment 22, posted at 15.09.16 11:03:42 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • With due respect to the boss, I just listened to the interview. Love me some Mallett! A natural born winner if ever there was one, refuses to make excuses for mediocrity.

  • Comment 23, posted at 15.09.16 11:04:45 by West Indies Cricket Board Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 20) : Um, if I’m not mistaken the Lions smashed the Saders and Highlanders in the knockout phase? Also beat the Chiefs in Hamilton. So all in all I think they did ok against NZ opposition… I don’t believe this thing people have nowadays of we don’t have the players or the skills. We do!

  • Comment 24, posted at 15.09.16 11:05:29 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 3) : also remember how many of his assistant coaches did he pick? Most was just handed to him!
    Although I don’t like it maybe time to give AC a break as SARU once again managed to ensure instant failure!

  • Comment 25, posted at 15.09.16 11:06:55 by JD Reply
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  • Look, Coetzee has made some ballsy calls to date, we cannot disagree. I think we just want to see more of them.

    Goosen at fullback was ballsy. Not sure yet if it is the right call, but I would hate to be back with Willie.

    Combrinck on the wing instead of Mvovo, JP Pietersen and the old guard – ballsy..

    Faf – Ballsy

    Kitshoff from France – massive call

  • Comment 26, posted at 15.09.16 11:08:44 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • These guys aren’t volunteers, they get paid huge sums to be professional and they represent us, the country so they are expected to try their best all the time. Problem is they’re not trying their best, it’s glaringly obvious in every aspect of this new setup. Sorry, I don’t believe in the ‘safe spaces’ culture of today. Shape up or get criticized and ship out is all there is.

    Losing while building is fine by me but no one can honestly look at this and see many positives at all.

  • Comment 27, posted at 15.09.16 11:09:05 by Mephisto_Shark Reply

    Mephisto_SharkCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 24) : They also got smashed by the Canes twice and Crusaders once. So pretty hit and miss for them…hardly consistent. As you say we have players with the abilities…but performances for any team at any level dont back that up

  • Comment 28, posted at 15.09.16 11:09:50 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 18) : so your answer is to pick a Lions player in every position where there isn’t currently one.

    Ok, just making sure I understand.

  • Comment 29, posted at 15.09.16 11:20:39 by robdylan Reply
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  • The reason Jaco Kriel isn’t being picked to start is because it’s felt his combination with Whiteley leaves the Boks light in the loose trio. Flouw may not be playing well, but he’s a known grafter with a hard edge who does the dirty work. Kriel is not an opensider in any traditional sense of the word. WW is already finding the going at test level a lot harder – he’s getting bullied physically. If you add Kriel to the mix, we are going to get killed at the breakdowns even worse than we are now. Whitely and Kriel is not a test combination, sorry to disappoint all the Lions fans.

    And as for the Du Preez twins – easy to say, expect one is injured and the other is, frankly, battling to assert himself in a very mediocre Currie Cup. Come now, let’s get real.

  • Comment 30, posted at 15.09.16 11:25:02 by robdylan Reply
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  • I think it’s easy to just pull names out of the hat. Thing is test rugby isn’t provincial rugby. Strauss is definately not the player that ousted Bismarck a year or two ago! That said, Marx has had question marks over his line out accuracy, a primary function. Bar bringing the now injured Bismarck back, Strauss was still the best option.
    Rohan JvR has been brilliant on attack but not so much on defense. By all means start blooding players, but willy nilly changes won’t benefit the team

  • Comment 31, posted at 15.09.16 11:30:08 by KingCheetah Reply

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  • @KingCheetah (Comment 31) : THIS

  • Comment 32, posted at 15.09.16 11:31:40 by robdylan Reply
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  • @KingCheetah (Comment 31) : Big game for your boys tonight Cheetah…

  • Comment 33, posted at 15.09.16 11:31:49 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 3) : Every single one of your points that you make attributing to Coetzee dismal effort can be attributed to Eddie Jones start to coaching England.
    Yet in months he did what no other English coach has done whitewash Aus in Aus.
    The difference between the two one is a genuine coach ,the other is an assistant promoted above his level of competence and is paying the price for it.

  • Comment 34, posted at 15.09.16 11:34:19 by The hound Reply
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  • Hmmmm and here I was thinking that (until last weekend) Mallet has been very lenient and guarded in his views to what the Boks dished up.

  • Comment 35, posted at 15.09.16 11:34:30 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 33) : Yes! Massive, but more so for the Lions. They haven’t been so assertive in away games, and can’t afford to drop points in any matches.
    Cheetajs can afford a loss, but need at least a point from it.
    They play Pumas in Nelspruit, and then a tricky fixture vs. Griquas in Bloem. So if they can bank at least a point against the CC champs, and a full house vs the Pumas, they are virtually assured op top position. That said, I am hoping for a win!

  • Comment 36, posted at 15.09.16 11:39:36 by KingCheetah Reply

    KingCheetahTeam captain
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 30) : @KingCheetah (Comment 31) :@SheldonK (Comment 28) : and there’s still some voices of reason out there!!! Was starting to thinking I was alone in the world!!!

  • Comment 37, posted at 15.09.16 11:40:55 by JD Reply
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  • @KingCheetah (Comment 36) : A win for the Cheetahs tonight takes a lot of pressure off the next 2 weeks before playoffs. Looking forward to the game.

  • Comment 38, posted at 15.09.16 11:44:48 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @The hound (Comment 34) : yes

  • Comment 39, posted at 15.09.16 11:47:29 by West Indies Cricket Board Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 34) : not to mention the last time he had a meaningful assistant job, the same aussie had to be flown in to do the actual assisting. More of an assistant assistant coach then.

  • Comment 40, posted at 15.09.16 11:49:31 by West Indies Cricket Board Reply
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  • @West Indies Cricket Board (Comment 40) : Used to be known as a baggage master

  • Comment 41, posted at 15.09.16 11:51:43 by The hound Reply
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  • @KingCheetah (Comment 36) : really hoping Cheetahs can do the Sharks a huge favour by beating the Lions! Would be even better if they could ensure that the Lions does not score any log points!
    Good luck for the game and go Cheetahs!!!

  • Comment 42, posted at 15.09.16 11:55:11 by JD Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 41) : hehe

  • Comment 43, posted at 15.09.16 11:56:15 by West Indies Cricket Board Reply
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  • How about NM and BV put their money where their mouths are and actually do something about fixing Bok rugby! Both of them have allot to say but are unwilling to coach the boks!

  • Comment 44, posted at 15.09.16 11:57:20 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 44) : why would they when they would work for retards who fire coaches after winning the world fking cup? Plus they arent wanted, because they arent yes men. Remember SARU opted to lose Rassie Erasmus completely, as in he moved to another country, just to be able to put Allister Soetjiespoep Coetzee in charge

  • Comment 45, posted at 15.09.16 12:06:23 by West Indies Cricket Board Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 44) : now that’s a great comment!!! Easy to talk maybe time for them to do the walk!!!

  • Comment 46, posted at 15.09.16 12:06:34 by JD Reply
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  • @West Indies Cricket Board (Comment 45) : ok, “Soetjiespoep “? You have to explain that one :)

  • Comment 47, posted at 15.09.16 12:21:58 by robdylan Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 42) : Agreed! How else we gonna get a Cheetah vs Sharks final ????

  • Comment 48, posted at 15.09.16 12:32:14 by KingCheetah Reply

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  • Well he doesnt strike me as a man with the swagger to confidently let one rip if you know what I mean.

  • Comment 49, posted at 15.09.16 12:38:23 by West Indies Cricket Board Reply
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  • @West Indies Cricket Board (Comment 49) : suutjiepoep i suppose ? :lol:

  • Comment 50, posted at 15.09.16 12:41:38 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @West Indies Cricket Board (Comment 49) : LOL :)

  • Comment 51, posted at 15.09.16 12:42:47 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 50) : eish, jammer. dankie. Suutjiespoep. Glad nie baie soet nie. :twisted:

  • Comment 52, posted at 15.09.16 12:47:25 by West Indies Cricket Board Reply
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  • @West Indies Cricket Board (Comment 52) : goeie beskrywing ! lekker gelag ! :lol:

  • Comment 53, posted at 15.09.16 13:01:40 by Zibbie Reply
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  • My view is bring back all of Jakes boys at Montpellier,throw in the Lions and thats your Bok team

  • Comment 54, posted at 15.09.16 13:11:51 by benji Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 30) : Come on, really? So tell me how Flouw has used his massive bulk and weight difference to good effect in the last 6 tests? How many balls did he steal (remember that is one of his strenghts and reason for being there). I like how people use “doing the dirty work” as an excuse when a player doesn’t perform. So where has WW been bullied? Has he missed a lot of tackles so far? I think the fact that when he runs with the ball and attacks spaces and not faces it annoys you? Do you like it more when a Alberts runs straight over a guy and falls 2m over the advantage line? This obsession with size must stop.

    And no, I am not promoting every Lions player. Go read my suggestions again, not all of them are calls for Lions players. (although I wouldn’t mind… :twisted: )

  • Comment 55, posted at 15.09.16 13:12:42 by Leeubok Reply

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  • @benji (Comment 54) : no Shark,no Bull,no stormer desreves to be near Bok rugby and also not the coach

  • Comment 56, posted at 15.09.16 13:14:16 by benji Reply
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  • @Leeubok (Comment 55) : I get you, Flo is not in the best of form, but also remember that we are missing Thormeulen who can dominate any collision and thus creating the space and time for Flo to steal the amount of balls he did, it is what you call a working combination, and they are also missing MC

  • Comment 57, posted at 15.09.16 13:16:06 by Henkb Reply
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  • @Leeubok (Comment 55) : what utter crap ,willem alberts doesnt only make 2 meters when he runs over everyone he actually makes alot more if he runs onto the ball at pace.You trying to sound like nick mallet here with your run at space not at face crap.Its much easier to run over someone than it is to look for space and dont tell me this shit that it doesnt work for us to run over people anymore becuase it will if we choose big forwards to run onto the ball rather than standing still.IF A Team has a good defence its so hard to run at space becuase there is none.If youre so correct than why isn’t whitley punching holes through defencive lines.Where as if you use simple physics and have a big object running at pace into a another object theres obviusly one winner (p=mv)

  • Comment 58, posted at 15.09.16 14:01:50 by schrodingers cat Reply

    schrodingers catCurrie Cup player
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 55) : Youre beloved warren whitley should be nowhere near a bok jersey unless its for toach rugby.The only time he looks good is when the defense is shit and there are gaps to run at everywhere but look at what happens to him when theres no space.Warren cant hit people back in the tackle like Vermeulen and Alberts can and that is what we are misding from the boks.The springboks were always feared for our big intimidating forward pack who dominate collitions e.g Danie rossow,Bakkies,Willem,Juan ect. Like Ian jones said we are the springboks not the all blacks we have our own identity that made us 1 or 2 best rugby country for years but now we want to change becuase others say we must

  • Comment 59, posted at 15.09.16 14:10:22 by schrodingers cat Reply

    schrodingers catCurrie Cup player
     
  • @schrodingers cat (Comment 59) : you could have put this more kindly, I feel, but I don’t disagree at all with the sentiment.

  • Comment 60, posted at 15.09.16 14:14:01 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 60) : @Leeubok (Comment 55) : But this is only like my opinion so yeah and sorry if the comment sounds rude i just wanted to proove my point and got a bit frustrated

  • Comment 61, posted at 15.09.16 14:19:04 by schrodingers cat Reply

    schrodingers catCurrie Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 60) : Rob, just a matter of interest, but who is hacking your website?

  • Comment 62, posted at 15.09.16 14:20:00 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 62) : what do you mean?

  • Comment 63, posted at 15.09.16 14:24:59 by robdylan Reply
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  • @schrodingers cat (Comment 59) : I hear you. Whiteley, unfortunately is proving to be a bit of a flat track bully much like Pierre Spies was. Breathtaking when on the front foot, but disappears completely when chips are down.

  • Comment 64, posted at 15.09.16 14:25:24 by West Indies Cricket Board Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 63) : So much gambling articles coming up lately ;)

  • Comment 65, posted at 15.09.16 14:27:18 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 65) : actually, just 1. And if you check out my thermometer, you will understand why I occasionally have to publish these articles.

  • Comment 66, posted at 15.09.16 14:35:08 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 65) : O PAP, Robs clearing a path for the new Bok sponsor.

  • Comment 67, posted at 15.09.16 14:37:59 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 66) : No second one I have seen in the last two months.

    @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 67) : :lol:

  • Comment 68, posted at 15.09.16 14:39:30 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 68) : well, you’re not being forced to read it, so if it offends you that much, just scroll on by.

  • Comment 69, posted at 15.09.16 14:44:46 by robdylan Reply
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  • @schrodingers cat (Comment 59) : @robdylan (Comment 60) : So you are saying that AC is selecting the wrong players, I thought this excercise was about being nice to him.

  • Comment 70, posted at 15.09.16 14:46:24 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @schrodingers cat (Comment 59) : I presume you arent a Keegan fan.

  • Comment 71, posted at 15.09.16 14:48:05 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 70) : yes

  • Comment 72, posted at 15.09.16 14:52:54 by schrodingers cat Reply

    schrodingers catCurrie Cup player
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 48) : for sure ;-)

  • Comment 73, posted at 15.09.16 14:53:40 by JD Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 71) : Im honest i do prefer size and physicality so know i wont pick him in my bok side vs the AB but it was always fun to see those legendary chip kicks ect he had in him for the sharks

  • Comment 74, posted at 15.09.16 15:01:58 by schrodingers cat Reply

    schrodingers catCurrie Cup player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 69) : Rob you could have put this more kindly, I feel, but I don’t disagree at all with your sentiment.

  • Comment 75, posted at 15.09.16 15:04:38 by JD Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 70) : who else is he meant to pick? The argument was actually about Kriel and why he and Whiteley can’t play test rugby together.

  • Comment 76, posted at 15.09.16 15:13:47 by robdylan Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 75) : I’m sticking out my tongue at you and making a rude noise.

  • Comment 77, posted at 15.09.16 15:14:11 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 77) : hahaha sorry I just had to!!! ;-)

  • Comment 78, posted at 15.09.16 15:16:24 by JD Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 76) : do yourself a favour and just give up (like I did)!!! AC is kak and everything he does is wrong!!! Ackers and co are like Gandalf and Harry Potter and can do no wrong!!! Maak die Leeus almal Bokke and get it over and done!!!

  • Comment 79, posted at 15.09.16 15:22:34 by JD Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 65) : @robdylan (Comment 66) : Help us to help you !!!!!

  • Comment 80, posted at 15.09.16 15:23:13 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @schrodingers cat (Comment 74) : All the bulk didnt help against Japan tough .. cant depend on bulk alone ?

    But i think ATM you can take any of the 23 bok players and moan about each of them .

  • Comment 81, posted at 15.09.16 15:24:53 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 81) : The problem vs Japan was the bulk trying to play a high tempo running game. The traditional Bok game needed a tweak not an overhaul…but too late now

  • Comment 82, posted at 15.09.16 15:26:26 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @JD (Comment 79) : can we have etsabet in the team as well please ?

  • Comment 83, posted at 15.09.16 15:26:27 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 82) : like i said . Pick any player in the match day 23 and we can have a moan about him .

  • Comment 84, posted at 15.09.16 15:27:50 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 83) : NO it’s all or nothing!!! ;-)

  • Comment 85, posted at 15.09.16 15:29:01 by JD Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 82) : everybody fit and available , who would your bok team be ?

  • Comment 86, posted at 15.09.16 15:30:22 by Zibbie Reply
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  • This Bok pack would take some beating (when fit): 1. Kitshoff. 2 Bismarck 3. Redelinghuis 4. Etzebeth 5. PSDT 6. Coetzee 7. Vermuelen 8. Van Der Walt. Bench: Nche, Marx, Koch, Mostert,Kriel
    Experience to start, quality youth off the bench

  • Comment 87, posted at 15.09.16 15:31:44 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Zibbie (Comment 86) : Good Question are you Brendan Venter.

  • Comment 88, posted at 15.09.16 15:33:33 by The hound Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 87) : backs ?

  • Comment 89, posted at 15.09.16 15:33:51 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 84) : Bongi Mbonambi for 20 points!?

  • Comment 90, posted at 15.09.16 15:34:04 by JD Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 88) : i learn from the best :razz:
    but the trick is fit and available . so you can include frans steyn ect

  • Comment 91, posted at 15.09.16 15:35:02 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 90) : he should figure out where Strauss got nude picks of AC ? :razz:

  • Comment 92, posted at 15.09.16 15:37:53 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 89) : I have a different view on how backs should line up. So my personal preference: 9. DeKlerk 10. Lambie 11. Combrinck 12. Steyn 13. Van Rensburg 14. Mapoe 15. Kriel Bench: Meyer, Pollard, DeAllende

  • Comment 93, posted at 15.09.16 15:38:13 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Zibbie (Comment 92) : I dont know if id want to see those…maybe that explains Strauss’s form..he is still traumatised

  • Comment 94, posted at 15.09.16 15:39:26 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 93) : seems like a balanced side . meyer as in Tiaan meyer ? Combrinck 11 is also interesting

  • Comment 95, posted at 15.09.16 15:43:35 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 95) : Yeh Tiaan Meyer- does the basics well and is an aggressive scrummy – very useful when coming on. And Combrinck 11 to give his educated right boot the best advantage…i would be tempted to switch wings as Combrincks best step is to step inside and Mapoe to step outside so may swap them.

  • Comment 96, posted at 15.09.16 15:46:48 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Zibbie (Comment 92) : @SheldonK (Comment 94) : ag hell no man was that necessary!!! Ugly just got a new image!!!

  • Comment 97, posted at 15.09.16 15:47:45 by JD Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 76) : Not sure who he is meant to pick – Im not the one with the beef re Whiteley. Yeah I got sidetracked with all the hankering for muscle.

  • Comment 98, posted at 15.09.16 15:48:21 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 98) : sounds a lot like my daughter! That’s now with the beef and muscles part!

  • Comment 99, posted at 15.09.16 15:50:22 by JD Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 82) : @Zibbie (Comment 81) : p=mv but if v=0 then obviusly theres no momentum and thats what happend.Our ball cariers got the ball while standing still and the japanese rushed up and hit us,thats why the bulls from 07 developed a play where their big forwards ran from directly behind a ruck say 10m away in a parabolic shape and got the ball at speed by the time they were in line with the scrumhalf(flat ball) . I get anxiety when i see a forward gets a pass while standing still. And sheldon i do think we can cope with a fast paced game as long as our attack is structured ,the higher the pace of the game the higher is the pressure. Beacuse i like big forwards doesnt mean i want to see a slow game from them i actually want speed into contact and quick rucking with a clean service .

  • Comment 100, posted at 15.09.16 15:51:35 by schrodingers cat Reply

    schrodingers catCurrie Cup player
     
  • @JD (Comment 97) : @SheldonK (Comment 94) : do you feel i could have put it more kindly ?

  • Comment 101, posted at 15.09.16 15:52:58 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @schrodingers cat (Comment 100) : The problem with the SA idea of a fast paced game is that they forget that you still have to win the collisions, still have to win your ruck ball, still have to make your knock back tackles…cant just run around popping the ball to each other and hoping someone else will tackle etc. As thats what it looks like currently. As the New Zealanders always say…what do they fear…The Boks size on the move

  • Comment 102, posted at 15.09.16 15:55:03 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Zibbie (Comment 101) : I think you gave us a very plausible explanation into Strauss’s current dazed and perplexed look

  • Comment 103, posted at 15.09.16 15:56:26 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Zibbie (Comment 101) : you could have given another prettier explanation like they’re in love or something! ;-)
    @SheldonK (Comment 103) : but like Sheldon said it would explain the drop in Strauss’s form but then again it does not look as if it had an influence on his appetite (like it did mine)!!!

  • Comment 104, posted at 15.09.16 16:15:42 by JD Reply
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  • @schrodingers cat (Comment 100) : ja sometimes (to me) it looks as if they did not learn the basics of running onto the ball. Another forgotten basic (well in my days) drawing a defender before passing the ball. Some teams just pass and try to shift the ball to the wing whilst all the defenders just drift with the ball leaving the poor wing with no room and 7 defenders tackling the living snot out of him!

  • Comment 105, posted at 15.09.16 16:28:22 by JD Reply
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  • Rob,

    I would like to know what your basis is for calling Venter a good Doctor.

    Medicine, like most professions, is something that one practice. It is inconceivable that he could be good at it after decades of not practicing.

    Formulaic phrase? I know, Homer did plenty, but we have writing now. ;)

  • Comment 106, posted at 15.09.16 16:39:27 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 106) : but he does practice :) That’s why he could never commit to a full time gig in Durbs.

  • Comment 107, posted at 15.09.16 16:40:16 by robdylan Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 105) : when last did we see habbana sprinting down a open toach line with that signature run of his,remember how many times from 05 to 2011 we saw that from him its what gave him his name but like you said now he has no space everyone is on him

  • Comment 108, posted at 15.09.16 17:29:13 by schrodingers cat Reply

    schrodingers catCurrie Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 102) : agree

  • Comment 109, posted at 15.09.16 17:31:43 by schrodingers cat Reply

    schrodingers catCurrie Cup player
     
  • tough crowd today!

  • Comment 110, posted at 15.09.16 17:44:41 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 110) : more like a lynch mob!!!

  • Comment 111, posted at 15.09.16 20:19:47 by JD Reply
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  • @schrodingers cat (Comment 108) : exactly!

  • Comment 112, posted at 15.09.16 20:20:37 by JD Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 3) : I think I get what you are trying to say. If we can call for patience and give the sharks a year to rebuild, we have to realise that same thing has to happen with the boks. The guys there are all playing great rugby, but most of them should be there, just not delivering.
    I hate loosing as much as the next guy and this terrible period for the boks hurt, but I don’t think AC is arrogant or ignorant. Time will tell,maybe he can turn this around,maybe not…all I can say is there aren’t many coaches out there who can turn the boks around in 2 months that would take the job and you can’t blame the coach for the players giving away so many penalties and making silly decisions on the field.

  • Comment 113, posted at 15.09.16 22:42:05 by HeinF Reply

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  • @schrodingers cat (Comment 108) :

    If you look back you will see that those runs had actually tapered off within a season or two of his debut.

    The reason is simple. Once the opponents know how fast he is, they learn to run the correct intercept angles or position themselves better. Since then he is most effective against minor teams, where players are mostly of lesser talent or unfamiliar with his speed.
    to wit
    From the NH tour in ’04, where he made his debut until the end of ’05, he scored 15 tries in 15 Tests.
    06: 2
    07: 13 (half against minor teams at the WC)
    08: 2
    09: 4
    10: 2
    11: 2 (both against minor teams at the WC)
    12: 7
    13 : 6
    14: 4
    15: 7 (WC again)
    16: 1 (so far)

    under Jake: 30 (in 3.5 seasons)
    Divvie: 10
    Meyer: 24

    The problem with speed is that it is very predictable.

  • Comment 114, posted at 15.09.16 22:59:38 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 114) :

    An interesting note is that NTvl/The Bulls, typically have always had the most prolific try scoring wings in South Africa. Just as in the above stats, there is a correlation between the 10-man game-plan and wing tries, even for wings of middling talent.

  • Comment 115, posted at 16.09.16 00:34:30 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 115) :

    Example:
    Akona Ndugane has scored 33 tries in 108 SR game, Odwa 33 in 131 games.
    That is 1 try every 3.27 games for Akona and 3.97 games for Odwa. Or 1.21 tries by Akona for every 1 by Odwa.
    Presumably the two are of equal talent.
    The ratio holds for CC games (1.19).

  • Comment 116, posted at 16.09.16 01:01:18 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @HeinF (Comment 113) : Our rebuild year was 3 years ago. Then the next year. Then the next. Do we need 2017 as well? Seems like all we have been doing is rebuild, shine a little take two steps back and rebuild again.

  • Comment 117, posted at 16.09.16 07:06:03 by coolfusion Reply

    coolfusionSuper Rugby player
     
  • @HeinF (Comment 113) : Our rebuild year was 3 years ago. Then the next year. Then the next. Do we need 2017 as well? Seems like all we have been doing is rebuild, shine a little take two steps back and rebuild again.

  • Comment 118, posted at 16.09.16 07:06:27 by coolfusion Reply

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  • @fyndraai (Comment 115) : Reason for that is the Bulls game plan was to tire out the opposition for 50-60min by making them chase kicks and deal with driving mauls and tackle big heavy forwards. After those 50-60min the opposition were buggered and the Bulls then just moved the ball wide for wings to score. I would have a bet that the Bulls scored more tries that year they won Super rugby against the Chiefs than the Lions did this year…just a feeling i have.

  • Comment 119, posted at 16.09.16 08:05:05 by SheldonK Reply

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  • Very interesting comment from JP Pieterson during an interview with him on rugby365: Personally, I would rather play boring, winning rugby than play expansively and lose Test matches.

  • Comment 120, posted at 16.09.16 08:40:11 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @coolfusion (Comment 117) : maybe it’s next year!!!

  • Comment 121, posted at 16.09.16 09:25:21 by JD Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 116) : I still maintain there is only one good Ndungane brother and they used to swap places. I never saw both playing well at the same time.

  • Comment 122, posted at 16.09.16 10:09:11 by robdylan Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 119) :

    That works.
    When players are tired there is lots of easy pickings for wings. Altitude also plays into this. My thinking was that kicks introduce randomness and unorganized defensive lines that plays into the hands of fast opportunistic players.

    @robdylan (Comment 122) :

    So that’s why people posted lines like: “…the Boks should play the Nduganes at 14″

  • Comment 123, posted at 16.09.16 12:01:55 by fyndraai Reply
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  • Really feel for this Bok team,not only is everyone expecting them to lose horribly but a large amount of former Bok supporters are willing it.
    Was in a berg pub for the last game and so surprised to see a group of Afrikaans farmers high five the Aus win.

  • Comment 124, posted at 16.09.16 12:05:30 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 124) : Support for Sa rugby and especially Bok rugby seems to be at an all time low…and considering the Boks have been on the losing end of much bigger scorelines in the past perhaps shows how the public feel about this team. The big question is…what is required to change that thinking and attitude? And im afraid its not an easy or even attainable solution currently

  • Comment 125, posted at 16.09.16 12:13:04 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @robdylan (Comment 122) : hahahaha ja boet!!!

  • Comment 126, posted at 16.09.16 12:17:30 by JD Reply
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  • @coolfusion (Comment 118) : Every year is our rebuild year…till we win the cup ;)

  • Comment 127, posted at 16.09.16 12:29:47 by HeinF Reply

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  • @HeinF (Comment 127) : talking about rebuilding wonder when they going to rebuild Kings park as I’ve seen people complaining about it?

  • Comment 128, posted at 16.09.16 13:50:58 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 128) : Cost vs Benefit…they wont rebuild just do patchwork repair…would move across the road if anything major was required.

  • Comment 129, posted at 16.09.16 13:57:52 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 129) : ja that’s a whole other can of worms!!!

  • Comment 130, posted at 16.09.16 14:50:45 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 130) : Big can with big worms…

  • Comment 131, posted at 16.09.16 14:56:51 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 131) : ja just like in most things in life there’s pros and cons! Just hope people that have to decide do what’s best for Sharks and rugby and not their own ideas or agendas!!!

  • Comment 132, posted at 16.09.16 15:09:17 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 132) : I still think the best way to gauge the feasability of a move is to hold a game at Moses Mabhida…either a warm up game or something. Charge minimal entrance fee and then get the fans opinions via the website

  • Comment 133, posted at 16.09.16 15:28:30 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 133) : yes that could work and is probably the best way to do it.

  • Comment 134, posted at 16.09.16 15:40:52 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 128) : JD big changes coming due to hosting of Commonwealth games

  • Comment 135, posted at 17.09.16 12:33:40 by benji Reply
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  • @benji (Comment 135) : when is Commonwealth games in Durbs?

  • Comment 136, posted at 19.09.16 15:16:07 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 136) : 2022…assuming we can afford it.

  • Comment 137, posted at 19.09.16 15:21:53 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 137) : ok missed that one!!! And no don’t think they can afford it but has that ever stopped them for doing it!!!

  • Comment 138, posted at 19.09.16 15:42:12 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 138) : We definitely cannot afford it. But as you say since when has logic been used to make decisions

  • Comment 139, posted at 19.09.16 15:44:49 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 139) : not for a long time!!! Let’s not be negative on this lovely Monday maybe things will be a lot better by then!!!

  • Comment 140, posted at 19.09.16 15:50:57 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 140) : Yup on the bright side both the Boks and the Sharks are guaranteed not to lose this weekend

  • Comment 141, posted at 19.09.16 15:52:53 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 141) : yes it’s a “no lose” weekend!!!

  • Comment 142, posted at 19.09.16 17:55:08 by JD Reply
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