Changing coach now will accomplish nothing

Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :Original Content, Springboks on 25 Aug 2008 at 09:50
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The funny thing about Saturday’s loss to the Aussies? The most overwhelming feeling I had was neither one of disappointment, nor of outrage; it was one of deja vu.

South Africa has only won the Tr-Nations twice since its inception, once in 1998 under Nick Mallet and again in 2004 under Jake White. The World Cup win notwithstanding, even White delivered some incredibly mediocre results over the course of his four years in charge, none more so than the 49-0 whitewash we suffered in Perth in 2006. The thing we need to bear in mind here is that no South African coach can claim to have enjoyed regular and on-going success in this competition and that even the ones we hold up as great, the Malletts and Whites, failed more often then they succeeded in the Tri-Nations. It is New Zealand’s competition and only a fool would say otherwise, given the fact that they have won it 9 years out of 12.

The Boks were atrocious on Saturday, of that there is no doubt, but it really gets my back up when I hear the kind of dumb vitriol that is all over the airwaves at the moment: “Worst performance ever”, “Boks in crisis”, “The coach is out of his depth”. The Boks ARE kak now, but they are by no means worse than they have been on any number of occasions in the recent past and have bounced back on every occasion.

Andre Markgraaff lost a series at home to New Zealand in 1996 – the first time that had ever happened to the Boks. The team weren’t behind him, that much was clear, as they all expected him to be an exact clone of their beloved Kitch Christie. Markgraaf persevered and delivered a Bok team that played some truly superb rugby on the end-of-year tour, including two wins over a strong French team. Carel du Plessis got stuffed by every man and his dog in the 97 Tri-Nations, until the team finally caught on. Anyone remember us putting 60 points past the Aussies in the Boks best all-round display against Antipodean opposition in a decade? Of course, we mustn’t forget either that Jake White’s 49-0 nadir came not quite 18 months before the famous victory in Paris last October.

The point here is that there IS no point in clamouring for de Villiers’ head at this stage. Being Bok coach is generally considered the most difficult job in world rugby and let’s face it, they all struggle at first. The typical South African player seems to have a very strong mentality of inertia – call it resistance to change, if you will. Given the time and support that he needs (and the buy-in of his senior players) de Villiers will turn the Boks around. If anything, history must surely have taught us that lesson.

I for one am really looking forward to seeing the Boks playing with the speed and skill that de Villiers envisions, play we last saw on the cusp of the du Plessis-Mallett era. I’ll take that any day over the boring Bulls one-trick-ponyism we would now be seeing had Heyneke Meyer been elected coach. I mean, honestly, when did Robbie Deans ever struggle to counter the oh-so-predictable “Game Plan” that was Meyer’s stock in trade?


  • It seems to like the open style play has the loosies hanging around in the backline too much instead of cleaning out the rucks. Now backline players must clear rucks which they are not doing. especially against Smith & Waugh.
    Weak points were dropping ball especially Conrade, TO ball at breakdown, poor lineouts at least 6 I counted although stats said 3.
    The Aussies took their chances and we only took 2 of ours

  • Comment 1, posted at 25.08.08 10:05:48 by Ernie Reply
  • “South Africa has only won the Tr-Nations twice since its inception, once in 1998 under Nick Mallet and again in 2004 under Jake White.”

    And they had good leaders – Teich and Smitty were the captains. While big Vic is in charge, we are going to achieve the big Zip.

    1995 RWC – We won. Great captain in Pienaar.
    1999 RWC – We lost. Great captain dropped.
    2003 RWC – We lost. Krige was captain. Say no more.
    2007 RWC – We won. Great Captain in Smit.

    Coach is important, but don’t ever discount a good captain.

  • Comment 2, posted at 25.08.08 10:12:01 by Baldrick Reply
  • @Baldrick (Comment 2) : also true… maybe one of White’s greatest failings as a coach was that he never developed a capable stand-in captain for Smit…

  • Comment 3, posted at 25.08.08 10:16:44 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Ernie (Comment 1) :


  • Comment 4, posted at 25.08.08 10:20:14 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @robdylan (Comment 3) : Or back up flyhalf.

  • Comment 5, posted at 25.08.08 10:22:17 by molly Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 3) : oh, and Pretorius and van der Westhuizen don’t count.

  • Comment 6, posted at 25.08.08 10:25:20 by molly Reply
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  • Hi ppl. Was at the game Saturday and let me tell you.. Boks played [email protected] and have big problems because they couldn’t even get the basics right

  • Comment 7, posted at 25.08.08 10:33:10 by Reds Reply

  • @robdylan (Comment 3) : Leaders are not always groomed. Captain’s maybe, but not leaders and there are few of those around.

    Funny, the best seem to be tight 5ers. Fitzpatrick, Eales, Andrews, Johnson, Smitty.

    Although the loosies have had some capable ones – Teich, Avos (I liked him), de Laglio, Pienaar.

  • Comment 8, posted at 25.08.08 10:41:11 by Baldrick Reply

  • @Reds (Comment 7) : now where have I heard that before? 😉

  • Comment 9, posted at 25.08.08 11:04:28 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 9) : lol I know everybody said it but remember I’m a AB supporter who went down to watch the game and I hoped that the Boks are going to at least help the AB’s by winning some games but now it seems we will just have to do it all by ourselfs :mrgreen:

  • Comment 10, posted at 25.08.08 11:10:09 by Reds Reply

  • Our problems are easily solved, commit more to the ruck and actually ensure our ball. Then we can speculate about the game plan. At the moment its hard to see if Div’s actually good or bad, because his team seems incapable of actually keeping the ball beyond the first phase……

    That and hopefully the likes of Vic, Butch, Juan, CJ et al can find some form.

  • Comment 11, posted at 25.08.08 11:34:45 by Sauce Reply
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  • @Sauce (Comment 11) : Those seeking to crucify him will say it’s all his fault, of course

  • Comment 12, posted at 25.08.08 11:40:34 by robdylan Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 4) : Sorry,not Conrade but Conrad Jantjes

  • Comment 13, posted at 25.08.08 11:50:28 by Ernie Reply

  • First up I am a PDV supporter and do not want him fired but he DOES need to make a change or two.

    @Sauce (Comment 11) :

    At the moment its hard to see if Div’s actually good or bad, because his team seems incapable of actually keeping the ball beyond the first phase……

    SO TRUE, but as I have alluded to on the other thread.
    Is it not PDV that has elected not to use Sheryl Calder and/or a mind coach? Could some of this lack of holding the ball through the phases be because of a lack of ball skill (hand eye coordination) and concentration?

    I know this non-committal of players to break down points is losing us quite a bit of possession but not all our turnover comes from lost break downs, a lot of it comes from silly passes, knocks and kak decisions.

  • Comment 14, posted at 25.08.08 11:55:11 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @Ernie (Comment 13) :
    Oh okay thanks.

    had me confused there.

  • Comment 15, posted at 25.08.08 11:55:49 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • Ok, just hypothetically(??) who would you hire as coach if PdV gets fired?

  • Comment 16, posted at 25.08.08 12:16:46 by molly Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 14) :

    Yea agreed, but at the same time our ball retention is atrocious – the stats were something like 16 turn overs and 17 handling errors – thats 33 times in 80 minutes we gave the Aussies the ball.
    Its hard to even begin looking at how we are trying to play when we spend the game giving the ball to the opposistion.

  • Comment 17, posted at 25.08.08 12:17:19 by Sauce Reply
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  • @molly (Comment 16) : cannot even begin to think of a candidate.

  • Comment 18, posted at 25.08.08 12:27:03 by robdylan Reply
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  • @molly (Comment 16) : I here Fester is looking for work 😐

  • Comment 19, posted at 25.08.08 12:28:29 by PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) Reply
  • here = hear 🙄
    but that is a freaking good question Sauce

  • Comment 20, posted at 25.08.08 12:30:04 by PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) Reply
  • @PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) (Comment 20) : Sauce??? You just don’t want to give ladies any credit, do you? 😈

  • Comment 21, posted at 25.08.08 12:40:12 by molly Reply
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  • 23/08/2008 20:23 – (SA)

    Jy dop, mnr. Blaser! J.J. Harmse (Durban)

    Die Aussie-skeidsregter Matt Goddard hét verlede week ’n druipsyfer gekry vir sy hantering van die Drienasies-toets tussen Suid-Afrika en Nieu-Seeland in Kaapstad.

    Rapport het vasgestel dat die Aussie-blaser veral vir sy hantering van die afbreekpunte deurgeloop het.

    Ironies genoeg was dit juis oor dié afdeling van die spel dat die Bok-breier, Peter de Villiers, sy frustrasie uitgespreek het ná die toets en homself daardeur die gramskap van die Internasionale Rugbyraad (IRR) op die hals gehaal het.

    De Villiers is kwaai deur die IRR se skeidsregterbaas, Paddy O’Brien, uitgetrap weens uitlatings oor Goddard se hantering van die wedstryd.

    Sake het só versleg dat Suid-Afrika se skeidsregterbaas, André Watson, ’n vergadering tussen O’Brien en De Villiers belê het. Die twee praat Donderdagaand in Johannesburg.

    De Villiers is veral ongelukkig omdat hy nie voor wedstryde met die betrokke skeidsregter mag praat nie.

    Hieroor sê Watson: “Daar is in April besluit skeidsregters mag nie meer voor wedstryde met afrigters praat nie. Daar is wel ’n kans om dit te doen, maar dan moet albei afrigters voor die tyd instem en albei moet teenwoordig wees.

    “My ervaring is dat sulke ontmoetings nie altyd suksesvol is nie en dit plaas nog verdere druk op die skeidsregter. Hy kan net blaas wat hy sien.”

    Watson wou hom nie uitlaat oor Goddard se “toetspunt” nie, maar gee toe dat die proefreëls vanjaar sake vir al die rolspelers moeiliker gemaak het.

    Hy het begrip vir De Villiers se frustrasies, maar meen nie daar is ’n veldtog teen Suid-Afrikaanse spanne nie.

    “Die nuutste uitbarsting was nie goed vir ons beeld nie en daarom het ek vir Peter en Paddy bymekaar gekry. Dit is belangrik dat die twee gesels en dinge uitstryk,” het Watson gesê.

    O’Brien het die Bok-kamp ook daarvan beskuldig dat hulle nie hul wedstrydverslae ná toetse inlewer soos deur die IRR vereis word nie, maar volgens Watson was daar ’n misverstand.

    “Hulle moet dit ná elke toets doen, maar die Bok-bestuur het verstaan dat hulle die Drienasies-verslae almal aan die einde van die reeks op een slag instuur. Ons het dit reggestel en die verslae is opgestel,” het hy verduidelik.

    Die Bok-afrigter se uitbarstings teenoor skeidsregters het ’n gereelde tema geword sedert De Villiers die leisels by Jake White oorgeneem het.

    De Villiers is gretig om voor die tyd met die skeidsregter te praat, veral omdat hy die interpretasie van sekere situasies met hom wil uitklaar.

    Hy het wel met Goddard gesels voor die Bokke se wentoets in Dunedin, iets wat sy argument versterk om dit meer gereeld te doen.

    O’Brien het vroeër in die week toegegee dat Goddard nie foutloos was nie, maar gesê dat die Springbok-kaptein, Victor Matfield, sy perke oorskry het deur deurentyd Goddard se beslissings te bevraagteken.

    “Dit is nie iets wat ons sal duld nie,” het die gewese Kiwi-blaser gesê.

  • Comment 22, posted at 25.08.08 12:45:13 by Charlie Reply

  • @Sauce (Comment 17) : If the guys want to play an expansive game, the risk you run is turn overs(getting isolated) and knocking the ball(giving the ball air)… thats where NZ is so good with the expansive game, any one of their backline players can clean a ruck, great handling, the 2 areas we fall short.
    If i was the coach, i would concentrate on teaching the boys to calm down when in the oppostions 22. we get over eager in their 22, thus we get isolated or passing a 50/50 pass. the problem is not getting in their 22 (that weve done quite alot) the problem is converting on the times we get into their 22.

  • Comment 23, posted at 25.08.08 12:47:36 by VanWilder Reply

  • @Charlie (Comment 22) : BTW, I do feel that PDV at least got the attention of the referees, for imo the ref was quite good this time around. His touch judges could have done a bit better.

    @VanWilder (Comment 23) : It is maybe the biggest problem that I have picked up, that our players in the thinking on their feet department are a million miles behind both Australia and the AB’s.

  • Comment 24, posted at 25.08.08 12:55:15 by Silver Fox Reply

    Silver Fox
  • A very good article amoungst the madness of the fallout from Saturday. I suppore the passionate uproar is the same passion that makes us pay R4oo plus for tickets!

  • Comment 25, posted at 25.08.08 13:07:41 by billy Reply

  • @molly (Comment 21) : my eyes are still screwy!

  • Comment 26, posted at 25.08.08 13:18:44 by PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) Reply
  • @PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) (Comment 26) :

    You recovered from the weskus yet?? 😉

  • Comment 27, posted at 25.08.08 13:20:50 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • I do believe that any work it is the leader that takes the glory for success and the blame for failure.

    I think the coach has a major charge to answer to.

    He has made the Boks non competitive. Not the players.

    Bottom line is you can’t really blame the players totally, the coach picks the players and defines the strategy.

    If players are not delivering it his responsibility to pick different players, motivate them or change the tactics.

    In business as a manager you carry the can if staff fail to delivery, blaming your team does not hold water. Rugby is a business and the buck stops with Snor.

    White was loved when winning and hated when losing.

    That is how it goes.

  • Comment 28, posted at 25.08.08 13:21:24 by beez Reply

  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 27) : Dont call me, i can’t speak.

  • Comment 29, posted at 25.08.08 13:39:05 by PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) Reply
  • @PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) (Comment 29) :

    Ok – tune me in brail…How was it?? :mrgreen: 😉 And how the hell can’t you speak?? what DID you do?? 😯 😀

  • Comment 30, posted at 25.08.08 13:46:01 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 30) : ➡ 😛 ❗ ❓ 😎 ❓ ❓ ❓ 😀

  • Comment 31, posted at 25.08.08 13:53:53 by PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) Reply
  • @PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) (Comment 31) :

    THAT good, huh?? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  • Comment 32, posted at 25.08.08 13:57:18 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 30) : He sucked up the ocean, he is feeling bloated.

    Experts probe ‘mini tsunami’
    25/08/2008 07:55 – (SA)

    Jana Breytenbach, Die Burger

    Cape Town – A mini tsunami may be the reason for the sudden rise and fall of the sea level along the West Coast over the last few days.

    The National Sea Rescue Institute (NSRI) received reports that the sea level in Hout Bay, St Helena Bay, Saldanha Bay and Lambert’s Bay changed suddenly three times on Thursday.

    In Hout Bay, the water level first fell by a metre and then rose again by the same amount in the space of 20 minutes.


  • Comment 33, posted at 25.08.08 13:59:05 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) (Comment 31) :

    Is this one of those: “F^&K if I knew i was going to be this thirsty this morning, i would have drank a LOT more last night” situations?


  • Comment 34, posted at 25.08.08 14:00:33 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 34) : duuuuuuuuuuuude

  • Comment 35, posted at 25.08.08 14:02:44 by PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) Reply
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 33) :

    KSA – I did noy know you went for a swim on the West coast… 😈

  • Comment 36, posted at 25.08.08 14:04:07 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 33) :

    HAHAHA – PJLD drank it and then you went for a swim! (see – I read the WHOLE commenst 2nd time round)… 😉

  • Comment 37, posted at 25.08.08 14:05:17 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @molly (Comment 16) : I have no idea.

    Some dude today said he didn’t support RSA anyway because we don’t pick our best players. “Like who? ” I asked. I’m still waiting for the response.

  • Comment 38, posted at 25.08.08 14:07:55 by blackshark Reply

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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 37) : Mail them the answer Ice

    @blackshark (Comment 38) : Niiiiice

  • Comment 39, posted at 25.08.08 14:13:36 by PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) Reply
  • @beez (Comment 28) : When a team collectively hands over the ball 33 times in 80 minutes its hard to pin it on the man wearing a suit and tie in the coaches box…..I supect the players feel differently to the media drivel they trot out about buying into Divs game plan.

    But your point about different players is correct…..

  • Comment 40, posted at 25.08.08 14:16:54 by Sauce Reply
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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 36) : :mrgreen:

    Ja ou “groot gat”

    A bit of a “had to be there ” comment that.

    My favourite line to the locals here when I am out shopping is “Gee pad groot gat” all with a nice polite smile on my face. 😳

    One day one of them will understand me. 😳

  • Comment 41, posted at 25.08.08 14:21:13 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @Sauce (Comment 40) : I kinda feel sorry for the coach in a way because I think when he devised this expansive plan thingy…he was under the “false” impression that he’ll be dealing with professionals who can catch , pass and kick . Little did he know…

  • Comment 42, posted at 25.08.08 14:22:10 by blackshark Reply

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  • @PJLD(RIP Bernie Mac) (Comment 39) :

    Pssst….(Whats the question) and who must i mail…”die Burger”? 😉

  • Comment 43, posted at 25.08.08 14:22:27 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @Sauce (Comment 40) :

    That’s very true Sauce.

    But in the same recpect the reson we coughed up the ball so often was because the boys weren’t hitting the rucks in numbers. Mostly becuase they were stnaidng in the backline waiting to swing the ball.

    And they surely weren’t doing that themselves – well except for flyhalf Watson that is.
    That’s game-plan and it needs to change.

  • Comment 44, posted at 25.08.08 14:23:31 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 41) :

    dont get snotty because you did not see that one coming… :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  • Comment 45, posted at 25.08.08 14:24:53 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • I see no other name at this article Rob, so I take it you wrote all that by yourself. 😈
    Well done then, for I am one who always plead the case of tolerance with a coach. It is not possible to achieve greatness in a short space of time. Therefore the powers that be should invest in a coach for a cetain period(4 years minimum!!!!) and then back him up no matter what. Surely by falling for the public outcry ( and the public will ), they admit by firing a coach OR by putting him under further pressure that they have not done their homework when they appointed him.

    Now I say, give PDV at least 4 years(what about 8?), let him choose his own captain (preferably young ) and watch them take us places. Otherwise their system stinks.

  • Comment 46, posted at 25.08.08 14:29:08 by Silver Fox Reply

    Silver Fox
  • @blackshark (Comment 42) : Yea look anyone who thinks we have the ball skills of the Aussies or Kiwis..they still have much to learn. But at the same time Can anyone recall Vic dropping as many balls as he has in the past few weeks…We are missing our basics.

    @VinChainSaw (Comment 44) : Yea agreed, the gameplan, especially the breakdown needs some serious attention. But i don’t think we need to discard the whole thing, the coaches and the players need to understand that the basics come before the the swanning and glory.

  • Comment 47, posted at 25.08.08 14:29:48 by Sauce Reply
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  • @Silver Fox (Comment 46) : I agree…at least 4 years…

  • Comment 48, posted at 25.08.08 14:30:14 by blackshark Reply

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  • @Silver Fox (Comment 46) : @blackshark (Comment 48) :

    Which is fair…but yu gonna get bitching and moaning…people want to support winning teams – and just think about this for a second…he got handed a World Cup winning team…we expected him to build on that…not start anew and lose vital games…sorry – but he should work with the platform (and a donnerse goeie een) he got given – not build his own completely form scratch – thats just dumb.

    i will give him my support, but then he must show some wiser moves too and experiment on the sidelines..

  • Comment 49, posted at 25.08.08 14:34:35 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @blackshark (Comment 38) : See now that pisses me off so much. Let me know if you ever get a response.

  • Comment 50, posted at 25.08.08 14:45:14 by molly Reply
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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 49) : Underling my point(Oh how proud am I to calls ourselves World Champions) that we were very, VERY LUCKY the way things have turned out for us in the World Cup and subsequently that team was not all THAT wonderfull.

  • Comment 51, posted at 25.08.08 14:46:16 by Silver Fox Reply

    Silver Fox
  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 49) : But in the same breath, he’s a coach, he wants to win with his gameplan, he doesn’t want to be the next JW, he wants to be the first PdeV. He must do what he wants cause it’ll be his head that rolls.

  • Comment 52, posted at 25.08.08 14:47:32 by molly Reply
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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 49) : This WC winning team is not playing as such…these guys shouldn’t be this bad EVER…even without a coach. This

    But honestly…maybe some of these dogs are too old to learn new tricks so let’s give him a chance to work with a fresh bunch of guys who are not so programmed that when you tell them to erase or modify a small part of their rugby knowledge- they erase everything they’ve ever been taught…since they were aged 5. 👿

  • Comment 53, posted at 25.08.08 14:49:15 by blackshark Reply

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  • A true measure of how good a coach PDV is will be revealed in the next 2 or 3 matches, a. In how well he turns around a dismal performance, and b. the consistency of a good performance

  • Comment 54, posted at 25.08.08 14:54:45 by Ollie Reply

  • @Ollie (Comment 54) : Sure thing Ollie…it’s been a roller-coaster start…as expected …let’s wait and see what happens in the next 3 games or so…

    We punished some minnows, were over the moon after Dunedin…and then we’ve seen some despicable performances which led to us losing the 3N…and that sucks…but we should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water…

  • Comment 55, posted at 25.08.08 15:03:10 by blackshark Reply

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  • @Silver Fox (Comment 51) : @Silver Fox (Comment 51) : @molly (Comment 52) : @blackshark (Comment 53) :

    Point being…there was a good platform…you dont win WC’s JUST on luck…

    And – I have nothing against PdV – I just feel he could have used what he got a bit more to his own advantage – but on the other hand – BS – if professional rugby players refuse to adapt ….by all means – bring in the young guns…yeah you gonna piss a rugby nation of for say 2-3 years – but eventually you might get the results…

  • Comment 56, posted at 25.08.08 15:08:05 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 56) :

    That’s the delicate balancing act. Facts are that SA has never been a team that constantly won matches, ala NZ, using their natural way of playing. And along with introduction of the ELV’s a new style is required. Whether PDV is the answer remains to be seen, but who else is there that can be a success for sure. 2-3 years is too long too wait, but 3 months is also too short to asking for heads.

  • Comment 57, posted at 25.08.08 15:14:12 by Ollie Reply

  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 56) : I see what you mean…and I think most people (including me) would’ve been tempted to take the same approach if we were in PdV’s shoes.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but I think you are saying PdV should’ve kept the structure and plan similar to the one we used to win the WC…win a couple of games…and maybe a couple of fans…and then start with the experimenting…say after this 3N. Yes???

  • Comment 58, posted at 25.08.08 15:15:26 by blackshark Reply

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  • @Silver Fox (Comment 51) : OMG. We were second favourites going into the WC! Luck is when Wales, for example, wins the WC. Come on man, Aussie lost to kak England who we absolutely smashed in the group stage. Actually, this is another point I’d like to raise. In terms of defensive and attacking rugby, the Boks have always been slap bang in between the northern hemisphere and Aussie/NZ. If you think about it, it’s the perfect place to be when it comes to winning WC’s. We could blow all and sundry away in the group stages and still have the ability to grind out wins in knockouts.

  • Comment 59, posted at 25.08.08 15:17:34 by klempie Reply

  • @blackshark (Comment 58) : Agreed. What’s he’s done is take an egotistical approach so that he can stamp PDV on the Boks before it gets sent out for display. He’s been senseless in terms of building and tweaking from the WC squad.

  • Comment 60, posted at 25.08.08 15:19:22 by klempie Reply

  • @blackshark (Comment 58) :

    Sorry if it sound stupid, but something to that effect…introducing “his” gameplan a bit more subtly so to speak…but – then again – you know what I know of the game – so if i get a lot of :mrgreen: :mrgreen: it would be understandable.

    I think one need to win hearts and then start your shit! 😈 😈

  • Comment 61, posted at 25.08.08 15:19:49 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @klempie (Comment 59) :

    Provided that you place more importance on winning the RWC than on consistent results in the other 3 years.

  • Comment 62, posted at 25.08.08 15:22:49 by Ollie Reply

  • @Ollie (Comment 62) : Tell me which the All Blacks would rather have. 7 Trinations or 2 WC titles…I think I know which. And anyway, that is irrelevant. My personal belief is that if JW had stayed, we’d have walked this Trinations.

  • Comment 63, posted at 25.08.08 15:25:15 by klempie Reply

  • @Ollie (Comment 62) :

    There’s has been no consistency now – would it not have been consistent if he used what he got and then slowly started implementing changes?

  • Comment 64, posted at 25.08.08 15:27:34 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @klempie (Comment 59) : We were second favourites? 😯

    In my mind we were…but I didn’t see a lot of people giving us a chance.
    The media thought even the Pommies were gonna klap us…

    I think it’s an inferiority complex thing that we raise our kids to believe that they cannot be as skillful as their NZ counterparts and it is for this reason that I hope PdV’s dream becomes reality…hopefully in MY lifetime. We all know what rugby is supposed to look like…

  • Comment 65, posted at 25.08.08 15:27:45 by blackshark Reply

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  • @blackshark (Comment 65) :

    I think it’s an inferiority complex thing that we raise our kids to believe that they cannot be as skillful as their NZ counterparts and it is for this reason that I hope PdV’s dream becomes reality…hopefully in MY lifetime. We all know what rugby is supposed to look like…


  • Comment 66, posted at 25.08.08 15:29:46 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @klempie (Comment 63) :

    Let’s ask it this way, do you think the AB supporters would be happier to only have won 2 3N cups, have a average win record about 15% lower, and yoyo between the 5th and 2nd positions with only brief visits to the #1 spot.

    However, I must agree that overall I would have preferred JW to stay on. But then again, I think that the main problem is in the general structures (or lack thereof) through the age group ranks and club rugby.

  • Comment 67, posted at 25.08.08 15:31:05 by Ollie Reply

  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 61) : Ok…but you do realise that this plan was only gonna work if the team kept on winning…

  • Comment 68, posted at 25.08.08 15:32:12 by blackshark Reply

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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 64) :

    In hindsight, yes. But we all know that hindsight is 20/20. The question now that we know the new style does not work is whether to drop back to old style or just push through.

  • Comment 69, posted at 25.08.08 15:33:09 by Ollie Reply

  • @blackshark (Comment 65) : The bookies had us as second favourites bro, some third. Still. We were up there with NZ and Aus.

    “our kids to believe that they cannot be as skillful as their NZ counterparts and it is for this reason that I hope PdV’s dream becomes reality…hopefully in MY lifetime.”

    You make it sound as if we’re unable to play attractive rugby which gets my back up. We are more conservative than Aus and NZ but how can anyone say that our WC campaign was boring rugby?? How?? We were dynamite on attack. Now look at us. Chumps!

  • Comment 70, posted at 25.08.08 15:33:46 by klempie Reply

  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 66) :

    Ok – wait wait – I amen ‘ed on the part that I wish for his dreams to come true and for the fact about us feeling inferior to NZ…but together in one statement as you put it it does not make sense to me..

    I never wish upon anyone to fail…

    why is the fact that SA people bring up their children….the reason why you want him to suceed – or have I missed something..

    What is rugby suppose to look like?

  • Comment 71, posted at 25.08.08 15:36:18 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @Ollie (Comment 69) : I’d be disappointed if he didn’t stick to his guns for a bit longer. But there is a fine line between sticking up for a pattern you believe in and being stubborn. We’ll have to see, but everyone wanting to push the panic button now are being a little twitchy (for lack of a better word, or any word)

  • Comment 72, posted at 25.08.08 15:36:57 by molly Reply
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  • @klempie (Comment 70) :

    We mostly played Minnows in the RWC, apart from England, so the attack looked sharp. Aside from the England drubbing it was not surprising.

    PDV’s Boks have only played one team that JW’s did during the RWC) and that is the Argies, look what the score was there.

  • Comment 73, posted at 25.08.08 15:38:09 by Ollie Reply

  • @klempie (Comment 70) : We weren’t THAT dynamite on attack, we thrived off the other teams mistakes, especially against Arg. And we nearly lost to Tonga 😯

  • Comment 74, posted at 25.08.08 15:38:25 by molly Reply
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  • @molly (Comment 72) :

    I would also like to see him stick to his guns, but as the coach, if he can’t make it work in the next couple of games then he has to do some self refelection (if not already) and decide on a couple of things:
    1. If he truly believes his game plan can work
    2. If so, whether he is a good enough to coach the plan
    3. Whether he needs to change game plan
    4. If he should vacate his seat for the sake of SA rugby.

    Only decisions he can make

  • Comment 75, posted at 25.08.08 15:41:37 by Ollie Reply

  • @blackshark (Comment 68) :

    BS – I believed we would have – but obviously i have no proof. Thing is – too many people were against pieter being apointed – people dont adapt to change very lekker- or most people anyway – so – as I said – for HIMSELF – to get the people behind him and to trust him, he maybe should have tried to win and then experiment…

    @Ollie (Comment 69) :

    Good question Ollie….pride might be in the way of changing back…so then hopefully the players commit and we get it right…however long THAT might take…but one thing I agree – its too soon to say sack him – give him a fair shot – but he is gonna get flack – he should realise that – if he does not succeed..

  • Comment 76, posted at 25.08.08 15:42:49 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @molly (Comment 74) : We nearly lost to Tonga because of the arrogance that put NZ and Aus out of the WC. 36-0 says we were dynamite. Full stop.

  • Comment 77, posted at 25.08.08 15:45:41 by klempie Reply

  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 76) :

    Ice, the coaches even get flack in SA if they do succeed. JW, anyone! 😆

  • Comment 78, posted at 25.08.08 15:52:20 by Ollie Reply

  • @Ollie (Comment 78) :

    Ja Ja…you know what i mean… 😉

  • Comment 79, posted at 25.08.08 15:55:27 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @klempie (Comment 77) : Against a below average english team? Tell me, where is Andy Farrell now? We all know the English team is nothing at WC’s without Wilkinson.

  • Comment 80, posted at 25.08.08 15:57:42 by molly Reply
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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 79) :

    I for one was a pro-JW…long before he even applied or considered a SB coach job…I said he should be our coach…needless – I got flack…but look where my “vision” got us…A blooming RWC title….and you all think YOU know all!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  • Comment 81, posted at 25.08.08 15:58:14 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • Here is a perfect example of how the media can spin stories. Quite relevant to the clown article this am.

    News 24:
    De Villiers: I’m responsible
    25/08/2008 15:26
    Beleaguered Springbok coach Peter de Villiers says he’s happy to take responsibility for his team’s poor results in the Tri-Nations.

    Finger pointed at players
    Posted on August 25th,

    Peter de Villiers says the Springbok players’ need to sharpen their execution as his expansive strategy is here to stay.

  • Comment 82, posted at 25.08.08 16:01:11 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • I meant RSA rugby can be more attractive. To raise our kids to believing that the only way Boks can win is by being cautious and scoring off mistakes is cheating ourselves. We can be more creative and still remain disciplined in defence. That is my dream.

  • Comment 83, posted at 25.08.08 16:02:05 by blackshark Reply

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  • KSA-82… Its quite possible that he accepted the blame for certain decisions and also urged the players to get with the programme…but somehow this ended up on separate articles…

  • Comment 84, posted at 25.08.08 16:08:21 by blackshark Reply

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  • @blackshark (Comment 84) :

    yes it is, but it is more likely that some people will rather post the more damaging angle rather than the owning up and taking some responsibilty angle.

  • Comment 85, posted at 25.08.08 16:10:39 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @blackshark (Comment 83) :

    Ah – thanks – you know I sometimes need some explaining than the average person.. 😉

  • Comment 86, posted at 25.08.08 16:11:53 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 85) :

    It’s calles “selling papers”… 😉

  • Comment 87, posted at 25.08.08 16:12:29 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • KSA 85- Exactly…

  • Comment 88, posted at 25.08.08 16:14:41 by blackshark Reply

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  • KSA….one should always understand that what we call news is often a subjective opinion.

  • Comment 89, posted at 25.08.08 16:19:29 by Sauce Reply
    Worcestershire Sauce
  • Subjective opinion or propaganda.

  • Comment 90, posted at 25.08.08 16:28:28 by blackshark Reply

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  • Your choice depending on which side of the snor you are on….

  • Comment 91, posted at 25.08.08 16:31:06 by Sauce Reply
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  • @Sauce (Comment 91) :


    all depends.

  • Comment 92, posted at 25.08.08 16:33:57 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 92) :

    But should it, that is the question? 😆

  • Comment 93, posted at 25.08.08 17:02:52 by Ollie Reply

  • Ollie- in an ideal world and true sense of journalism it shouldnt but we are dealing with humans here so personal emotions and opinions find their way into the mix. It should be noted though that some people tend to have more opinions than facts…

  • Comment 94, posted at 25.08.08 18:06:08 by blackshark Reply

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  • @blackshark (Comment 94) : Guilty 🙂

  • Comment 95, posted at 25.08.08 18:28:38 by robdylan Reply
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  • How do you do the reply to comment thing?


    Yes the players individually are not playing to their potential, my point is really it is the coach’s job to get that out of them.

    He needs to use all resources skills, negotiation, experience, threats etc that it takes to ensure that guys like matfield deliver at the level they can.

    A big part of a coach’s job is getting the best from players.

  • Comment 96, posted at 25.08.08 18:36:26 by beez Reply

  • @beez (Comment 96) : aah worked out the reply to comment thing

  • Comment 97, posted at 25.08.08 18:36:57 by beez Reply

  • @blackshark (Comment 83) :
    I think that as a country we have the players to play attractive running rugby and deliver results, from the outside looking in though Snor does not seem to be running a good change management process.

    I do believe that the coach is not giving his new vision enough time.

  • Comment 98, posted at 25.08.08 18:41:18 by beez Reply

  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 76) : I agree with your line of thinking Ice.

    If PdV came in and said by next years Tri-Nations we are playing expansive rugby and gave the public an insight into his planning to get there over a year we would be much happier.

    Start off by keeping the good things and slowly building a new culture.

    As a semi rugby literate member of the public I would really have appreciated it if Snor had come into the job and given the fans a presentation of a vision and then a plan to achieve it.

    At the moment he just looks confused and out of his depth, but no one knows what his real plans, what has or has not happened etc.

    How great would be if a coach had to give a public presentation of his years plans to the fans. Not to the level that other coaches would get an advantage but just an overall plan.

    I would be more willing to buy into what and how he wants to achieve rather than just being a standard news reading coach hater.

  • Comment 99, posted at 25.08.08 18:47:58 by beez Reply

  • talking to myself.

  • Comment 100, posted at 25.08.08 18:48:25 by beez Reply

  • @molly (Comment 80) : Come on mol…After we handed their asses to them, they were good enough to beat Australia AND France on the way to the final. 🙄

  • Comment 101, posted at 25.08.08 18:51:51 by klempie Reply

  • Good evening all – Klempie are you still there?

  • Comment 102, posted at 25.08.08 18:53:23 by Nessa Reply

  • @Nessa (Comment 102) : I am. :mrgreen: D’you get my mail?

  • Comment 103, posted at 25.08.08 18:56:03 by klempie Reply

  • ‘Changing coach now will accomplish nothing’ – That’s what I kept saying throughout Jake White’s tenure with the Boks. And hopefully things work out the same for Mr de Villiers.

  • Comment 104, posted at 25.08.08 19:01:54 by McLovin Reply

  • @McLovin (Comment 104) : Plus a change

  • Comment 105, posted at 25.08.08 19:30:08 by robdylan Reply
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  • Great opinions on this thread.

    I really enjoyed the reasoned responses here as opposed to the rabid arguing on some other spots. Plenty of food of thought for me.

  • Comment 106, posted at 25.08.08 20:49:20 by Big Fish Reply
    Big Fish
  • @klempie (Comment 103) :

    Sorry – am still at work and haven’t had a chance to chat like I thought I would. 😥

    Yes thanks, I did get your mail. Will definitely be there.

  • Comment 107, posted at 25.08.08 22:41:05 by Nessa Reply

  • Sydney – Former Springboks assistant and Wallabies boss Eddie Jones, has turned up the heat on beleaguered South African rugby coach Peter de Villiers, describing his much maligned new gameplan as “nonsense”.

    Jones was a member of former Boks coach Jake White’s staff when South Africa won the World Cup in France last year.

    His comments come amidst rumours of disunity and confusion among the South African players, and after de Villiers, the first black man to coach the Springboks, was booed loudly by Durban fans after Sunday’s (NZT) 27-15 loss to Australia, reports the NZ Herald website.

    “The Springboks will get worse if they continue in this way,” Jones told English newspaper the Independent.

    “Mate, no one in world rugby is playing the way their coach is talking about, not successfully anyway.

    “Everyone has discipline, policies and a procedure in their game. The way he is talking is nonsense. You can’t just play an expansive, wide game.


    “This is still a very good squad of players. Most are even at their peak or approaching it. So there is plenty of talent but what they need is the organisation and discipline.

    “The hard thing for Peter is that he has never coached professionally and this is one of the most difficult teams to coach.

    “They’re attacking off everything. And they’re going lateral, not through defences. You have to go through sides like Australia and New Zealand first.

    “But he has to change his philosophy because it doesn’t fit these players. It’s not credible.

    “Peter’s big test now is to learn. If he learns, he can turn it around. But if he continues to be stubborn, he won’t last long because his tactics won’t work.”

    De Villiers has accepted responsibility for a Springboks’ slide since winning last year’s Rugby World Cup which has resulted in them winning just one of their five Tri-Nations games.

    “If a company is doing badly, then you blame the managing director, so it is right and fair that the coach be held responsible,” De Villiers told reporters in Johannesburg.


    “I know people are angry and rightfully so.” But he also claimed the Boks were the better side at ABSA Stadium.

    “We should have won, the opportunities were there but we just let them slip,” he said.

    “I’m not going to panic because, having watched the video again, I saw how great we played.

    “Decision-making in split seconds is new to the guys and it has been a bit worrying. The onus is now on the player, but they want to be in a confined group where they are comfortable.”

    South Africa clash with Australia at Ellis Park in the second Test on Saturday and a loss there to the Wallabies for the first time in 45 years, would have de Villiers under enormous pressure.

    Winger JP Pietersen was ruled out on Monday with a hamstring strain and Odwa Ndungane was called into the squad as his replacement.

    Hooker Bismarck du Plessis (knee) and captain Victor Matfield (groin) are in some doubt but flying winger Bryan Habana is an outside chance of recovering from a hamstring injury.

  • Comment 108, posted at 26.08.08 08:11:02 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 108) :

    Jinne Dommie…this article is on the site already…. 🙄 🙄 :mrgreen:

  • Comment 109, posted at 26.08.08 08:17:32 by I'ce (Rebel With a Cause) Reply
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  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 109) : 😆

  • Comment 110, posted at 26.08.08 08:24:23 by blackshark Reply

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  • One of the better pieces I have read this year.

  • Comment 111, posted at 26.08.08 14:20:01 by MorneN Reply
  • @I’ce (Rebel With a Cause) (Comment 109) :

    Always wanted to ask, is that you in the photo?

  • Comment 112, posted at 26.08.08 14:29:22 by MorneN Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 111) : thanks pal 😉

  • Comment 113, posted at 26.08.08 14:35:40 by robdylan Reply
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  • @klempie (Comment 101) : Yes we whipped them, just like we whipped their “C” team before the tourney.

    And as you’ve already said Aus lost because of their arrogance. And if I remember correctly… Jonny Wilkinson was playing.

  • Comment 114, posted at 26.08.08 15:10:17 by molly Reply
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