robdylan

Pay to play?


Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :Original Content, Sharks on 22 Sep 2016 at 11:19
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I’m sure by now we’ve all read Craig Ray‘s thought-provoking piece on the Vodacom Rugby website, in which he questions the bloated state of professional rugby structures in South Africa today. If not, go and have a peruse before returning here.

Ray’s views on many of these issues mirror my own; for many years now, I have advocated a reduction in the number of professional unions in South Africa, believing that it is downright disingenuous to dilute our national rugby revenue across quite so large a plethora of unions and players, many of which never deliver anything resembling a return on that investment. The purpose of this piece, though, is not to revisit that old ground, but rather to pick up on a different point raised: that of the pathway from schoolboy rugby to professionalism.

To quote from Ray’s piece, “A talented schoolboy [in South Africa] is courted by several provincial unions and negotiates a R750,000 a year junior contract before he has been tackled by a ‘hardebaard.’ That player arrives at the gates of his new union in a sponsored 4×4 thinking he has already made it. The equivalent schoolboy in New Zealand is sharing digs with three other players, surviving off a stipend. If he wants to make it, he has to be hungrier than the rest – he has to work harder.” I’m sure we can all picture players to whom this could apply – players who are posing for selfies on Instagram with adoring fans, or sending tweets thanking their generous vehicle sponsors – long before actually achieving much of anything in senior rugby. We then see many of these players, some years later, capitulating to those self-same Kiwi boys, both in Super Rugby and on the Test stage, showing the clear evidence of a lack of both rugby skills and mental strength relative to those kids whose path to the top has been that much harder.

If we look at youth structures across our provincial unions, we see that the richer ones (most notably the Bulls and WP) take this junior contracting story to a ridiculous extreme, throwing hefty sums of money at 30-40 new schoolboys (each) every year, thus adding further to the pool of “do it the easy way”, overly entitled, quasi-professional players that litter our rugby landscape. Because the pool is so big, it becomes harder for coaches at that level to do much meaningful, individual work to uplift skills or improve attitude and hence the “good work”, the foundation work at that crucial age that is vital to later success, ends up being heavily diluted.

The Sharks have long been a bit of a laughing stock in this regard, since they “only” contract around 10 new under 19 players each year. This model means they can never really compete in the under 19 or under 21 provincial competitions, but should, in theory, mean that they are able to give better attention and coaching to fewer youngsters. The much-maligned Academy, filled with aspiring stars whose parents actually pay for the privilege of their attendance, is intended to plug the gaps, but in recent years, there’s been a move away from this model. Senior coaches have felt that the junior contracted players don’t receive enough individualised attention, hence the introduction of a two-tier system that sees the contracted kids form an elite squad that actually has very little to do with the Academy at all.

I wonder if this approach doesn’t only serve to worsen the sense of complacency and entitlement that appears to bedevil so many of our young players? Wouldn’t it be better if all juniors, regardless of perceived talent, were forced to prove their worth week in and week out playing against their peers on the local club scene?

Trying to find a model that works well here is tricky, I’m sure, but while I used to feel that the Sharks Academy was an outdated concept that was holding the Sharks back, I now wonder whether the concept of “pay to play” might not actually work better in the long run. Whether it needs to remain a physical entity as it is today, with youngsters paying fees to attend, or should rather morph into a program that overseas the development of ALL youth rugby in the province, working together with clubs and schools, remains to be seen. Financial assistance from the Union should always be available to deserving players, but I must say I’d far rather see a model where all the kids in the province go straight to clubs and spend three years fighting tooth and nail to become one of the 10 or so awarded with a first professional contract each year.

What do you think? Is this something that could work?



134 Comments

  • Powerful piece

  • Comment 1, posted at 22.09.16 11:29:32 by KILLER SHARK Reply
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  • Interesting article and quite thought provoking. My 3 cents on the matter. After school a player has 2 perhaps 3 choices in order to follow a rugby career path. He can enroll at a Varsity that plays Varsity Cup/Shield rugby, he can enroll at a private college/academy or he can choose to wing it on his own at a club. The players that enroll at the Varsity and Private Institutions also turn out for the various clubs in KZN- well most do but not all. So how do we improve the situation. Well those boys enrolled at say UKZN need to only play for UKZN and not another club and that institution needs to have a fulltime rugby program daily that also caters for academics. So the UKZN team playing club rugby should be pretty damn strong. Then those enrolled at the Private institutions/Academy should be allocated to the various clubs and be required to play weekly for them unless injured. The Academy should like the Varsity have a fulltime rugby and academic program so that the boys learn the professional way. The contracted kids (no more than 15) should merely form part of either the Varsity or private Institution setup. The current u20 league in kzn is a bit of a joke…and thats a big problem

  • Comment 2, posted at 22.09.16 11:48:28 by SheldonK Reply

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  • Power piece well thought out,yes I agree cause the present set up the hell is definitely not working

  • Comment 3, posted at 22.09.16 12:11:04 by benji Reply
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  • Few simple but important things to take note:

    Rugby cannot sustain 1000 pro players (it is actually more than Craig states), it is literally impossible.

    80% (and sometimes more) of union funds are spent on salaries for players.

    Rugby will seize to exist if we continue.

    NZ only recognizes players in Super Rugby (and their national teams like Sevens) as professionals in the true word.

    We need to adopt is system where levels of competition is capped, and either fully amateur (pay-per-play or match fees) or semi-professional (annual salary cap).

    Irrespective of who you play for (a club, Varsity, whatever), U19 to U21 competitions must be fully amateur. It does not mean players are not looked after. Apart from match fees and win bonuses, players are part of high performance squads with access to gym’s, nutrition, programmes, etc which is paid for by the union.

    Senior rugby (Currie Cup) semi professional. Salaries are capped between R10 000 and R25 000 a month per player (can’t pay him less than R10K but not more than R25K).

    Super Rugby is fully professional but salaries also capped between R35 000 and R95 000. If that player is awarded a national contract on top of that he would be a top earner in the region of R150K to R500K.

    Player exodus?

    If overseas clubs want to invest in 18 year old laaities let them take the risk. With the pool in SA being much smaller (pro players – proven ability and talent), the ‘market’ for overseas clubs is also a lot smaller, and your pro’s earns in excess of R1m to R6m (because we can afford it).

  • Comment 4, posted at 22.09.16 12:12:03 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 4) : I quite like your concept of all players being ‘amateur’ until they get a senior contract. As you say young players can be ‘paid’ in ways that would benefit then in terms of gym and rehab fees etc. I do think it would result in a bit of a player exodus but thats where World Rugby needs to come on board and say that players can only represent the country of their birth (excluding players already capped).

  • Comment 5, posted at 22.09.16 12:16:42 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 4) : Thanks Morne! Always great getting your insight. Question. Can you see this happening and or are there people actively trying to make this happen?

  • Comment 6, posted at 22.09.16 12:20:55 by gregkaos Reply
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  • How about setting it up along the basis of the NFL system, not in it’s entirety. The players would thus have be sponsored by the Unions to be enrolled at a Varsity and from there if they do not make it they would at least have an education to rely on.

  • Comment 7, posted at 22.09.16 12:22:02 by durbsguy Reply

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  • @gregkaos (Comment 6) : Think its tough to shut the gate once the horse has bolted…

  • Comment 8, posted at 22.09.16 12:23:26 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 8) : Yup, hence why I’m asking if there are forces at work trying to fix it. Right now I’m rather despondent on the direction things are going, and I’ll take any scrap of hope! :)

  • Comment 9, posted at 22.09.16 12:27:39 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 9) : Eish if there is a glimmer of hope ill jump on that bandwagon. Just wonder who will tell all those contracted kids their cheques arent arriving at the end of the month haha

  • Comment 10, posted at 22.09.16 12:35:36 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 10) : I’ve no doubt The Hound would be happy to oblige! He could give them a bowl of cement at the same time to harden-the-***k-up.

  • Comment 11, posted at 22.09.16 12:39:45 by gregkaos Reply
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  • I do think that there need to be exceptional cases, of course. Curwn Bosch is an example, but those kinds of players come along maybe once in 3 years, not at the rate of 50 a year.

  • Comment 12, posted at 22.09.16 12:47:12 by robdylan Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 11) : :mrgreen:

  • Comment 13, posted at 22.09.16 12:47:49 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @gregkaos (Comment 6) :

    We do not have a choice actually. It will happen and there is movement towards this because everyone realises we are in kak (commercially sustainable models).

    @durbsguy (Comment 7) :

    We are looking at player movement from school to unions in this regard already – current problem is some unions have stronger/better universities than others, some have none.

    You might look at a two-tier system in this regard, unions with Super Rugby franchises and unions without (essentially professional unions and amateur unions) – the solution here is to manage player movement effectively so smaller unions are financially rewarded for producing professional players by the unions/franchises they move to in addition to receiving development grants from SARU (as they currently already do).

    Most importantly, this will only work if everyone adopts this process, so it needs to be a system implemented from SARU down.

  • Comment 14, posted at 22.09.16 12:48:02 by Morné Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 12) :

    Then they must offer Curwin a Super Rugby contract.

    What I did not mention is a Super Rugby squad cap would also need to be in place, franchises would be limited to the size of Super Rugby (professional) contracts they award.

  • Comment 15, posted at 22.09.16 12:49:50 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 14) : Cheers that is very good to know. Despite us been in deep doodoo, it’s encouraging to hear that there is movement towards this type of model.

  • Comment 16, posted at 22.09.16 12:54:55 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 14) : That is a relief. I realise that the Cape would end up with the best system. However, at PWC in the UK that finance degrees from UNISA is held in the same regard as UCT. So that should negate a few of the problems. Just need a few more Varsity Colleges around.

  • Comment 17, posted at 22.09.16 13:14:24 by durbsguy Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 15) : I think they pretty much did give him a “Super Rugby” level contract.

  • Comment 18, posted at 22.09.16 13:14:50 by robdylan Reply
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  • People are dreaming,the only thing holding young talent in this country are semi decent professional contracts,take those away limit them or fuck with them in any way ,you’ll only increase that overseas drain.
    We will become like the Pacific Islanders a place that breeds and exports rugby players,with only the ones unable to crack an overseas contract staying.
    Talent like Bosch,the twins,Marx,Thomas,Dylan Smith,all of whom are under 21 , would be long gone.

  • Comment 19, posted at 22.09.16 14:36:35 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 19) : Totally agree, you cannot go about it in this manner.

  • Comment 20, posted at 22.09.16 14:42:18 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @durbsguy (Comment 17) : Soon UNISA. or any distance learning university, will be the university of choice the way SA varsity students are torching everything around them.

  • Comment 21, posted at 22.09.16 14:44:42 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 19) : @Uli Boelie (Comment 20) : It will be interesting and no doubt a few fish will get through the net but overall I think it will add to a stronger, healthier, better paid pool of elite locally based players. How it will be implemented within the existing system will be the real challenge.

  • Comment 22, posted at 22.09.16 14:50:28 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 19) : What is keeping the young talent in NZ?

  • Comment 23, posted at 22.09.16 14:51:14 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 23) : The All Black jersey.

  • Comment 24, posted at 22.09.16 14:52:26 by The hound Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 23) : R10.33 to the Aussie Dollar, Knowing that if you play well you get selected on merit for higher teams, relatively unknown players in youth setups, and a different culture to sa players

  • Comment 25, posted at 22.09.16 15:01:16 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 22) : that model wont work. You can count on killing SA rugby once and for all if you do it this way. The current model is there to attract existing players to stay in the country. You forget that French agents are already looking at contracting local school boys at craven week, we already having to fight them off as it is to try and keep our best players here.

  • Comment 26, posted at 22.09.16 15:11:01 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 25) : Thanks for the reality check. :twisted:

  • Comment 27, posted at 22.09.16 15:11:46 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 27) : Least we know what we working against

  • Comment 28, posted at 22.09.16 15:14:56 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @The hound (Comment 24) : @SheldonK (Comment 25) : And I believe that a lot of the guys are playing for the Springbok jersey. Giving them tons of cash at a young age is counter productive IMO. As Rob said “overly entitled, quasi-professional players that litter our rugby landscape”
    vs
    “The equivalent schoolboy in New Zealand is sharing digs with three other players, surviving off a stipend”

    If a young player is exceptionally talented then they could get a SR contract from an earlier age.

    If they want the holy grail of playing for the Boks and earning top pay then you have to work your gat off to get there. If you’re chasing the big paycheque at 21, then by all means destroy your chances at playing for the Bok, go overseas, and dilute our competition in Europe. :grin:

  • Comment 29, posted at 22.09.16 15:17:34 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 29) : do it this way and there’s more money available to keep the Curwin Bosch’s in the country.

  • Comment 30, posted at 22.09.16 15:24:52 by robdylan Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 29) : If you quiz Sa players under the age of 21 i can guarantee you 98% of them will chose the money over the chance to perhaps one day play for the Boks. Just the way culture is in SA. The only reason Curwin Bosch came to the Sharks is because we offered more money…

  • Comment 31, posted at 22.09.16 15:29:33 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @robdylan (Comment 30) : I think what you guys are overlooking, is that these so called youngsters, are putting their bodies on the line every single time they walk out onto that field. A certain amount of security is needed, this is rugby and it is a game where your life can change in an instant. I think where we are going wrong, is that the boys are being contracted at the age of 16 – hence, fuck school, why do i need good marks, i am going to be a pro rugby player. Personally, i feel the boys should only be allowed to be contracted after Craven Week. They only get 2 year contracts initially which just gives them a bit of stability. Without this stability, what happens when the player is injured? No pay? That will not work.

  • Comment 32, posted at 22.09.16 15:32:08 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 31) : I can almost tell you that for a fact – politics in this Country has ruined the pride of wearing a Bok jersey for one, secondly, like football, rugby is moving on and players want to be paid big bucks while they still to play – as I said before, this is a barbaric sport that is short lived, they need to make a living and be sustainable from 30 odd onwards – not easy.

  • Comment 33, posted at 22.09.16 15:34:13 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @gregkaos (Comment 23) : @The hound (Comment 24) : @SheldonK (Comment 25) : maybe but also think the fact that 1 Euro = 1.5 NZ $ were as 1 Euro = R15. So if a NZ player move to Europe for the same amount of money (e.g 1 mil NZ $ to 1 mil Euro) his salary will only increase by 50% (1.5 mil NZ $). If a SA player move to Europe that salary with jump to R15 mil or 15 times what he earned in SA!!! Do think it make a great big difference especially if you can play 3-5 years for that increased salary!!! R 5 mil playing in SA for 5 years or R 75 mil playing in Europe?!?!?!

  • Comment 34, posted at 22.09.16 15:36:06 by JD Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 33) : Yeh i know what you mean. It is a different culture in NZ though, not as materialistic…they quite happy to live the comfy life without luxury. SA players from 18 are in it for the money…any of them that tell you otherwise are lying

  • Comment 35, posted at 22.09.16 15:37:18 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @JD (Comment 34) : Exactly…its about the moola

  • Comment 36, posted at 22.09.16 15:38:36 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 31) : @Vonno13 (Comment 33) : think there should be a salary cap on what these youngsters can be contracted for. As for when players can be signed I would even go as far as saying that they must first finish school before they can be signed. There’s so much happening from July in your matric year that the distraction of pro rugby is not needed to add to that. From 1 December there’s still plenty of time for them to sign and join the side they want to before the rugby season start in February.

  • Comment 37, posted at 22.09.16 15:43:30 by JD Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 35) : But can any of us blame them for that? in the past it was amateur rugby, the guys generally has degrees and life/money outside of rugby. This is not possible anymore, if you are a rugby player, you simply have no time to also study – meaning, rugby is your livelihood and you need to earn as much as you can while you can. NZ are just strange, they are obsessed with rugby and anyone who has been there knows, they LOVE rugby more than we do – is really is a way of life and it is their pride. Yes we love rugby, but not to the same degree, they have massive loyalty and their sole goal is the Black Jersey.

  • Comment 38, posted at 22.09.16 15:44:42 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 36) : come on boet if you can go and do the same work in another country for 15 times more will you really stay where you are now?!?!?! Any way it’s how you personally raised you children and not if you live in SA or NZ that determine how your children will feel about work and money!!!

  • Comment 39, posted at 22.09.16 15:50:01 by JD Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 38) : I think we need to think of it this way…in every other profession kids leave school with the aim of making as much money as possible via studying then working or working straight out of school but either way the aim is make money and as much as possible. So why should it be different for rugby players?

  • Comment 40, posted at 22.09.16 15:53:37 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @JD (Comment 39) : Oh look dont get me wrong im not judging at all. In an instant id take the job that offers the best money under good conditions. I see professional rugby players just like any other profession

  • Comment 41, posted at 22.09.16 15:56:53 by SheldonK Reply

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  • I think there’s a bit of missing the point going on here.

    Face facts – SA contracts are already hopelessly un-competitive compared to what can be earned overseas. The way to counter this threat is to offer fewer, better contracts to a core group of top players. Throwing a static sum of money at an ever-increasing group of junior players in the hope that somehow that will translate to Test success is just stupid. Accept that the global economy is what it is and find a way to make it work for you.

    That’s what New Zealand does. They may have a stronger currency than SA does but their overall economy is weaker. They find a way to make it work, though.

  • Comment 42, posted at 22.09.16 15:58:29 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 12) : Not too many of the youngsters coming straight out of school in SA are getting contracts to the values being bandied about by Craig Ray, and not too many of the youngsters going over seas are earning big money either. Overseas some of the players have to pay their own annual medical fees, affiliation to their Rugby Union, no match fees, don’t have sponsorships (boots, cars etc.) So the preconceived idea that youngsters are leaving purely for the Euro and Pound is a little misguided.

  • Comment 43, posted at 22.09.16 15:59:28 by Julesgr8ter Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 40) : Because it is completely different – as I said, they are not able to go from school to Uni to get the education they need – therefore they need to be compensated properly at a young age, their careers are generally only 10 years long, if they lucky. The other kids that go to Uni are setting a life long platform, a proper career which will carry them through to their 50′s, 60′s etc – rugby is different, if you are still playing professionally at 30, you are extremely lucky. So now you 30 and can’t play rugga anymore, what do you fall back on with no degree? The 30 year olds who have been to Uni, have 9 or so years more experience than you in any prospective career and a degree… So yes, I have no issue with young players being paid – I do not think anyone on here understands the pressure they go through on a daily basis, always easy to talk crap on a forum, as if we know anything about being a pro sportsman.

  • Comment 44, posted at 22.09.16 15:59:31 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @Julesgr8ter (Comment 43) : I agree with you. I don’t think we need be too concerned about a mass exodus of young players. To me, there are some that are going, but the real concern is the number of older, proven players that are turning their back on SA and the Springboks.

    I agree that Craig’s R750k a year is ridiculous, but it’s not really about those big figures. It’s about the sheer number of youngsters that are earning R100k a pop.

  • Comment 45, posted at 22.09.16 16:08:06 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 44) : I think u misunderstand my point- im on the same page as you and fully get it. In any profession in SA you could lose your job tomorrow (rugby the risk is just higher). So you have to make as much money as you can while you can. Simple as that. I think whats this article and guys like Rob and Morne are saying is that all good and well to pay kids these bucks but where is the accountability and value in return? On face value at the Sharks there was no value from the u19s and u21s this year so their contracts should be cancelled then.

  • Comment 46, posted at 22.09.16 16:08:38 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 44) : is the current system working, though?

  • Comment 47, posted at 22.09.16 16:15:48 by robdylan Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 46) : Just one example C.J Stander almost certainly the future Bok captain,you do not get a better prospect straight out of school than him,he didn’t even stick around long enough to become a Blue Bull.
    Bok jersey meant nothing to him,there is the problem,ask yourself why.

  • Comment 48, posted at 22.09.16 16:22:31 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 48) : He took the option that was the best for him in terms of current working conditions, future prospects and sustainability. Smart decision from a young man

  • Comment 49, posted at 22.09.16 16:24:23 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 46) : What, in your opinion, is the average U19 or U21 player earning at the Sharks to warrant the expected ‘accountability and return?’ Because remember that only 10 players are contracted at the Sharks per year and some of those contracted players are already playing SupeRugby – so how many of them are actually contracted anyway – or at least contracted to anywhere near the values being spoken about?

  • Comment 50, posted at 22.09.16 16:25:10 by Julesgr8ter Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 46) : But you have to look at how many players playing for the u19s and u21 are actually contracted, not all of them have contracts and many of them will be gone this year. Are you saying that based on a poor season, every player should have his contact cancelled? I presume you are not saying that as it would be ridiculous. There are 5-7 players in the u21 side who will become house hold names, I have mentioned them many times before and will not do so again – now this only makes up half the starting line up and only 30% of the entire match day squad. Watching the u21 side this year compared to last year, it was evident that the Sharks missed the likes of R Gouws and Inno – your 9 and 10 who simply can’t be replaced, added to that the crazy injuries and the team is buggered. The Unions are not stupid and do have budgets to adhere to, if you are not good enough you will eventually be told to go. But you must remember, depth is also needed. You often mention players like Kleynhans and Majola, but let me tell you this, the Sharks would be fucked right now without them there – they are playing a part for the greater good of the squad. We can’t simply throw players away, there needs to be a certain amount of depth and competition for places in the team

  • Comment 51, posted at 22.09.16 16:27:15 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 49) : Look at least SARU closed one door there,now if you represented SA at junior level you are ineligible to play for another country.Not so in his day.
    That ties the likes of the twins into this country,wonder how long it is till the first red blooded Afrikaans boy refuse a place in the age group national team,because it will jeopardise his Irish,Scottish,English,French career

  • Comment 52, posted at 22.09.16 16:31:40 by The hound Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 47) : You have to define working? Are we talking about the Sharks or Bok rugby in general? If we are talking Bok Rugby, generally, we are 2nd in the World only behind the formidable All Blacks, the most successful team of all time, no disgrace there, they simply better and more talented than us, end of story. Right now, the Boks are buggered, but let us be honest here, this has a lot to do with behind the scenes shenanigans. We have the shittest coaching setup ever assembled for a national side – our coaching staff would not be considered adequate for a Super Rugby franchise, never mind the Boks. I think things on the players side is ok, but I would find it difficult listening to Stick about how to play rugby, or Jean on how to defend, when they have coached at minor levels. The players probably have little to no respect for these type of coaches. Now Mitchell might be a bit harsh, but he demands respect and you can clearly see Steve Hansen is exactly the same.- any coach who drops Savea means business, he is setting a precedent for the other players. Anyway, in terms of contracting, I think it needs to stay as is otherwise our rugby will suffer, you can’t just contract a few players, I do not believe this will work at all, rugby has moved forward and the guys will just get up and leave. Imagine we had let the likes of Duane go, he was ok when he was young, nothing special, some players take time to develop and we need to remember that.

  • Comment 53, posted at 22.09.16 16:36:59 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @Julesgr8ter (Comment 50) : u21, you generally looking at 25k a month plus match fee, if you are rated. It can however be far less or far more, but the general amount is around 25k ( junior contract ) senior contract 30k, plus match fees, and up

  • Comment 54, posted at 22.09.16 16:39:43 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 47) : no it’s not. What I personally would implement is a salary cap on what junior player can be paid (that include sponsorships, cars, etc) as well as limiting the total of players that each union can contract (that is junior and senior players).
    Unfortunately I can’t see the smaller unions that run SA rugby vote to deprofessionalise themself. By limiting each team to say 5 under 19 contracts at least the number will change to only 70 in the country. This also leaves room to contract players like Bosch and co without breaking the bank like now!

  • Comment 55, posted at 22.09.16 16:41:31 by JD Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 51) : bear in mind, we’re not really talking about the Sharks in this article. The Sharks, to my mind, have the balance mostly right in terms of the money they spend on the juniors. I’m advocating for all other unions to spend less.

  • Comment 56, posted at 22.09.16 16:43:45 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 53) : wow. I’m not sure how you can watch the Boks play and conclude that we don’t have an issue with player skillset.

  • Comment 57, posted at 22.09.16 16:45:13 by robdylan Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 55) : And this is going to achieve what?
    All its going to do is hasten the top quality players out of the country.
    These are the guys you need to keep and the only way to keep them is by making certain that staying is better than leaving.

  • Comment 58, posted at 22.09.16 16:46:21 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 52) : not an Afrikaans youngster but Tim Swiel declined the offer to play for SA under 20′s because of this. Think in future unfortunately other will follow!!!

  • Comment 59, posted at 22.09.16 16:46:59 by JD Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 58) : geez how many youngsters do you want to keep? I personally think contracting 70 odd under 19 players in the country per year is probably going to allow you to keep most top quality players. It will also allow unions to trim their player salary bills allowing them more money to use to keep top senior players.

  • Comment 60, posted at 22.09.16 16:50:54 by JD Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 54) : If contracted, yes, but very few of the current U21′s are contracted to that extent.

  • Comment 61, posted at 22.09.16 16:54:12 by Julesgr8ter Reply
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  • Here’s the kicker in case you guys missed it from Morne.

    “Rugby will cease* to exist if we continue.”

    “We do not have a choice actually. It will happen and there is movement towards this because everyone realises we are in kak (commercially sustainable models).”

  • Comment 62, posted at 22.09.16 16:57:44 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 14) : @gregkaos (Comment 62) : the problem is a lot of the time the administrators that should ensure the well being of the sport is only concerned with the well being of their own bank balance! Another problem is the way SARU works with the smaller unions “running the show” due to their greater numbers!

  • Comment 63, posted at 22.09.16 17:13:58 by JD Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 51) : Fair point about the Sharks being in the dwang if it wasn’t for Majola, Kleynhans etc. But it does also beg the question, if the Sharks had not clung to Majola, Kleynhans, Heimar Williams etc., would they not possibly then have had the means to retain Marcel Coetzee and maybe one or two others?

    I don’t pretend to have the answer to that one, just playing devil’s advocate for the sake of debate.

  • Comment 64, posted at 22.09.16 17:35:32 by Culling Song Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 64) : @Vonno13 (Comment 51) : yes the unions must ensure that they contract the correct player within their budget. That however is not as easy as it sounds as players grow and develop at different rates. Then add to that players click or clash with a coach (and/or team environment) and also injuries and it can happen that a player performs one year and then just fall away the next. Losing players is part of live and there will always be players like Redelinghuys that was let go and “suddenly” performs at the new team and guys that you keep that just never live up to their potential. Just hope your team get it right more often than wrong is the best we can do!

  • Comment 65, posted at 22.09.16 20:16:05 by JD Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 57) : Rob, have we all played the game? How does Jantjies go from a top player to absolute shite? Forget this, test rugby is on another level bullshit, yes it is a slight step up, but the obvious point here is coaching. When Jantjies played for the Stormers he was dog shit, who was coach? How is it, that the Lions can be so good in the Super Rugby competition, but then we have a go at player skill set. The players can play if allowed the freedom to make their own choices. Thes best 12 in the country is currently playing CC, J Janse Van Rensburg, he is quality and should be wearing a bok jersey. The Boks skill set looks kak because the players are confused out there, they do not know what to do. So when Elton gets the ball, his natural instinct is to attack, but he know AC wants position and territory, this fucks a player up in so many ways, don’t for one second think Pat will improve this. Then we have Kriek, a fullback, playing centre, a fly half playing fullback and a scrummie playing wing, naturally, they wil look at of place. This is all a coaching mentality, not the players fucking around, it is the coaches who are taking the piss

  • Comment 66, posted at 22.09.16 21:04:38 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 64) : I do not think so no. Marcel is a young man who has been a brilliant Bok but wants bucks. Why did Mccaw neve leave the All Blacks? Pride! Our players could not give a shit, chasing the buck, and I guess in this country, fair enough, they are not going to be looked after anyway

  • Comment 67, posted at 22.09.16 21:07:01 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @Vonno13 (Comment 66) : yes the Lions were good but it’s not as if they dominated the competition! Why did they lose twice against the Canes? Maybe because the Canes put a lot of pressure on their scrum/forwards so backs did not get the quality ball to shine with like the did against the other teams. Can’t remember but how did Far and Janties play in the final? If my memory is correct Jantjies did not have a great final?
    Personally I think a lot of the problems currently with 8-9-10 is that the Bok scrum/forwards is under huge pressure and going backwards this in turn puts huge pressure onto 8-9-10 so they will struggle to be as effective as what they were behind the dominant Lions forwards!

  • Comment 68, posted at 22.09.16 21:24:20 by JD Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 67) : or maybe because Mccaw could only earn 1.5 times more playing in Europe than in NZ were as Marcell can earn 15 time more playing in Europe than is SA! Having your currency at 1.5 NZ$ to the Euro makes it a lot easier and cheaper to counter an offer from abroad than R15 to the Euro!

  • Comment 69, posted at 22.09.16 21:30:07 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 68) : but then it is the tight 5 we should be talking about and not 9 and 10. There is no 9 and 10 in world rugby who looks good if their forwards are going backwards, it means you are constantly playing on the Blackfoot with no momentum.

  • Comment 70, posted at 23.09.16 07:50:22 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • Backfoot

  • Comment 71, posted at 23.09.16 07:51:10 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @Vonno13 (Comment 67) : What do you expect with all the political crap happening on a daily basis? Our top players are loosing their positions because of their color. who would want to put up with all the BS, when its easier to play overseas and make so good cash?

  • Comment 72, posted at 23.09.16 08:14:10 by Uli Boelie Reply
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  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 72) : I think you are only partially right but the biggest factor is the increased physicality of the game.If you going to be putting your body through such a daily beating then you might as well do it for the most money on offer.
    When you look at the horrific injuries some of these guys suffer so early in their careers surely it makes sense that you seek the ultimate compensation for it.
    Every time these guys run out onto the field they could be doing it for the last time
    Pat Lambie is only 25 and whats definite is his next injury will end his career how can anyone begrudge him making the most of that window.
    He should have already done that,because I am certain if you put his earnings next to Brad Barritt’s at the same age,he’s earned a pittance in comparison.

  • Comment 73, posted at 23.09.16 08:33:25 by The hound Reply
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  • Hi guys, just want to share this : http://www.supersport.com/rugby/super-rugby/news/160923/NZ_outvoted_to_change_Super_Rugby

    The little hope we had of a format change seems to be gone, and our unions voted for it! :evil:

  • Comment 74, posted at 23.09.16 08:44:37 by Quintin Reply

    QuintinSuper Rugby player
     
  • @The hound (Comment 73) : Yes I agree, they have to make their money in a high risk environment which could see them lose all/most of their income with a career ending injury, but the pride in playing for the Boks is also declining and the political interference with their careers is definitely a factor in their decisions as well. You can add to that, going to live in a 1st world country vs. what we are dealing with here and all the things attached to it.

  • Comment 75, posted at 23.09.16 08:53:28 by Quintin Reply

    QuintinSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Julesgr8ter (Comment 50) : @Vonno13 (Comment 53) : Look i dont know who is contracted and who isnt and for what amounts etc. But i know these guys are being paid. So my question was are we getting value for that money, irrespective of the money? Morne put the point forward that junior rugby should be amateur until they receive senior contracts. Vonno said these guys are professionals that need to be paid for what they do. So taking the best of both is what my point was…yes pay the guys but then are we just shelling out money without any return? The Sharks u19s and u21s have been shocking, absolutely shocking in terms of results in the last few years, excuses aside those are the facts. So again i ask are we getting value from these professionals or are we paying for amateur performances? Im sure we can all agree that the amount the Union spends on players cannot be sustain especially if we look at how many people come to watch a game at Kings park. And its definitely not the u19s and u21s putting bums on seats.

  • Comment 76, posted at 23.09.16 08:55:28 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Quintin (Comment 75) : We live in a totally different world to the one I grew up in.the concept of National teams is one that belonged the old world,
    Sport has crossed thru to the other side,the leading sport in the world ,soccer has already done this.Club has already eclipsed country
    Club is multi national with top teams in England often not fielding one Englishman.
    There are more Man U fans in China than in Manchester.
    Club pays a shit load more than country and is more important in the player’s list of priorities.
    Rugby is fast going the same way we watch it on T.V with fewer and fewer people watching in the stadium
    TV networks are becoming stronger influencers in the game everyday,
    Organisations like SARU are becoming less influential and more impotent everyday.
    For the game to survive the next ten years it needs to become a global sport.

  • Comment 77, posted at 23.09.16 09:15:40 by The hound Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 76) : This is what I am saying to you, hardly any of the youngsters are contracted, a lot of them are making little to nothing and trying to live off the match fee – how do they get enough nutrition in their bodies to survive in a sport like rugby, when they hardly have money. These are also kids who do not know what a budget smells like. If you want the Juniors to be successful, then your argument has to sway the other way – contract 30-50 players and spend even more money. The junior ranks mean nothing, it is a window for the youngsters to see if they have what it takes to step up, that is all. The Sharks contract far less players than the Bulls and WP and naturally, the Sharks juniors suffer in the CC as a result, if they sustain injuries to their top players, they are fucked, because all of a sudden, you get a young amateur player coming in – at WP and Bulls, this is not the case, they have so much depth – 2 much in fact. So, if we look at the u21 CONTRACTED PLAYERS from 2014 – Twins, T Du Toit, H Andrews, I Radebe – all of them have now made the step. Then we look at Schramm, J Du Toit, M Louw – I can tell you this right now, all 3 will play senior rugby and not only will they play senior rugby, they will be serious players – so that says to me that the Sharks have it spot on and have got a brilliant return – if fully fit and all playing together, that gives you a very strong side that can take Sharks rugby forward.

  • Comment 78, posted at 23.09.16 09:28:48 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @Vonno13 (Comment 78) : Well that is what my point was- are we getting value from what we are paying…you say yes we are. If the u19s and u21s are only receiving a nominal match fee then thats fine as they arent fulltime professionals. You say how can they afford stuff- well like anyone with a part time job they need to supplement income through coaching/waiter etc. They cant expect professional pay for amateur work. I was just using the Sharks as an example and we contract the least amount…far too much money is being spent on kids in this country and not enough to attract and retain the top talent. Top young players will continue to leave this country in search of betetr opportunities and there is bugger all that will change that. Best we can do is try to retain as much top talent as possible…dont waste money on kids that leave after 5yrs when they 23 and in their prime

  • Comment 79, posted at 23.09.16 09:36:44 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @The hound (Comment 77) : I agree that it has to go global. It’s working very good for soccer as even smaller countries players are being scouted by some of the biggest clubs in the world where those players receive top notch coaching and training facilities to improve and be a true professional. On top of that they play in some of the most competitive matches there are available in the game week in week out in those leagues. It’s a huge benefit to the game and those players as it helps the smaller countries to be more competitive with the likes of Spain, France, Germany etc. as some their players are competing with or playing alongside players from those countries they are competing with at their respective clubs. It takes the game to another level as there is no clear international dominance by a country(like NZ rugby atm) because it’s more competitive. Rugby still has a long way to go to get there, but that is definitely the way I would like the sport to go as it will benefit the game as a whole tremendously.

  • Comment 80, posted at 23.09.16 09:54:46 by Quintin Reply

    QuintinSuper Rugby player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 79) : I agree with you a 100% on this. We aren’t seeing a proper ROI from these youngsters. I personally have 6 friends that played for the U19/20/21 level at a big union and names that I won’t mention(wasn’t the Sharks) a couple of years ago. I could see they weren’t that interested in making it further than that, they were there for the money at the moment. And as of now, only one of them is still playing and he left for England a couple of weeks ago to play there, the rest are working, some of them still driving the cars they bought with that money they made from junior levels. I’m not generalizing at all, I know not everyone is like that, I’m just sharing my personal experience with it.

  • Comment 81, posted at 23.09.16 10:03:15 by Quintin Reply

    QuintinSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 72) : um…. come on, don’t make me say it, please?

  • Comment 82, posted at 23.09.16 10:08:31 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 82) : Just dont say it in black font :mrgreen:

  • Comment 83, posted at 23.09.16 10:10:03 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • Our school system spits out close to a 1000 ‘talented’ rugby players every single year if you consider the lads playing in Craven Week and Academy week and those that just missed out.

    We have two domestic competitions, the Currie Cup Qualifiers (old Vodacom Cup) and the Currie Cup where the same players play in both of them.

    Provided a squad is ideally 35-man strong the ‘spots’ up for grabs is around 500 if all 14 unions are considered.

    So we have 500 contracts up for grabs in what is considered your senior professional domestic circuit.

    Out of the 500 contracts up for grabs for domestic competitions only 200 will get a shot at Super Rugby, elite professional contracts.

    Out of that 200 players only a quarter, around 50, will be considered in a 4-year cycle to be good enough for international rugby.

    A rough calculation tells me that out of the 1000 ‘talented’ kids we pump into senior rugby every year, only 1 out of every 20 kids will become Springboks, and only 1 in 5 will get a Super Rugby contract.

    My science teacher in school said something to me one day in class, if it was up to her, she would only teach the 5% of 90%+ average kids in school not giving a damn about the 95% that is left behind or not as ‘good’ and the 90%’ters. It gives that 5% the best chance to become the world’s top physicists, astronomers, engineers, etc.

    Yet in SA in rugby we go out of our way to contract just about every single Craven Week player, playing a numbers game (strengths in numbers) with the hope most of those come good. Not realising for every 5 players you contract, only 1 will show a long term ROI (Super Rugby) for the union, and only 1 in 20 an ROI from a national perspective.

    The numbers game as stated above costs a lot of money, more than we have, and as my science teacher would say, I am neglecting (and losing) those 5% of individuals (who are not properly developed or leave overseas) because I have to share my resources between them and hundreds of other souls who will simply never be good enough.

  • Comment 84, posted at 23.09.16 10:10:43 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 84) : Great post

  • Comment 85, posted at 23.09.16 10:13:12 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Morné (Comment 84) : @SheldonK (Comment 85) : The problem is Morne, this is not going to change, rugby is now professional and that is the way it is. Have you ever lived abroad, specifically England? The boys are scouted at the age of 10, it is quite scary to be honest. Obviously I get your point, but rugby has moved on far too much. What I am not understanding Sheldon, is that the Sharks pay less than the other Big Unions and recruit less, so based on your argument, they are doing the right thing..? But we then can’t expect great performances in the junior ranks? In terms of being a waiter etc – that is just not an option Sheldon, the guys are physically knackered at night and obviously can’t have a job during the day, as they practice twice a day. So it is a tough situation I am afraid.

  • Comment 86, posted at 23.09.16 10:23:39 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 83) : fokken GEELKART vir jou!

  • Comment 87, posted at 23.09.16 10:29:30 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 84) : ok, so now to bring it back to a subject that I care about…. would you agree that, on balance, the Sharks are closer to the right answer here than the Bulls and WP are?

    The point of this article was really not to bash our own youth structures that much, but some have interpreted it that way

  • Comment 88, posted at 23.09.16 10:31:51 by robdylan Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 83) : @robdylan (Comment 87) : As ek jy was sou ek net se sorry oom, sal nie weer nie oom!

  • Comment 89, posted at 23.09.16 10:33:55 by Quintin Reply

    QuintinSuper Rugby player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 87) : :mrgreen:

  • Comment 90, posted at 23.09.16 10:43:45 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • Seriously how many of the Sharks Super rugby team came thru the youth structure,and secondly who gives a shit,where they came from.

  • Comment 91, posted at 23.09.16 10:47:29 by The hound Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 86) :

    It is not like SARU or the unions don’t have HP programmes in place. We also scout, recruit, sign legally binding documents, and have personal player intervention programmes running from U15. You would be silly not to.

    Talented kids are well taken care of believe me. A lot of time, effort and money is spent on them.

    The argument above is about having over 1000 so-called pro’s running around in this country where we only should have around 200 on elite pro contracts.

    Our (including unions) resources are stretched beyond its scope trying to accommodate everyone and this has a direct effect on the quality we produce not only for players but coaches too. We are diversifying ourselves into bankruptcy because we are so desperate to find a place for every individual that can catch a ball with confidence.

    We need to re-define elite because the one thing Craig is 100% correct on is that every single kid playing in Craven Week thinks he is already a superstar entitled to an gold paved road to professionalism.

    Rugby in this country needs a serious culture shock.

  • Comment 92, posted at 23.09.16 10:49:55 by Morné Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 88) : I think the Bulls and WP are ridiculous, they have far too many players at u19 and u21 level, it is stupid! I think what could perhaps be done, is to cap how many players a specific union is allowed to buy/contract? So yes, the players will get less at say the Cheetahs, Sharks and Lions that at WP or Bulls, but they have a far greater chance of actually getting game time. Rob, I think the Sharks have done well with regards to conserving money in the junior ranks and I think focusing on a small group of individuals, as they have done, will pay fruit in the next few years – provided the lighties do not pack up and leave for Europe :cry:

  • Comment 93, posted at 23.09.16 10:52:47 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 88) :

    I spent a couple of days with the Sharks last week (as I have with every union in the last 3 weeks), and they are definitely on the right track.

    The focus has shifted to culture and quality rather than quantity. There is a risk with that, in that they removed themselves from the market so to speak where the perceived best young talent will end up with the unions willing to spend millions on them.

    For my money, the unions that adopts a more conservative contracting approach will be the ones that will get ahead when the crunch really hits. It takes time to establish a new development and recruitment model and the sooner you start the better.

  • Comment 94, posted at 23.09.16 10:53:57 by Morné Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 92) : The only Unions doing this, are the Bulls and WP. The Sharks are recruiting few players in the juniors, so I am not following the argument? If the Unions are in that much shit, then they must stop recruiting so many players, simple. But said player will move, social media gives them a platform to show their talents to the remainder of the world. I get the just of what you are saying, but it is not going to change, in fact, it will only get worse. How would you fix the problem? We also have to bear in mind these kids have parents and I for one, would insure that if my child is not getting paid as a professional and only match fees, he would have to go to Uni – but then again, as a pro, where do they get the time to go to uni? They have no time to themselves, it is just training, training, training.

  • Comment 95, posted at 23.09.16 10:59:42 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @Morné (Comment 92) : I’d say that from the time HM’s Boks were beaten by Eddie Jones’s Japanese team and defeated by Argentina in Durban,to the wonderful run of AC Boks , Rugby in this country has had a serious culture shock.

  • Comment 96, posted at 23.09.16 11:00:29 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 96) : we’ve had a shock, but I’m not convinced that our reaction to it is necessarily what you could call a culture change.

    From the evidence I’ve seen, all we’re doing is moaning and blaming others.

  • Comment 97, posted at 23.09.16 11:11:30 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Vonno13 (Comment 95) :

    We don’t recruit cleverly, that is a fact, and that is what needs to change. It is not that easy for a kid to move to Europe and get a gig as a pro player, it is damn difficult and for every success story I can share 4 or 5 that didn’t make it and came back home trying to find jobs.

    It was mentioned above and the one way we can start being clever about this is the education component, rather than recruit a kid that just trains and trains and trains, recruit a kid on a scholarship, pay for his Varsity or College (which is much less than some of these contracts) which automatically puts him in your structures for at least 3 years (failing which if he moves he or his parents are liable for fees).

    Financial institutions holds many students at ransom for years for study loans and this is one way unions can invest in players long term.

    As a parent myself, if my kid is talented in rugby and some union is willing to pay for his education while helping with his sport development his ass is going there, not some piss-trip in Europe.

    The actual contracts themselves need to be revisited, and some are already looking at that. Cost to company and development fees will soon form part of contract agreements, meaning there is a liability in the case of a player just packing up and leaving. This is a norm in general industry already.

    By age 22/23, if this kid is good enough, throw the money at him that he deserves and that competes with international wage bills – this is currently around 8 to 12 mil on average for the very best in the world.

  • Comment 98, posted at 23.09.16 11:15:03 by Morné Reply
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    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @The hound (Comment 96) :

    Haha.

  • Comment 99, posted at 23.09.16 11:15:20 by Morné Reply
    Author
    MornéTeam captain
     
  • @Vonno13 (Comment 95) : Well Pat, Bismarck, Lwasi, Tendai all have various degrees & diplomas. I don’t have info on the others except for the obvious Jannie… qualified and practicing doctor + 70 Bok caps, 150 odd caps Sharks, 69 for Cheetahs.

  • Comment 100, posted at 23.09.16 11:23:57 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 98) : Brilliant and I would have it that way!! But then it needs to actually happen – regarding paying for the kids education. Only issue, is that places like Durban are a bit buggered, as we do not have a great Uni. If the kids Uni bills are being funded while he plays, then I will totally back your system, ie – pay as you play. But I just do not know if this will actually happen?

  • Comment 101, posted at 23.09.16 11:31:01 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @Morné (Comment 98) : This! “if my kid is talented in rugby and some union is willing to pay for his education while helping with his sport development his ass is going there”

  • Comment 102, posted at 23.09.16 11:32:20 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 100) : That is far and few between – Jannie comes from my era, although still young, contracts were far different in the early 2000′s – we all had the opportunity to study, in fact, that is pretty much what we got, free education and match fees – Like Morne is talking about, that is how it worked in the early 2000′s, unless you were D Hougaard!!!

  • Comment 103, posted at 23.09.16 11:33:59 by Vonno13 Reply
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 97) : What we talking about here is bullshit,we shouldn’t be concerned with the guys who don’t make it,or concerned with the guys like Duanne,The Duplessis brothers Frans Steyn,they are chasing money in the twilight of their careers and we have got as much out of them as they have taken from us..you can add Habbanna,JPP,Willie le Roux.
    The guys we should be worrying about are the C.J Standers of this world,him that long haired blond du Plessis,the big Bulls lock think his name is Willems,
    the list is long,A Grade players who should have been in the Bok squad now.
    That is the reason why our rugby will get weaker the cream of the crop will leave before we have any benefit from them.
    What SARU should be doing if they have any thoughts about their own survival is working on ways to retain that talent.

  • Comment 104, posted at 23.09.16 11:39:07 by The hound Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 102) : Exactly! And thats where i believe the focus should be. Educate these guys because lord knows we need smarter players

  • Comment 105, posted at 23.09.16 11:42:59 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 105) : Do you think Ernie El’s father regrets the fact that Ernie never passed matric,or that Jaques Kallis cries himself sleep at night remembering the time he actually scored zero on a metric paper,

  • Comment 106, posted at 23.09.16 11:48:19 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 106) : maybe Jacques would have done better with an imperial paper?

  • Comment 107, posted at 23.09.16 12:00:30 by robdylan Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 102) : @Morné (Comment 98) : Haha actually in this hypothetical scenario, I would like to see him try argue against it. I wouldn’t even have to do anything. His mother would just start counting down from 10 and by 6 or 7 he would be getting ready to go there. :mrgreen:

  • Comment 108, posted at 23.09.16 12:05:26 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 107) : He would have fucked that up as well ;-)

  • Comment 109, posted at 23.09.16 12:07:01 by The hound Reply
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  • Just trying to imagine what Coenie,Guthro,Bakkies and Dean Greyling would have studied at Uni.

  • Comment 110, posted at 23.09.16 12:10:35 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 106) : The exception doesnt prove the rule..contrary to what majority of people in SA think. How many Els’s and Kallis’s are there in SA ? Those two are 1 in a generation…cant use them as a rule.

  • Comment 111, posted at 23.09.16 12:30:19 by SheldonK Reply

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  • There are some very good research papers on the psychological and mutually complementary benefits of managing education & sport for an elite sportsman.
    Things such as intellectual stimulation accompanying physical challenges, sense of balance in ones life, feeling of security with the “safety net”. I would also add that an elite player with formal education is less likely to chase a paycheck than the ones without.

  • Comment 112, posted at 23.09.16 12:35:49 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 110) : Gurthro did Law at Uni of Free state. Not sure what Coenie did but also attended Free state uni. Got nothing on Bakkies or Dean.

  • Comment 113, posted at 23.09.16 12:57:29 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 113) : I bow to your superior knowledge,please don’t shatter my sanity by telling me that Dean Greyling is an actuary

  • Comment 114, posted at 23.09.16 13:02:14 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 114) : haha just google. Looking at wiki…dean has high school only. BUT his first name is actually MacGuyver!?!

  • Comment 115, posted at 23.09.16 13:10:00 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 110) : Bakkies, is actually not as dumb as he looks like, he was with us in top 10 school academic performers from primary school, at school his parents and mine implemented that if we don’t perform in school there is no rugby, cricket or athletics

  • Comment 116, posted at 23.09.16 13:11:40 by Henkb Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 115) : Shit that is funny, that really is his name, must have been the one sperm that swam and swam,and his nock name is wors

  • Comment 117, posted at 23.09.16 13:14:54 by The hound Reply
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  • @Henkb (Comment 116) : Friend Bakkies is my all time favourite rugby player,all time and I have been watching rugby since 1957.

  • Comment 118, posted at 23.09.16 13:16:14 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 118) : No just saying, he is actually very clever, but there is a reason that I have cheered for him, whenever he plays, although it might have been in blue some times, and against us the Sharks at some times

  • Comment 119, posted at 23.09.16 13:18:40 by Henkb Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 117) : I am genuinely perplexed that hasn’t made its way into common knowledge. If I was a commentator with this info I’d only ever address him as MacGuyver.

  • Comment 120, posted at 23.09.16 13:20:53 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 120) : ok wait… Unless he expressly forbade me from using it.

  • Comment 121, posted at 23.09.16 13:27:27 by gregkaos Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 121) : Would u be scared of him?

  • Comment 122, posted at 23.09.16 13:30:53 by Henkb Reply
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  • @Henkb (Comment 122) : depends on what running shoes I’m wearing :)

  • Comment 123, posted at 23.09.16 13:41:17 by gregkaos Reply
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  • My view is: How many players sa rugby can sustain is imo all about the economic situation. How many players in sa are good enough to play pro rugby? Would only like to answer that question once every -every- primary and high school in sa plays rugby. Last I heard was that 97% of kzn schools do not play rugby. But if the economic situation does not improve,will it matter much?
    Is nz better than sa? We are still not competing against them with the full force of a best team chosen from +55 million. Yet, imo we should be good enough to beat them at home – in sa – without any interference from outside sarugby.

  • Comment 124, posted at 23.09.16 13:43:08 by 50shadesofshark3 Reply

    Under 21 player
     
  • @gregkaos (Comment 123) : Wanted to say, don’t stress as far as I can see he is not that fast, you should win with at least a 100m-200m spare when he is tired :)

  • Comment 125, posted at 23.09.16 13:43:09 by Henkb Reply
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  • @gregkaos (Comment 120) : I think you’d need to be a very brave man to address him as Macguyver,he is a scary individual.

  • Comment 126, posted at 23.09.16 13:43:45 by The hound Reply
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  • @50shadesofshark3 (Comment 124) : random question – why do you keep re-registering?

  • Comment 127, posted at 23.09.16 13:57:16 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 127) : My random guess would be forgotten passwords

  • Comment 128, posted at 23.09.16 15:09:57 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @vanmartin (Comment 128) : shame old age is tough!!! He should just make his password “sharksworld”!

  • Comment 129, posted at 23.09.16 15:25:33 by JD Reply
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  • @vanmartin (Comment 128) : @JD (Comment 129) : :D :D

  • Comment 130, posted at 23.09.16 16:14:24 by 50shadesofshark3 Reply

    Under 21 player
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 127) : see comments 128 and 129 :D

  • Comment 131, posted at 23.09.16 16:16:33 by 50shadesofshark3 Reply

    Under 21 player
     
  • @JD (Comment 129) : or go for something simple like Jou Doos,which you can shorten to the always memorable J.D.

  • Comment 132, posted at 23.09.16 16:56:54 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 132) : hahaha ja quess you will never know what it really stand for ;-)

  • Comment 133, posted at 23.09.16 22:07:37 by JD Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 110) :

    Something similar to the basketball players at University of Georgia a few years hence.

    Coaching Principles and Strategies of Basketball class in the fall of 2001.

    Final exam question 8:

    How many points does a 3-point field goal account for in a Basketball Game?

    Don’t believe me? Google it.

    Outside of atheletics, UGA has pretty good academic credentials and is quite the tough place to get into.

    Their atheletes are pretty good at what they do also. Has probably won way more Olympic medals than South Africa.

  • Comment 134, posted at 24.09.16 02:29:11 by fyndraai Reply
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