Richard Ferguson

Last roll of the dice


Written by Richard Ferguson (Richard Ferguson)

Posted in :End of Year Tour, Original Content, Springboks on 22 Nov 2016 at 09:59
Tagged with : , , , , , ,

The Springboks face Wales this weekend, the last Test match of what has been a terrible year for Springbok rugby and its supporters. This is also the last Test before a very important date, namely May 2017.

Garrin Lambley of Sport24 raised the issue in a compelling read, that May 2017 is a significant date for all Rugby loving nations. It is the date on which the Rugby World Cup rankings are set in stone for the draw ahead of the showpiece in Japan 2019. In short, that means the Boks have one more game to do as much as they can to try get back in the top 4 in Rugby Rankings.

One would think that our wonderful coach and his assistants would be aware of this while they are out to make history for all the wrong reasons. After the embarrassing loss to Italy the Boks dropped to fifth on the World Rankings, which means the Boks will be in a group with a Top 4 nation for the group stages of the World Cup. We all remember what happened to England at the last World Cup as a result of being paired with a Top 4 nation?

At fifth in the Rankings, it would mean the Boks would be grouped with New Zealand, which makes life a little more difficult for the Boks, even if we do somehow right the ship ahead of 2019. Slipping further down the rankings might actually count in the Boks’ favour.

And that is likely Coetzee’s angle here, because I can think of no other reason to play your strength team against Italy only to give the fringe players a run against Wales a week later. And that is what Coetzee is hinting at doing.

“But we did not get the result we wanted so I have to rethink that. I have to give opportunities now to other players. There are other young players who have worked really hard in training on this tour but haven’t played as yet. They deserve a chance and I am going to try and get them that opportunity against Wales.” – His exact words.

So what do we make of this? Is it possible that he is trying his hand, potentially for the last time, throwing young energetic players at a Wales team that should be confident of pulling of a Bok scalp? Is he trying the unconventional approach by picking a team that Wales will have no video of, hoping to somehow catch them surprise and buying a win?

We will have to wait until Thursday to see what team exactly will be running out against Wales, but we are all now fully aware of what exactly is on the line when these two teams meet.



179 Comments

  • Calling it now. Strauss at flyhalf. He got the ball more from the scrummie than the flyhalf in the last two games in any case.

  • Comment 1, posted at 22.11.16 10:07:44 by Dragnipur Reply
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  • I don’t think he has any “plans”. He’s just desperate for a win and doesn’t know what to do. Maybe he has finally realized after 7 losses that this is not the best bok team after all…

  • Comment 2, posted at 22.11.16 10:12:52 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • Whats the point of putting never seen before players to surprise the Welsh and then play the same old play that we have played for over a decade and that is smash it up channel 1 until a hole appears.

    There is obviously something wrong in the camp vs Italy the team looked demoralized before they sang the anthem and throughout the game most players look deflated… bar Lambie, Combrink, and le Roux most people received the ball standing still and no-one else attempted to run any angles (besides Paige who ran 90 degrees every chance he get unless his foot fell asleep while waiting to pass the ball from the base).

    What happened to good old basic SA rugby when it was use big forwards to suck in the defense around the maul/ruck and then spread it wide… The amount of times I have seen overlaps on the outside and a blasted scrummy pass it to a forward for another crash ball only to have it knocked on is ridiculous.

    another thing is we don’t have fetchers… so can we minimise going to ground with the ball.

    I hate calling for players heads but Paige needs to spend time putting pep in his distribution or he needs to sit on the stands and can our centers please learn to draw a tackle and pass as the only way to get quick ball to the wing is a hail-mary-floater which means instead of a 1 to 1 chance the poor wing has a 1 on 3 situation and an almost impossible task of sending the ball back to a center.

  • Comment 3, posted at 22.11.16 10:16:26 by Warren Harvey Reply

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  • Saterday, I really could not understand what the game plan was suppose to be, Paige took longer to clear the ball than it takes Telkom to help a customer complain, koch got 3x times more ball at first receiver than Lambie, and then he was by himself, not even part of a pod, players ran next to each other, rather than in a normal attacking line, no one hit the line at speed etc… Flip, luckily only one more game we have to get through this year. Plus I am more excited for the NZ/France game.

  • Comment 4, posted at 22.11.16 10:23:55 by KingRiaan Reply

    KingRiaanTeam captain
     
  • This is all tactical. By 2019 we all know the composition requirements hence probably very little investment so spending the minimum amount possible at the RWC is paramount. Therefore the tactic is to ensure that we fall outside the seeded countries and preferably outside the top8 so that we land is the toughest group possible and thereby ensuring only a maximum of 4 weeks is spent at the RWC in 2019 reducing costs. Its an economic strategy chaps

  • Comment 5, posted at 22.11.16 10:29:55 by SheldonK Reply

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  • I’m very interested to see what AC does with two players/positions: Strauss at 2 and duh duh at 12. Strauss keeps talking as if he’s playing, which will be a sentimental selection to give the guy one last game/win. Whereas AC should’ve booted him a long time ago and selected Marx/Bongi. Then, Duh Duh has been terrible all year but seems to be one of AC’s pet players that is undroppable. is he going to stick with duh duh and Venter or is Rohan/Mapoe going to get a chance?

  • Comment 6, posted at 22.11.16 10:47:38 by Leeubok Reply

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  • I think even looking at WC 2019 is pointless as at the moment we’re not good enough to get out of any pool we land in. So lets focus on fixing our results currently. I haven’t been shouting for the coach to go but even an interim coach can’t do worse than AC, so I think it’s time for SARU to show AC and his whole team the door. Next we focus on getting back to the basics of SA rugby and that is a strong forward showing. I know this means not exactly the most exciting backline play but under AC I don’t see that happening anyway. The All Blacks don’t have incredible backline plays they play with quick ball at speed, that would be my sole focus for the backline to start with. We need a team that can defend like a beast and force opposition to kick. We also need to stop picking overseas players (or cut the qty to a minimum), it has only made the squad more unsettled. Then we find a leader who is good enough to be in the team and back him to the hilt. Many argued John Smit wasn’t the best hooker in SA in 2004 but look where that got us. Lets not choose the most flashy players lets choose the players who are willing to bleed the most for the jersey.

  • Comment 7, posted at 22.11.16 10:56:30 by Hulk Reply

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  • Now more than ever we need players like Bismarck, Jannie and Frans Steyn, couple them with some young players like Phillip vd Walt, Lappies, JL du Preez, Rob du Preez, Ulengo, Pollard, Marcell, Brussouw and Bosch

  • Comment 8, posted at 22.11.16 10:58:01 by KingRiaan Reply

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  • @KingRiaan (Comment 8) :

    Brussow is 30, not exactly a young gun..

  • Comment 9, posted at 22.11.16 11:01:54 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 9) : A couple of those players I named are not young guns any more, but you need some hardebaarde together with some windgat laaities to turn this team around.

  • Comment 10, posted at 22.11.16 11:06:59 by KingRiaan Reply

    KingRiaanTeam captain
     
  • He should just play all the guys who are playing in Europe and leave the youngsters alone,
    Play guys like Burden,Pienaar,Jannie,Frans,Bismark,Guthro,Willemse,Jaques Du PLessis, Brussow,leave them to sort out their own game plan and play like a European based South African Barbarians.
    I really don’t want to see Coetzee damage Jean Luc, with his shit brand of blame the players in the media rugby.

  • Comment 11, posted at 22.11.16 11:08:38 by The hound Reply
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  • The big question should be:

    Would the Boks have only won 4 games so far this year if Heyneke Meyer was still the coach??

  • Comment 12, posted at 22.11.16 11:15:35 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • If South African rugby really want to save their future, then they have to allow privatization of the unions. That way they will then have the money to not only hold on to the best players, but also bring back home a lot of those currently playing in Europe/Japan.

  • Comment 13, posted at 22.11.16 11:16:09 by KingRiaan Reply

    KingRiaanTeam captain
     
  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 12) : I would say probably no but by the end of 2015 Meyer was also looking very stressed so would also need to rejuvenate himself and like we hoped AC would do and start with a fresh group of players…

  • Comment 14, posted at 22.11.16 11:36:11 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 12) : No. I would have backed us to beat Ireland at home 3/3 and Australia (who were out of form), Argentina and Italy away. I think we would have still lost to New Zealand and England though.

  • Comment 15, posted at 22.11.16 11:36:50 by SeanyJMc Reply

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  • @SeanyJMc (Comment 15) :
    @SheldonK (Comment 14) :

    Yes, but we would have won more than we lost, meaning it would have been a successful season, or at least more so than what has actually happened in 2016..

  • Comment 16, posted at 22.11.16 11:38:41 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 16) : I think the question you should ask is what would Meyer have done different, in my opinion he would have chosen a different team.,and I think he would have still had the respect of the changeroom.

  • Comment 17, posted at 22.11.16 11:44:53 by The hound Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 16) : Probably but Meyer would have needed to do something different to what he was at the end of 2015. And its that something different we also wished AC would do. I still believe this trying to integrate local and foreign based based players is a lot harder than we think and it really needs to be addressed. By all means pick foreign based players but only if they can attend the same camps and trainings etc as the local players. if not leave them out.

  • Comment 18, posted at 22.11.16 11:47:23 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @The hound (Comment 17) : If they had stuck with Meyer and added Ackermann and Smith as his assistants then we could have slowly got on the right path…but oh well. Im actually interested to see where this comedy show leads next as i think something will change but what/who will change etc im not too sure…

  • Comment 19, posted at 22.11.16 11:49:42 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 18) : I want to know why you are so adamant that a player playing for the Stormers has more chance of forming a partnership with a player from the Bulls, than he does with a player from Saracens or Montpellier.
    There is no logic in that thinking, theres is so little synergy in the way South African teams play.

  • Comment 20, posted at 22.11.16 12:06:45 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 20) : The synergy gets created when they arrive at a two week camp and train together for that time. Then the foreign guy arrives 4 days before the test match. Now who will have the better synergy? There is also a a push to get all Sa teams trying to play the same way. All the Sa based guys will also be on the same conditioning path as their season runs the same time, European season is different so stage of conditioning will be different. So again no problem if they pick foreign guys, but they must arrive at the same time to camps etc and have same availability for comps etc.

  • Comment 21, posted at 22.11.16 12:14:11 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 12) : Good question, but that loss to Japan will always leave an inkling at the back of the brain that it would have also been possible. For me, this slide started on HM’s watch even though then it was more of a bad wobble.

  • Comment 22, posted at 22.11.16 12:53:52 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 22) : This is Meyer’s last team he selected:
    15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Fourie du Preez (captain), 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Schalk Burger, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

    Substitutes: 16 Adriaan Strauss, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Jannie du Plessis, 19 Victor Matfield, 20 Willem Alberts, 21 Ruan Pienaar, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 Jan Serfontein

    Only 8 were involved this last weekend…

  • Comment 23, posted at 22.11.16 13:04:36 by SheldonK Reply

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  • Being grouped with NZ is probably best, because it will make for easier opponents in the QF and semi.

  • Comment 24, posted at 22.11.16 13:11:58 by fyndraai Reply
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  • Rich,

    By saying that unknown players will surprise the Welsch with the way they play, you are implying that the Bok game plan is not set by the coach, but rather the players or combination of players.

    Ie. SA players for the most part play in a way determined by themselves and not their coaches.

    This is something I’ve been suspecting for some time and goes a long way towards explaining why our teams so frequently under perform.

  • Comment 25, posted at 22.11.16 13:17:22 by fyndraai Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 23) : Wow, almost a new look scrum but the backline has quite a bit of familiarity to it.

  • Comment 26, posted at 22.11.16 13:19:16 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 26) : Its quite interesting looking at that side. All of Kriel, Pollard, Louw, Etzabeth, Malherbe, B DuPlessis, Serfontein are injured currently.
    And Burger, Matfield, Pienaar, J DuPlessis, Vermuelen not available for selection

  • Comment 27, posted at 22.11.16 13:32:36 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @SheldonK (Comment 27) : Burger, Pienaar, J DuPlessis, Vermuelen HAVE MADE THEMSELVES unavailable for selection

  • Comment 28, posted at 22.11.16 13:43:14 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 28) : Thats their choice but either way they as unavailable as Matfield so they may as well retire from International rugby

  • Comment 29, posted at 22.11.16 13:59:30 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 29) : Bismarck is injured and Jannie made himself unavailable because of the birth of his kid

  • Comment 30, posted at 22.11.16 14:04:50 by KingRiaan Reply

    KingRiaanTeam captain
     
  • @KingRiaan (Comment 30) : I know Bissie is injured. Dont think Jannie ever intended to play to be honest, but cant see him getting called up again anyway.

  • Comment 31, posted at 22.11.16 14:06:47 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • Players injured/not available(self imposed) to AC include
    Hooker: B DuPlessis
    Prop: Malherbe, J DuPlessis, Redelinghuis
    Locks: Etzabeth (only recently)
    Loose forwards: Coetzee, Vermuelen, Louw, Burger, Brussouw, Kolisi, Notshe, Kriel
    Scrumhalf: Pienaar, Reinach, Hougaard
    Flyhalf: Pollard
    Centres: Serfontein, DeJongh, F Steyn
    Wings: None
    Fullback: Kriel

    Interesting list…

  • Comment 32, posted at 22.11.16 14:16:58 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 32) : Hooker Ntubeni,and Frans Steyn never made himself unavailable, as far as I know he is available.

  • Comment 33, posted at 22.11.16 14:39:06 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 33) : Ah i thought there was another hooker. Suppose Schalk Brits can also go down there as dont think has has retired. Im not sure what the Steyn situation is so just included him. Also unknown on guys like Spies, Olivier, Ebersohn, Catrakilis, etc

  • Comment 34, posted at 22.11.16 14:45:26 by SheldonK Reply

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  • @fyndraai (Comment 25) :

    If I implied that, I’m happy you picked it up. I didn’t think my wording could be taken to that extent, but you raise an interesting point.

    I don’t know if AC is as tactically talented as this implies him to be, but if the players want to go out there and make sure they win matches, no matter the game plan, then they should do it. They have the power, they are the ones on the field not AC..

  • Comment 35, posted at 22.11.16 15:08:05 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • Hows these stats from the game against Italy:

    Boks first receiver was backline player on 35 out of 80 passes (44%)
    NZ was 34 out of 48 passes (71%)

    First receiver from 9:
    Strauss – 9
    Koch – 7
    PSdT – 9
    Alberts – 6
    Lambie – 13

  • Comment 36, posted at 22.11.16 15:15:10 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 36) : Could you build on from those stats? Indicate the metres made by those players? I know they only record metres made for the whole game but still would prove interesting i feel.

  • Comment 37, posted at 22.11.16 15:18:38 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 37) :

    I only just saw them on twitter and copy pasted them on here..

    Would love to see more detail and analyse, but I think we both know that would be nearly impossible..

  • Comment 38, posted at 22.11.16 15:20:27 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 38) : Yeh would require some work and i truly believe that it would show that those receiving the ball from 9 made very few metres during the game. What i like to watch is how quickly our guys get off the floor and realign on defense but more specifically on attack. If anyone is able to watch the Italy and even England game again watch how long it takes our players to realign on attack…and if we dont drop the ball after about 3-4 phases we are so bunched up its actually a joke.

  • Comment 39, posted at 22.11.16 15:30:36 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • It would be nice to get some Sharks news rather. Boks have nothing more to offer. It’s a dead horse.

  • Comment 40, posted at 22.11.16 15:42:21 by GreatSharksays Reply

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  • @GreatSharksays (Comment 40) : Donkey not a horse, and its so dead it smells,

  • Comment 41, posted at 22.11.16 15:51:46 by The hound Reply
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  • @GreatSharksays (Comment 40) : Not quiete Sharks news but here is a clip of “the greatest try ever”, its a gem.

  • Comment 42, posted at 22.11.16 15:58:51 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 42) :

    Gave me goosebumps.. Thank you!

  • Comment 43, posted at 22.11.16 16:10:48 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 42) : Thats the very same irritating little Welsh commentator, but what a try.

  • Comment 44, posted at 22.11.16 16:25:33 by The hound Reply
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  • What a game it was, I remember seeing the highlights of that game long before the digital era, it was a humdinger, including a good dust up between Grant Batty (NZ wing) and one either.

  • Comment 45, posted at 22.11.16 16:36:43 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • There was an ex Natal player in that clip, anyone know who it was. Dancing Bear and The Hound should know this.

  • Comment 46, posted at 22.11.16 16:39:11 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 35) :
    The problem with that idea is that when players act as they think best, they do so as uncoordinated individuals and they will always be at a huge disadvantage against teams that play with a preset coordinated game-plan.

  • Comment 47, posted at 22.11.16 17:27:34 by fyndraai Reply
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  • BTW, the log positions do not determine which pool a team is in for the RWC, merely the bands in which the draw will be done.

    1-4 head the for pools and cannot be in the same pool
    5-8 are drawn into the pools
    then 9-12
    then 13-16
    and 17-20

    Effectively 1, 8, 12, 16 and 20 can be in the same pool. Or 4,5,9,13 and 17

    The draw is done on rankings at the end of the 6N in 2017. Over the next few years the rankings will change and by RWC time you suddenly could find the ten 1,3 and 5 in the same pool.

    The pool of death could be any of the pools

  • Comment 48, posted at 22.11.16 17:46:57 by Baylion Reply

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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 42) : @Richard Ferguson (Comment 43) : @The hound (Comment 44) : great try! Some seriously high tackles and the game just continued! Can only wonder what would have happens in today’s era!?

  • Comment 49, posted at 22.11.16 19:09:22 by JD Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 46) : Tommy Bedford?

  • Comment 50, posted at 22.11.16 19:09:41 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 50) : Davies and Quinnell played 8 for the Baabaas, so no Bedford.

  • Comment 51, posted at 22.11.16 20:13:29 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 51) : No Natal players in that Ba Baas team, they were all British

  • Comment 52, posted at 22.11.16 21:00:59 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 52) : Right, and clearly no Natal players on the ABs side, maybe the ref or touch judge? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  • Comment 53, posted at 22.11.16 21:16:11 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 46) : @robdylan (Comment 50) : @Dancing Bear (Comment 51) : @The hound (Comment 52) : JPR Williams played for Natal after the Lions tour in 1974.

  • Comment 54, posted at 22.11.16 21:21:42 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 54) : After he beat the stuffing out of Tommy Bedford on the sideline (right in front of me)??? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  • Comment 55, posted at 22.11.16 21:26:02 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 55) : hahaha ja so Rob was not to far off ;-) wonder if they talked in the Natal change room!?

  • Comment 56, posted at 22.11.16 21:41:48 by JD Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 56) : He really didn’t get any good shots in. He punched him a lot on his back, but not much more. I’m sure they had a beer after the match. :mrgreen:

  • Comment 57, posted at 22.11.16 22:15:31 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • A great comment from another site:

    The game will be like to drunk blokes swinging at each other outside a nightclub, everybody else has moved on, whoever wins it won’t matter

  • Comment 58, posted at 22.11.16 22:21:44 by Baylion Reply

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  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 57) : I’m sure they did but still think defence practice could have been “fun”

  • Comment 59, posted at 22.11.16 23:01:02 by JD Reply
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  • @ JD, yep, it was JPR Williams.

  • Comment 60, posted at 22.11.16 23:33:33 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @JD (Comment 59) : Up and Under receiving practice…… ;-) :mrgreen:

  • Comment 61, posted at 23.11.16 00:29:28 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 60) : Great blast from the past Salmo….thanks!

  • Comment 62, posted at 23.11.16 00:30:08 by Dancing Bear Reply
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  • @Baylion (Comment 48) :

    Thanks for that, I was not aware.

  • Comment 63, posted at 23.11.16 08:13:30 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @fyndraai (Comment 47) :

    Good point.

  • Comment 64, posted at 23.11.16 08:15:05 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • Do we really think all of Van Rensburg, Ulengo, DuPreez, Cassiem, Peterson, Marx, Mapoe will be in the match day 23 this weekend? Id be surprised if they all are eventhough AC hinted at playing them.
    If he does he could possibly have the Lions 2,4,8,9,10,12,13,14…

  • Comment 65, posted at 23.11.16 08:37:18 by SheldonK Reply

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  • I did not know JPR had played for Natal.

  • Comment 66, posted at 23.11.16 10:06:18 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 66) : I had completely forgotten,alzheimers creeping in.
    I remember Murray Mexted ,Chris Butcher and Tommy Lawton.

  • Comment 67, posted at 23.11.16 10:31:42 by The hound Reply
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  • I see Adriaan Strauss has finally stepped up to his role as captain after 11 tests and 7 losses

    “In his last week of international rugby, it is Adriaan Strauss who has taken on the responsibility of driving the Springbok response to the big defeat to England and the shock upset at the hands of Italy last weekend.

    Strauss has already publicly accepted the responsibility of driving the quest for a positive end to an abysmal year for the national team. ”
    http://www.supersport.com/rugby/springboks/news/161123/Strauss_is_driving_the_Bok_response

  • Comment 68, posted at 23.11.16 10:42:35 by Baylion Reply

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  • @Baylion (Comment 68) : Media drivel to try sell articles. Really is a nothing article that. Guess even the media are bored of the Boks

  • Comment 69, posted at 23.11.16 10:46:04 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @The hound (Comment 67) : Butcher? I don’t even know the name. Who was he?

  • Comment 70, posted at 23.11.16 10:49:23 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylanHead Coach
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 70) : England number 8 he stayed on after the England tour I think in 84 ,long blond hair in the Jean Paul Rive mode, probably one of the best rugby players I ever saw the only played 3 tests for England and disappeared.
    Those were the days when Cowboy Shaw played for Northern Transvaal.

  • Comment 71, posted at 23.11.16 11:09:26 by The hound Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 70) : @The hound (Comment 71) : I remember him well. I have a very vivid memory of him being replaced (you had to be injured to get replaced those days) and as he got to the reserves bench he immediately lit up a cigarette.

  • Comment 72, posted at 23.11.16 11:13:45 by MysticShark Reply
    Competition Winner
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  • @MysticShark (Comment 72) : I once had the pleasure of watching the French team training in Durban and Serge Blanco was smoking on the field.

  • Comment 73, posted at 23.11.16 11:16:29 by The hound Reply
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  • From someone supposedly “in the loop”

    8-15 : WW, Faf, Elton, Ulengo, RJVR, Venter, Combrinck, Goosen

    40 Bok caps in the backline

  • Comment 74, posted at 23.11.16 11:44:09 by Baylion Reply

    BaylionSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Baylion (Comment 74) : I wouldnt mind that. Would have been even better had that been the lineup all tour

  • Comment 75, posted at 23.11.16 11:46:31 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 75) : A bit of a Hail Mary team selection for the last game

  • Comment 76, posted at 23.11.16 11:48:03 by Baylion Reply

    BaylionSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Baylion (Comment 76) : No doubt and id say expected but it isnt really as some would suggest his selections all year have been hail marys. Has the same15 nevermind 23 played 2 games in a row this year? doubt it. That backline could have been put in place for the rugby championship and by now had a good few games together. Not saying they will automatically produce miracles, just that their synergy would be so much better by now and as a consequence so would their effectiveness

  • Comment 77, posted at 23.11.16 11:50:47 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @The hound (Comment 68) : Dick Cocks too.

  • Comment 78, posted at 23.11.16 11:55:33 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 77) : But will they be unshackled?

  • Comment 79, posted at 23.11.16 12:00:32 by Baylion Reply

    BaylionSuper Rugby player
     
  • @The hound (Comment 72) : Peter Winterbottom had the blond hair, I think he played a few games for Transvaal. Chris Butcher had long brown hair and was a huge, laid back guy. I remember bumping into them a few times at Monks Inn.

  • Comment 80, posted at 23.11.16 12:00:50 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @Baylion (Comment 79) : Look i think ‘unshackled’ is a terrible term made up by the media. Players need to play the situation in front of them whilst bearing in mind the opposition strengths and weakness identified during the week. It should never be a matter of you must kick in this situation or must run in this situation etc.

  • Comment 81, posted at 23.11.16 12:04:30 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 80) : Winterbottom never played for us think he played for Transvaal,but they played together for England think the third one in that loose trio was Back

  • Comment 82, posted at 23.11.16 12:13:18 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 83) : Thats right, Winterbottom played for Transvaal and Butcher came to Natal.

  • Comment 83, posted at 23.11.16 12:16:55 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 81) : Fair enough but AC’s plan has been to play off 9.

    Someone posted on Twitter that in the Italy test the Boks first receiver was backline player on 35 out of 80 passes (44%)
    NZ was 34 out of 48 passes (71%)

    First receiver from 9:
    Strauss – 9
    Koch – 7
    PSdT – 9
    Alberts – 6
    Lambie – 13

    Add to this that the receivers mostly got the ball standing still it becomes very difficult to get onto the front foot from there

  • Comment 84, posted at 23.11.16 12:17:46 by Baylion Reply

    BaylionSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Baylion (Comment 84) : Hate to tell you but its been the Bok plan to play off 9 ever since i can recall in the pro era. Boks have always played off 9 to varying degrees of effectiveness depending on the quality of the forwards taking the ball from 9. So this is not a new AC policy. The problem is that when its not working on the field we dont seem to have the strong leadership at 9/10 to change it up and for the 10 to demand the ball.

  • Comment 85, posted at 23.11.16 12:28:58 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 85) : I realise that but playing off 9 you need the scrummie to be a general. Which was why HM was so desperate to try and turn every scrummie into a FdP clone

  • Comment 86, posted at 23.11.16 12:31:34 by Baylion Reply

    BaylionSuper Rugby player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 85) : Would love it if thr boks can get campo in on a consultant basis just for a bit, according to me one of the best attacking players I have seen, that had great vision of what is happening on the field, if he can transfer some of that knowledge onto thr coaches, look what he did when we had him for a bit at the Sharks

  • Comment 87, posted at 23.11.16 12:34:10 by Henkb Reply
    Author
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  • @Baylion (Comment 86) : 100%…and i read an article where they stated that is the biggest problem currently…we dont have a good thinker/general at 9…and also dont at 10 compounding the issue. So not saying AC shouldnt identify that and try make an adjustment, just that a general at 9 and good ball carrying forwards is what numerous Bok coaches have had at their disposal to get results and we dont have either currently.

  • Comment 88, posted at 23.11.16 12:39:30 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Henkb (Comment 87) : Him or someone with a strong mental approach to the game. I truly believe SA players have the physical skills needed to be successful BUT our fitness levels and decision making/mental strength are 2 factors we are quite poor at currently. And unfortunately those 2 factors greatly hampers the physical skills.

  • Comment 89, posted at 23.11.16 12:41:29 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 89) : Agreed, our fitness is nowhere currently, that needs a serious step up, that should also reduce some of the injuries we have currently, not all of them but most of them

  • Comment 90, posted at 23.11.16 12:44:44 by Henkb Reply
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  • @Henkb (Comment 90) : I would tend to agree.

  • Comment 91, posted at 23.11.16 12:48:15 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 89) : I think Jantjies, Lambie or Goosen in the current group has the ability to allow the game to be played off 10 but then they need to get more of the ball as well as get it while in motion, not sitting back in the pocket

  • Comment 92, posted at 23.11.16 12:50:18 by Baylion Reply

    BaylionSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Baylion (Comment 92) : The ability yes. Whether they have the mental strength and presence to demand it is another thing and im yet to see that from any of them. All 3 are very much confidence players, something goes a bit wrong and the house falls down…

  • Comment 93, posted at 23.11.16 12:52:54 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Baylion (Comment 92) : That is why i would like someone like campo to join the boks as consultant, how many times did he take the ball at 10,and created magic from there, but then that guy must have free rain on the back line, will get our 10 flatter and taking the ball in motion and that will get the back line going, even a Larkham, or Terry Lacroix would work also, just to pass their knowledge

  • Comment 94, posted at 23.11.16 12:53:29 by Henkb Reply
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  • @Warren Harvey (Comment 3) : Maybe we watched two different matches. Lambie has been poor all tour. He is down on confidence, and the Boks haven’t done his career any favors. He was pushed back too soon! Maybe they should have started him in his preferred position of FB or rather burts of 20 minutes off the bench to regain confidence. Then they still made the poor lad capt vs the Baabaas!!

  • Comment 95, posted at 23.11.16 19:47:08 by KingCheetah Reply

    KingCheetahTeam captain
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 6) : Strauss hasn’t been a sentimental selection. Neither Marx or Bongi have enough experience to start and neither have made such a profound impact off the bench.
    Strauss is not where he used to be, but he is consistently accurate and does the core duties well. Marx has more potential, but he needs to be more accurate. Sorry I don’t agree with your assertion. In fact starting with Marx is a sentimental selection from a Lions perspective.
    More interested to see if he is going to persist with Whitely at 8, same scenario, nobody good enough on your to oust him, but the physical nature of test rugby doesn’t suit Whiteley’s game!

  • Comment 96, posted at 23.11.16 19:52:29 by KingCheetah Reply

    KingCheetahTeam captain
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 96) : “Strauss is not where he used to be, but he is consistently accurate and does the core duties well. “

    THIS. A hundred times over.

    Tell Marx to go learn to throw the ball into a damn lineout before he has delusions of being a Bok hooker.

  • Comment 97, posted at 23.11.16 21:40:30 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
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  • Talk about lineout throws.
    That over the top throw to DeAllende was seriously accurate and perfectly straight also.

    Only problem was that DeAllende was completely offsides.
    Which makes me wonder about our couches’ qualifications. What type of moron would devise a planned move that will concede a penalty if the referee is half awake.

  • Comment 98, posted at 24.11.16 05:18:20 by fyndraai Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
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  • @KingCheetah (Comment 95) : There were different versions of the Bok games? Why didnt anyone tell me…how did we do in the other version cos the one i watched wasnt great.

  • Comment 99, posted at 24.11.16 08:56:06 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 96) : Well I will disagree with you and Rob again. So Strauss can throw a ball straight. Whoopdeedoo. Marx did that job pretty well in the barbarians game. Then he offers you so much more around the field as a good ball carrier and he’s good at stealing balls at the breakdown. You okes all whinge to have Bismarck back, but in Marx you have the same type player, but he’s “inexperienced”. Strauss as a leader has been a big let down too. So why the heck is he still there? And by the way, I would even prefer Bongi start ahead of Strauss. I’m not punting Marx only because he’s a Lions player. In fact, I think Robbie Coetzee is just as good if not better than Marx so would rather have him there from a Lions perspective.

  • Comment 100, posted at 24.11.16 09:19:47 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 96) : And your comment about WW and the “physical” nature of test rugby. Did Duane run over defenders and tackle them back during the Irish series? I don’t think he did.. Did the BONE COLLECTOR collect any bones thus far? Maybe 1 or 2 in the first 10mins but thereafter he gets tired. Did it help to have psdt as a loosie against Eng to bulk up the pack? Your assumption that WW is not test material because he’s not physical enough is flawed. He doesn’t play his natural game because AC doesn’t know how to coach that game plan, in fact, it seems there is no game plan at all at the moment. The loose forward combination was not balanced this year so it’s no wonder WW has struggled.

    Who else would you rather have at 8? Oh yes, vd Walt. Now tell me how that is not a sentimental Cheetah/Sharks selection?

  • Comment 101, posted at 24.11.16 09:26:08 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 101) : Sorry but the more i watch Whiteley the more i have to agree that he is not test standard. Fact is with him going up against the likes of Read, Vunipola, Timani etc he is and has always come off 2nd best in the contact and thus the opposition gain valuable ground. Yes he can run and pass- but that to me sounds more like a backline player than the attributes of a test 8th man. He is a good super rugby player but the more i watch him the more im convinced thats all he is im afraid.Willing to be proven wrong but havnt seen anything yet to suggest it

  • Comment 102, posted at 24.11.16 09:31:53 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 102) : To be fair to Whitely you could apply your logic to the whole team and not one of them could be called more than a good super rugby player.The mighty strongman from the Cape took one hit from Vunipola straight on his arse and out the tour.
    Bakkies ,Mark Andrews,Reuben Kruger, even Bismark would have flattened that guy in that collision,or definitely in the next one.

  • Comment 103, posted at 24.11.16 09:43:22 by The hound Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 102) : I think WW and Kankowski are very similar in the way they play as well as they look like they are so much more than a SR player but then never quite seem to scale the same heights when in the test team. I hope for me, the boks and himself WW can prove me wrong but at the moment I’m not convinced. Suppose I’m starting to feel the same way about Lambie, hopefully he has a stellar 2017 with the Sharks and returns to the bok fold the player we know he is.

  • Comment 104, posted at 24.11.16 09:50:11 by Hulk Reply

    HulkSuper Rugby player
     
  • @The hound (Comment 103) : I wanted to say the same thing, that if you follow their logic then none of the current bok squad are up to “international standard”. Because the entire team is struggling and no individual player has looked like he belongs in a springbok team. I didn’t say this at first is because then it means players like duh duh and strauss should also be given another chance.. Under a new coach with a proper gameplan.

  • Comment 105, posted at 24.11.16 09:51:04 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @The hound (Comment 103) : Think thats a bit unfair on Etzabeth as it was a head clash and just one of those unfortunate things. Etzabeth has shown in other games he has played that he is good enough for this level. Unfortunately as you say not many have shown that they are good enough so yes perhaps all we do have is decent super rugby level players. Perhaps Whiteley would be better suited to playing 6 and to the ball, i dunno.

  • Comment 106, posted at 24.11.16 09:53:35 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 105) : Yes the team as a whole arent performing but we give excuses for some players but then not for others? Surely either everyone gets the AC coaching excuse or none do. I just look at the match ups and no matter who is coach the fact is that Whiteley vs any of Read, Vunipola, Timani, Heaslip, Isa, Falatau means opposition get front foot ball as Whiteley cannot compete physically with them. Yes he will tackle them eventually but only after they have gained ground.

  • Comment 107, posted at 24.11.16 09:57:41 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • A Boks loose trio of: Local 6. Kriel 7. DuPreez 8. Van Der Walt or Foreign: 6. Coetzee. 7. DuPlessis 8. Vermuelen is where the Boks should be heading.

  • Comment 108, posted at 24.11.16 10:02:51 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 107) : That’s my point. I’m also guilty of slamming Strauss, Duh Duh, Habana etc but I make excuses for my favourite players. I just think this argument of WW not being able to compete physically is BS. He makes all his tackles, and it’s not like he hangs on like a 5 year old until the oke eventually trips. Sure he doesn’t always tackle guys back, but WHO DOES? No one! Why is it expected of WW to tackle guys back when no one else does? But he gets pointed out? He is not that type of player and shouldn’t be expected to. Use him according to his strengths and you’ll see his worth. Unfortunately AC doesn’t have the skills to coach a team according to the players he picks.

  • Comment 109, posted at 24.11.16 10:06:06 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 108) : Does vd Walt tackle guys back and run over defenders? Nope. In super rugby the lions combination of Kriel, Tecklenburg and WW was one of the best if not the best. Why? Because it is a balanced combination that fitted perfectly with the gameplan. AC needs to decide what his gameplan is and then pick players according to his plan. Or pick players you want there and play according to their strengths. AC isn’t doing either

  • Comment 110, posted at 24.11.16 10:10:04 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 107) : Said this before but Ethebeth has gone through a Spies transformation this year.May be they should put him back on his brave medicine again.

  • Comment 111, posted at 24.11.16 10:10:15 by The hound Reply
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  • @Leeubok (Comment 109) : The thing is his strengths are his running and passing etc when the game is loose. How often does a test match get loose? Perhaps only towards end of the 2nd half. Look dont get the wrong idea- Whiteley is a great guy (especially being from Glenwood) and his has good skills etc. I just dont think a test 8th man is where his skills will be utilised as it does require competing with some serious beasts in opposition sides.

  • Comment 112, posted at 24.11.16 10:11:32 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 112) : Um, do the AB’s not run and pass all the time? Or do they bash it up with the forwards running over defenders all the time?

  • Comment 113, posted at 24.11.16 10:12:59 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @The hound (Comment 111) : Etzabeth looks as if he needs a serious rest and conditioning period. If he was a New Zealander i can guarantee he would be withdrawn from super rugby for a good month to get him to rest and condition himself properly.

  • Comment 114, posted at 24.11.16 10:13:17 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 110) : Test rugby is not like super rugby i hate to tell you, there isnt the same freedom. Defenses are better. And you have to get front foot ball the hard way. And yes Van Der Walt is a lot more abrasive than Whiteley. @Leeubok (Comment 113) : Maybe watch an All Black game- they most definitely bash it up to get front foot ball and suck in defenders before moving the ball. The notion that the ABs play 7s rugby and just fling it around with no contact is so far from the truth.

  • Comment 115, posted at 24.11.16 10:17:01 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 115) : they do not bash it up! Bash it up means you run into a defender, or rather try run over a defender. Like we Saffers love doing, and by your comments, fans love seeing. The AB’s run at SPACE, that’s why to you it seems like they are always making hard yards. And once they make contact they always look for the offload first, and if that is not on they go to ground. WW would thrive in their system because they won’t expect him to run over defenders.

  • Comment 116, posted at 24.11.16 10:25:19 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 116) : Yes the ABs never make contact, they are never required to dominate a tackle or drive through it, they also never make tackles the opposition just fall at their feet. Sorry to play rugby at that level you need to be physical and dominate the collisions. You forwards have to do the hard yards and get on the front foot. Vunipola was very ineffective at running through Boks, someone should have told him that. Duane Vermuelen is seen as one of the best 8th men in the world and he is a very abrasive player that dominates tackles and gets stuck in.

  • Comment 117, posted at 24.11.16 10:33:44 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 116) : You are focusing just on tackling. The other aspect that is concerning is that in the collisions when carrying Whiteley just doesn’t have that robustness, to gain momentum. As someone noted, at test level, you don’t have the space and time that you have at Super Rugby level.
    I do think vd Walt is more suited to 8 than WW.

  • Comment 118, posted at 24.11.16 10:38:22 by KingCheetah Reply

    KingCheetahTeam captain
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 117) : I still think that none of us realise how much Marcel is missed,

  • Comment 119, posted at 24.11.16 10:40:18 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 119) : I really hope that his rehab has gone well- not a fun injury that. I also have a feeling we may not see him in a Bok jersey soon due to him playing in Ireland. I could be wrong but just a thought.

  • Comment 120, posted at 24.11.16 10:46:30 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • I still don’t agree with you guys, but I’m done arguing. The fact of the matter is that whoever AC picked this year, they looked terrible. From captain fantastic strauss, to each and every of my favourite Lions players. The buck stops with the coach and the captain so they must both go. Finish en klaar

  • Comment 121, posted at 24.11.16 10:55:22 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 121) : Well you do get your wish in terms of the captain going- he will be gone by monday.

  • Comment 122, posted at 24.11.16 11:02:58 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • We blame the coach for wanting the Boks to play a confused and confusing “game plan” and not allowing players to play to their strengths because of poor selections and combinations. But at the same time we blame players for not “stepping up” , not being “Bok material” or not performing.

    So which is it? The coach or the players?

    Would a different coach have achieved more with the same players?

    Would a different game plan have achieved more with the same players?

    Would different players have achieved more with the same coach and game plan?

  • Comment 123, posted at 24.11.16 11:12:03 by Baylion Reply

    BaylionSuper Rugby player
     
  • @Baylion (Comment 123) : Question1 – YES. A decent coach would have got better results with this group of players
    Question2 – YES. ANY gameplan would’ve achieved more!
    Question3 – NO. Although he got several selections wrong, even the in form players looked terrible under AC

  • Comment 124, posted at 24.11.16 11:15:47 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Baylion (Comment 123) : I truly believe its a combination of things. Yes the coaching hasnt been great but the players have also been really poor and not because of the coaching. As a lot of guys who have been there done that have said- it just looks like everyone is disinterested in the Boks and actually giving their all. It looks like they just trying to preserve themselves to make the next game. So whilst the coach hasnt inspired, the players have also havnt given any effort. The problem in SA is we waste so much energy looking to point blame and very little energy actually problem solving and providing solutions.

  • Comment 125, posted at 24.11.16 11:18:35 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 124) : I remember reading something about Alex Ferguson when he was with Man U, He had it written into his contract that he earned the biggest salary at the club.So before a new record signing was settled Fergie’s salary was adjusted above the new player.
    He did it not out of greed but that way, everyone, players,administrators,the board the owners were int no doubt about who was in charge at the club.
    This is Coetzee’s problem not the salary but the fact that no one recognisers that he is in charge or deserves to be in charge. He has no one except the minister of sports respect

  • Comment 126, posted at 24.11.16 11:24:48 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 126) : Do you think SA players can handle a coach in the Ferguson mould? The no-nonsense , straight talking type that doesnt care if he makes a player dislike him. I only ask based on the reactions to the approach of John Mitchell at the Lions and Jake White at the Sharks. To me it seems SA players are quite fragile and need hugs more than honest truths.

  • Comment 127, posted at 24.11.16 11:29:33 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 127) : Boks have always done well with a coach who has chosen a strong captain,Kitch with Pienaar,Jake with John,and Mallet with Teich,his wheels fall off the moment he got rid of Gary.
    Meyer’s problems were with wishy washy Jean deVilliers who could never string two games together,Coetzee’s biggest mistake was his choice of captain.

  • Comment 128, posted at 24.11.16 12:06:03 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 128) : I think thats a good point. But do we have any of those strong leaders currently? or do we have decent leaders but those guys are still having their position in the team questioned by others?

  • Comment 129, posted at 24.11.16 12:14:41 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 129) : Duanne should have been the captain, and when he turned it down it should have gone to Whitely,
    Straus’s apointment was as much of un up you to Bismarck as it was anything else.

  • Comment 130, posted at 24.11.16 12:21:32 by The hound Reply
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  • @The hound (Comment 130) : Going into 2017 with Strauss gone, do you still believe it should go to Whiteley? And if it does do you think guys like Phillip Van Der Walt, Duane Vermuelen and other 8th men etc will deem it to be the end of their Bok careers and look to move or extend overseas contracts?

  • Comment 131, posted at 24.11.16 12:25:31 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 131) : Whiteley playing in the right gameplan is our best No8 and captain, but if we want to revert to 10 man old skool Saffa rugby then he is at best an impact player off the bench. You cannot have your captain playing in France, so if Duane can come back then maybe it should be him. There are no other properly qualified choices. I say give Whiteley a chance to build a team up to the World Cup, he will deliver. He can play flank too if needs be to fit Duane in.

  • Comment 132, posted at 24.11.16 12:31:18 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 132) : Whiteley hasnt been good on international stage, irrespective of the gameplan. Might he be better with a different gameplan and different players around him-maybe…but then should we only select players he the captain is happy with? You say he can play flank..so would people be happy with Whiteley playing out of position to accommodate him as captain? Surely we would want a fit and firing Vermuelen to play if possible? If Whiteley isnt on top form in Super rugby should he still be picked for his captain credentials? It can get tricky. I think Whiteley can certainly play a role…just for me at the moment that role is utility loose forward off the bench.

  • Comment 133, posted at 24.11.16 12:37:39 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 131) : I think that Vermullen should be the captain and the no 8.if not it must go to the next best captain Whitely.
    With Kitch sacrificed Tian Straus for Pienaar because Pienaar was a better captain,Jake sacrificed Bismark for John,then Walter Matthau,sacrficed his 17 winning test match captain for an injured Bobby Skinstad.

  • Comment 134, posted at 24.11.16 12:40:04 by The hound Reply
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    The houndAssistant coach
     
  • @The hound (Comment 134) : Thats kinda what i was asking…is the priority currently finding a good captain and playing him in his position irrespective of other consequences.
    Murphys law suggests Whiteley will get injured before the French series though…

  • Comment 135, posted at 24.11.16 12:43:39 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 133) : Not according to foreign journalists who look past Whiteley’s size, they see all the good he does. Look at weekly ratings (not from SA journos) and you’ll see Whiteley is usually a 7/10. If you want all bravado & trying to run over players go with Duane, if you want running into gaps, passing and putting other players into gaps go Whiteley. Also, Duane cannot touch Whiteley in the lineout. Horse for courses….

  • Comment 136, posted at 24.11.16 12:55:40 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 131) : Whoever gets picked as captain, it means the other contenders for that position will get very little game time, if any. Just look at the amount of time Marx and Bongi got this year even though Strauss was having a terrible season. Does that mean all other hookers in the country must now pack up and go overseas because the bok captain is a hooker and will start every test?

    When it comes to international vs local, I think there should be a limit on the number of international players a coach is allowed to pick. And only those with more than 30 (as an example) caps are allowed. Similar to Aus stance. And captain has to be local. Rugby is a team sport and you need the guys together for long periods of time to gel and play well together. It’s not like soccer where you can throw 11 stars from over the world together and they perform. Soccer relies more on individual brilliance than rugby

  • Comment 137, posted at 24.11.16 12:56:23 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 136) : Duane is also a good lineout option. Whiteley never used in the lineout so kind of a non issue. As ive said Whiteley does have a certain skillset BUT whether we choose to admit it or not the fact is that when compared to Read, Vunipola, Timani, Faletau,Heaslip …Whiteley cannot stop them getting over the advantage line and he cannot carry as effectively as them. Does that make him useless, no. But its still a fact.

  • Comment 138, posted at 24.11.16 13:00:38 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 137) : The question to ask is what player currently is assured of their position every week? Maybe PSDT & Eben, that’s it…

  • Comment 139, posted at 24.11.16 13:01:40 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 138) : The question is can any of those No8′s catch Whiteley, nope…and he can stop those players, best completed tackle count in Super Rugby for a forward…..it could even be overall…

  • Comment 140, posted at 24.11.16 13:03:37 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 137) : That i can agree with although i still think to rebuild our rugby we need to stick to local only for the next year or two. The point i was trying to make regarding other 8th men leaving etc is what is the current priority- having a good captain or having the ‘in-form’ players picked only. General consensus being that having the best captain in the first priority over anything.

  • Comment 141, posted at 24.11.16 13:03:45 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 139) : perhaps the answer to that is also the reason for the current problem…who is really standing out currently? (Taking away provincial bias if possible)

  • Comment 142, posted at 24.11.16 13:05:20 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/super-rugby-2016-fox-sports-lab-predicts-its-team-of-the-season/news-story/c6c1b24aacabed352145feeba1e78532

    No 8: Warren Whitley (Lions)

    In 2015 he produced an immense defensive effort, making the most tackles in the comp (213) while missing just eight with a 91 per cent efficiency rate.

  • Comment 143, posted at 24.11.16 13:07:04 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 140) : A counter question would be why do they need to catch him? We arent comparing wings or backline players. If Whiteley was breaking tackles and running away through the middle of the field then fair enough. But at the moment all i see is those 8th men making huge yards through the middle of the field killing their opposition. Whiteley has a god tackle count, cannot argue that…the thing the stats dont say are how far behind advantage line do those completed tackles take place. Again dont get the wrong idea…i don think Whiteley is a crap player. Im just pointing out the differences between him and the 8th men of the top rugby nations.

  • Comment 144, posted at 24.11.16 13:09:15 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 143) : U do realise 2015 has no bearing anymore and is of no consequence…just see comments regarding Lood De Jager and DeAllende…

  • Comment 145, posted at 24.11.16 13:10:44 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 145) : Yes, I do. Reading this from 2 weeks ago; https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/nov/12/england-south-africa-player-ratings-twickenham

    Warren Whiteley, No8 7/10 Another point of resistance. Lighter on his feet than the rest of the Springbok pack – and a few of the backs. Tackled relentlessly and class for South Africa’s first try.

  • Comment 146, posted at 24.11.16 13:18:55 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 144) : Let’s bring Pierre Spies back then and captain…

  • Comment 147, posted at 24.11.16 13:22:14 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 146) : They rated Vunipola also 7/10…now you tell me who had the bigger impact on the game. And how accurate those ratings are then

  • Comment 148, posted at 24.11.16 13:22:24 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 147) : He was decent for Montpelier for a couple games but i see he hasnt been in the side of late, injured maybe. Dont think he is a strong captain. Some ex players have suggested Handre Pollard should captain

  • Comment 149, posted at 24.11.16 13:25:02 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • I don’t think SA rugby has ever been as divided as it is right now. So many issues at the moment and everyone has different opinions. From the coach, his assistants, the captain, the gameplan, local vs international, team selections,quotas, provincialism. Tank Lanning’s latest column is quite good. I don’t have a link to it but he basically says we need leaders with balls to make the hard decisions. And at the moment we don’t have them..

  • Comment 150, posted at 24.11.16 13:25:50 by Leeubok Reply

    LeeubokVodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 148) : That!!!

  • Comment 151, posted at 24.11.16 13:27:55 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 149) : Pollard is about 3 years old, not ready for captaincy…

  • Comment 152, posted at 24.11.16 13:28:11 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 150) : http://www.sport24.co.za/Columnists/TankLanning/wanted-a-springbok-id-20161124

  • Comment 153, posted at 24.11.16 13:29:09 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 149) : All I can say is remember how ineffective the Sharks loosies were against the Bulls when we picked Keegan and Kanko in the same trio. Both superb players in their prime, but both also light linking players like Whiteley, but a poor balance…That is what is happening at the Boks, the loose trio balance never seems right.

  • Comment 154, posted at 24.11.16 13:29:54 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearAssistant coach
     
  • @Leeubok (Comment 150) : I saw that column and i agree

  • Comment 155, posted at 24.11.16 13:33:53 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 152) : Just interesting how New Zealanders see it differently. I dunno if id pick him as captain but prob pick him at 10, assuming he is semi decent in super rugby.

  • Comment 156, posted at 24.11.16 13:35:13 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 154) : Balance is definitely off.

  • Comment 157, posted at 24.11.16 13:36:01 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • I would like to see PSdT doing some work with AJ Venter. There was nobody better than AJ at switching between the second row and back row. He excelled in both positions. I am sure he could teach PSdT a trick or two, and I’m sure PSdT would be a much better player for it.

  • Comment 158, posted at 24.11.16 13:37:09 by Dancing Bear Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Dancing BearAssistant coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 154) : Agreed, you can’t have two linking players. For me you need a tall/heavy ball carrier (ala Juan Smith), a fetcher (ala Brussouw) and a linking No8 (ala Whiteley). SA generally prefers a bruising No8, but have picked linking No8 in the past, like Teichmann. I’m no Lions supporter, but I quite liked Tecklenburg as a fetcher, also Vellerman and Cloete. Maybe going forward Doop or Jacques Du Plessis should be our new Juan Smith type. Big bruising and powerful. PSDT with time could perfect that role too. For me the future locks should be RG Snyman and Jason Jenkins, real scary types of players….Jason the enforcer…

  • Comment 159, posted at 24.11.16 13:37:31 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 159) : I really think it extends beyond your loose trio and its the combination of the pack. Are there enough good ball carriers, enough hard hitting tacklers, enough lineout options, are there players that can play to the ball and disrupt rucks etc. So for me it goes beyond just the loose forwards. If you pick 2 very mobile locks you can afford to play a bigger heavier loose trio etc. For me its a pack as a combo

  • Comment 160, posted at 24.11.16 13:40:44 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Dancing Bear (Comment 158) : Danie Rossouw was better ;-)

  • Comment 161, posted at 24.11.16 13:44:53 by The hound Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    The houndAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 160) : My biggest wish was to see the Du Preez twins and Marcel Coetzee,together for a season at the Sharks.

  • Comment 162, posted at 24.11.16 13:47:48 by The hound Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    The houndAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 160) : Good point. Your hooker should be an extra loose forward, which I think Marx covers. My future pack;

    1) Thomas du Toit (NEVER ever play him tighhead again) – he is the new Os
    2) Marx (just practice throwing in boy, everyday)
    3) Frans Malherbe (until a brute comes through from school level)
    4) Jason Jenkins (the enforcer)
    5) RG Snyman (the jumper)
    6) Tecklenburg or Vellerman (fetcher)
    7) Jacques du Plessis (ball carrier)
    8) Whiteley (link man and Captain)

    Eben can rotate with Jenkins and Doop with du Plessis. Paul Willemse could also be an option. Loosehead cover would be Ox Nche & Nqoboka..

  • Comment 163, posted at 24.11.16 13:49:30 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @The hound (Comment 162) : I fully concur

  • Comment 164, posted at 24.11.16 13:50:54 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 163) : Overall id be satisfied with your team there. Although cant say i fully agree with 4 and 6, even 7 to a lessor extent. Also not sure how good a defensive unit those guys are, but they arent bad tacklers either.

  • Comment 165, posted at 24.11.16 13:56:00 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 165) : Probably more a team for the next WC not the now. Needing a bit more experience. Coetzee would bring that when fit again.

  • Comment 166, posted at 24.11.16 13:57:25 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 163) : Malherbe has been pathetic this year another one suffering from Spies syndrome,I like that young Dylan Smith,PSDT is a wonderful player just being badly managed,Lewies will be the form lock this season,and come the next WC ,Marcel should captain and both twins will be in the run on.

  • Comment 167, posted at 24.11.16 14:02:16 by The hound Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    The houndAssistant coach
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 166) : Yeh fair enough. I think they trying to get Kitshoff back to CT from next year which will be a good move. Going into the French Series you could bolster you lineup with say 1. DuToit 2. Marx 3. Malherbe 4. Etzabeth 5. DuToit 6. Coetzee 7. DuPreez 8. Whiteley and bench of Nche, Van Der Merwe, Adriaanse (very short good scrummagers), Snyman, Kriel

  • Comment 168, posted at 24.11.16 14:02:55 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @The hound (Comment 167) : Agree, but we very very very short of good tightheads. Adriaanse for me is like a carthorse. Any other young tighheads coming through? Marcel could be a good shout on captaincy but he would need to move back to SA..

  • Comment 169, posted at 24.11.16 14:06:27 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 168) : Exactly! We have some good young talent and depth too. Gelant coming back will help too..

  • Comment 170, posted at 24.11.16 14:08:24 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 170) : Yeh we definitely have the talent…but if not combined well and with the commitment on the field from them its to no avail. I will be interested to see how a few guys go in Super rugby next year…think a team like the Bulls could be a surprise package if they get the right team on the field

  • Comment 171, posted at 24.11.16 14:12:48 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • Im very curious to see what team AC picks this week. Some expect wholesale changes, some say only a few will change. Strauss’s last Bok game…maybe AC too…

  • Comment 172, posted at 24.11.16 14:29:03 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonKAssistant coach
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 140) : Stats! One can use stats to manipulate almost any point of view. The stats don’t indicate wether the player was left dangling off the opposing players jersey, or rattled his bones! So tackle count in the context of what we are lamenting
    is inconsequential

  • Comment 173, posted at 24.11.16 15:21:07 by KingCheetah Reply

    KingCheetahTeam captain
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 173) : I know that mate, been a coach a while now. Hence the term ‘completed’ tackle, so bringing the player to ground. Whiteley does that due to superior tackling ‘technique’, heard of that. Just because he is not smashing players back doesn’t mean he is not stopping them. My point is made. SA rugby will continue to fixate itself on size and bouncing players…..whilst the rest of the world runs around players and into gaps…

  • Comment 174, posted at 24.11.16 15:27:02 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 173) : Another great example is Schalk, looked busy running about like a headless chicken, but his ball retention and placement was poor. He knocked on half the time and messed up good opportunities running in the flyhalf channel, but because he looked busy he was amazing. Most overrated player in SA, especially in the past 4 years.

  • Comment 175, posted at 24.11.16 15:29:01 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 175) : I’ll second that

  • Comment 176, posted at 24.11.16 15:38:16 by The hound Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    The houndAssistant coach
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 175) : Those tournament stats of “2,964 carries, 3m gained” made for painful reading… :mrgreen:

  • Comment 177, posted at 24.11.16 17:52:59 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling SongTeam captain
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 177) : Wasn’t it 2,964 carriers and minus 74m made? ;-)

  • Comment 178, posted at 24.11.16 18:01:13 by Grasshopper Reply

    GrasshopperVodacom Cup player
     
  • @Grasshopper (Comment 178) : Hmmm, possibly, I’ll have to revisit the stats. I do know that on a few occasions he tripped while holding onto the ball, and managed to fall over the gain line…

  • Comment 179, posted at 24.11.16 18:05:15 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling SongTeam captain
     

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