Defending Div. AGAIN

Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :Original Content, Springboks on 27 Oct 2008 at 18:34
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I’m spotting a trend amongst SA rugby blogs, guys. It’s called “see a bandwagon and hop right on”.

Not me, though. You know I like to go against the grain and for that reason, I am determined (once again) to not needlessly pan Peter de Villiers and his team selections until they have clearly lost us games that we should have won. I guess I just like the underdog – unless, of course, the underdog happens to be playing against the Sharks.

So, I reckon we can pick an INCREDIBLY competent test 22 out of the bunch that de Villiers has chosen and, in fact, the only really tricky part is finding a job for Frans Steyn to do that isn’t too demeaning for a man of his talents. John Smit may not have played prop for a good few years (although rumour has it he played a fair bit of prop in the French leagues – that doesn’t count, cos the stinky Frogs know nothing about skrums, ek sê!) but he was one of the finest age-group props ever to emerge from our school system and is one of the brightest and hardest working guys that I know. If anyone can make a success of this transition – and will be prepared to put in the hard work necessary – it’s John.

I find it amazing how many people just plain haven’t done their homework about his exploits at junior levels either. There seems to be a pretty strong perception out there that John was a loosehead at school. He wasn’t. He always wore three. I know, because I was there. He played for the Boys’ High first team for three years, Craven Week and SA Schools, as well as for both the Sharks and Boks juniors as a tighthead. It was only when he made his senior debut in 1997 that he was converted into a hooker.

Right, so that’s one problem put to bed. A front row of Beast, Bissie and John Smit… what a mouth-watering prospect for Bok fans (and not just those of us who tend to view things in black and white). Add the old firm of Bakkies and Victor (who’s going to play much better without the ill-fitting captain’s armband) and you have a tight five of note. Our loosies are superb, as always, provided the right number 8 gets a start.

So, Ruan Pienaar then. I mean, come on. Guys, we don’t have any other flyhalves. Who exactly was Pietie meant to pick? Peter Grant? He’s been there and thereabouts for three seasons now and has just never made the step up. Morne Steyn? Asseblief, ou pêl, trek uit jou blou trui en dink bietjie! He falls to pieces whenever there’s any pressure. Gaffie du Toit number 2, if you ask me. What about Willem de Waal and Chris Rossouw? Hell, maybe Braam van Straaten is still fit? Or maybe we could find a pair of crutches for old Petoors and drag him along instead.

No, I don’t buy it. We have all been saying for years now that it’s probably Ruan Pienaar’s destiny to play Bok flyhalf. Peter has simply followed the shortest route to get us to that point – thrusting the jersey onto him and telling him to just stop whining and go do it. I think the results will be phenomenal. Far better than trekking yet another useless carthorse up North with us, only to see him crumble.

So, the only real question is this: How do you somehow manage to get BOTH Jean de Villiers and Frans Steyn to play inside centre at the same time?


  • BTW, if anybody brings up the fact that I’ve done a complete 180 on the Smit-at-tighthead thing, that is my democratic right, dammit! 🙂

  • Comment 1, posted at 27.10.08 18:48:27 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
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  • Come on Peter Grant has not been given a chance. 3 seasons and about 5 minutes game time. And most of the time he’s made an impact on the game.

    At least with PG we all know what to expect, not the same with Mr Rose.

  • Comment 2, posted at 27.10.08 19:39:16 by molly Reply
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  • oh, and Frans on the wing while JdV is playing

  • Comment 3, posted at 27.10.08 19:40:22 by molly Reply
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  • @molly (Comment 2) : I’m intentionally not discussing Rose. I honestly believe Pinie is a far better flyhalf than Grant will ever be.

    JP and Jongi are both far better wingers that Steyn is. I reckon if a place must be found, it’s at fullback

  • Comment 4, posted at 27.10.08 19:53:48 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
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  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 4) : Pienaar does have the making, but how much more does he have to do at scrumhalf to prove his pedigree there? He’s been brilliant since he asked to play there.

  • Comment 5, posted at 27.10.08 19:58:01 by molly Reply
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  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 4) : Oh and with Steyn, I don’t know, I doubt he’ll be pushing Jantjies out in a hurry. May have to consign him to the impact bench.

  • Comment 6, posted at 27.10.08 19:59:56 by molly Reply
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  • @molly (Comment 2) :
    Thats the thing with Grant – you always know what to expect. I would like a bit more from a flyhalf.

    And how anyone can think of dropping JPP is beyond me – he has been far and away the best wing in the CC. As a matter of fact, Nokwe was better than Habana too.

    I would say Steyn at 15.

  • Comment 7, posted at 27.10.08 20:27:40 by Big Fish Reply
    Big Fish
  • @molly (Comment 5) :

    My thoughts exactly. The guy is awesome at 9. and now he get’s unsettled AGAIN.

    Please don’t let PdV turn this guy into Brent Russel?

  • Comment 8, posted at 27.10.08 20:37:13 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • I’ve never really got the whole Peter Grant hype. He’s good, make no mistake, but not really that good imo.

  • Comment 9, posted at 27.10.08 20:49:17 by McLovin Reply

  • @McLovin (Comment 9) : hey,where does your allegiance lay?

  • Comment 10, posted at 27.10.08 20:57:58 by PJLD Reply
  • @PJLD (Comment 10) : With me 🙂

  • Comment 11, posted at 27.10.08 21:20:09 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
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  • @Big Fish (Comment 7) :

    Well that’s exactly the point. Well sort of.

    The thing about Grant is that he is so remarkably unflashy. He’ll never spectacularly win you games but he’ll also never spectacularly lose them either.
    And with a side full of talented gamebreakers, the likes of Pienaar, de Villiers and Steyn amongst them, you do just sometimes need a stable hand.

    I’ve said this before that the Boks have always played their best rugby with hard, reliable men at flyhalf that just do the business.
    The Boks have always had gamebreaker at 9 and 12 and play best when their is just a regular, reliable player inbetween to shore them up.

  • Comment 12, posted at 27.10.08 22:04:08 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @PJLD (Comment 10) : maybe I haven’t seen enough of him yet. 😉

  • Comment 13, posted at 27.10.08 22:25:27 by McLovin Reply

  • “I’m spotting a trend amongst SA rugby blogs, guys. It’s called “see a bandwagon and hop right on”.

    Not me, though. You know I like to go against the grain and for that reason, I am determined (once again) to not needlessly pan Peter de Villiers and his team selections until they have clearly lost us games that we should have won.”

    Interestingly those that did slam his iffy political selections, lack of game-plan last year… were unfortunately vindicated…

    The Boks lost a series against NZ 2-1… lost a series against Australia (with 2 home games) 2-1… and came stone cold last in the 3N…

    More punters should be questioning and not less… but that’s just IMHO!

  • Comment 14, posted at 28.10.08 00:44:06 by bryce_in_oz Reply

  • So Smit is a TH. Fine. He can cover hooker also. Then Chillyboy is just a passenger. Rather take another promising young prop.

    Same at 10. Pienaar will probably be fine, but it is an experiment. Then you take some one more solid as backup (not the micro-lion).
    If Pienaar was a 9, also there would be no place for Januarie.

    Four wings. Plus about another 4 guys that can easily cover wing and only 1 and a quarter flyhalfs?

  • Comment 15, posted at 28.10.08 03:48:02 by fyndraai Reply
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  • Courtesy of Walter’s Transvaal site edited by moi…

    Stats from the lowly CC competition… and some think this guys could thrive at test level 😯 unless he’s never going to get played…

    Lions/Cheetahs 22 August 2008

    1st Half:
    1:48 – Earl Rose misses tackle on Meyer Bosman.
    2:16 – Earl Rose misses tackle on Wian du Preez.
    20:02 – Earl Rose misses tackle on Vermeulen.
    21:21 – Earl Rose doesn’t find touch with a kick from his 22.
    21:27 – Earl Rose misses tackle on 11.
    29:15 – Earl Rose misses tackle on Floors.
    31:30 – Earl Rose misses tackle on Scholtz.
    31:55 – Earl Rose misses tackle on De Villiers.
    35:07 – Earl Rose doesn’t find touch with kick from his 22.

    2nd Half:
    56:50 – Earl Rose misses tackle on Juries.
    58:41 – Earl Rose’s restart fails to go 10 meters.
    68:07 – Earl Rose passes inside but finds a Cheetah player.
    70:23 – Earl Rose misses tackle on 11.

    Lions/Bulls 8 August 2008

    Player mistakes

    1st Half:
    2:15 – Earl Rose misses an up and under and knocks it forward.
    19:02 – Earl Rose kicks from his 22 and it’s not out.
    24:18 – Earl Rose concedes penalty (advantage) for offside play at ruck.
    25:06 – Earl Rose fails to find touch from his 22.

    2nd Half
    44:44 – Earl Rose misses tackle on number 12.
    47:20 – Earl Rose misses a difficult conversion to the right of the poles.
    51:41 – Earl Rose misses difficult conversion to the left of the poles.
    54:14 – Earl Rose fails to find touch from inside his 22.
    54:21 – Earl Rose fails to catch up and under.
    58:06 – Earl Rose misses tackle on replacement scrumhalf.
    63:04 – Earl Rose misses drop goal attempt to the right of the poles.
    63:49 – Earl Rose misses tackle on number 8.
    75:30 – Earl Rose misses a drop goal attempt to the right of the poles.

  • Comment 16, posted at 28.10.08 04:30:43 by bryce_in_oz Reply

  • @bryce_in_oz (Comment 16) :

    Now look at other small in stature 10’s amongst the top tier test teams… Michalak, Carter, Giteau, Wilko… nope… you cannot coach ‘balls’…

  • Comment 17, posted at 28.10.08 06:06:10 by bryce_in_oz Reply

  • @bryce_in_oz (Comment 17) :

    Spot On. Either you have it or you don’t.

    They ain’t going to grow bigger next year.

  • Comment 18, posted at 28.10.08 06:30:43 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @bryce_in_oz (Comment 16) :

    Those are some shocking stats. 😯

  • Comment 19, posted at 28.10.08 06:32:58 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 12) :

    yip and my suggestion to that would be.
    9 Pienaar
    12 JdV / Steyn

    with Grant at 10.

  • Comment 20, posted at 28.10.08 06:43:18 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 19) :

    I’d never realised how much work Walter puts into his site… every Lions game has similar stats… kudos!

  • Comment 21, posted at 28.10.08 06:50:57 by bryce_in_oz Reply

  • @bryce_in_oz (Comment 21) :

    Yeah. His site is excellent. He does put in a LOT of work.

  • Comment 22, posted at 28.10.08 06:54:53 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @bryce_in_oz (Comment 16) :

    Morning all…

    That doesn’t look good at all…thank goodness I’m not PdV.

    I’ve decided not to defend or attack his strange selections (how many , 2 ??? ) until I’ve seen how it all works out on the field (at least one match).

    Good luck Bokke!!!

  • Comment 23, posted at 28.10.08 07:32:58 by just blackshark Reply

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  • Rob,

    You know my feeling RE Pienaar and 10.

    My issue however is there is no specialist back-up’s or players in two crucial positions, tighthead and 10 – two positions that have a massive impact in NH conditions.

    Sure pick Ruan as 10, but then pick Grant to ensure you actually have a guy that has played 10 most of his life and performed quite well even if not spectacular at levels like the Super 14.

    Same goes for John.

    He might have played at school but for the last 10 years he has played hooker.

    Do you call him a specialist? In a position which is vital for scrums and where scrums are very technical in the NH?

    The balance of the squad is what I do not like.

    I dont mind John at TH, and even Earl at 10 – but then get some insurance by picking specialist rather than 4 wings!!!

    Or 5 loosies!

    Overkill in positions that does not really matter, and very undercooked in absolutely vital positions in 10 and 3.

  • Comment 24, posted at 28.10.08 08:40:02 by MorneN Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 24) :

    Morne I agree with most you say except for John.

    When John was with Clermont there were quite a few articles about him not playing hooker and playing TH instead.

    In the end he hardly spent any time at hooker for Clermont but almost all of his time at TH. He certainly does have the required experience to play TH at test level and i am sure he will cement himself as the #1 choice there in no time.

  • Comment 25, posted at 28.10.08 09:01:22 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 25) :

    From what I heard it was only two games but I do not know for a fact.

    Look I hope you are right, but I still reckon John should have been selected as hooker, with a specialist tighthead in the team too.

  • Comment 26, posted at 28.10.08 09:08:57 by MorneN Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 26) :

    My concern with John playing Th is that it will leave Bismarck to play hooker. And I am sorry to say this about a Shark but Bismarck is getting a little to much of a liability of late. He needs to calm himself down or he will soon be another CJ vd Linde where some people are actually glad when he get’s suspended.

  • Comment 27, posted at 28.10.08 09:16:29 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 25) : not too mention an undercooked back-up hooker…

    22man 85min rugby…

  • Comment 28, posted at 28.10.08 09:21:55 by bryce_in_oz Reply

  • @MorneN (Comment 24) :
    Then again, this is the opinion of a man who thought that FDP would outplay Ruan, Morne Steyn would control the game while Freddie crumbled under pressure, and Timotei Olivier would outgun Frans Steyn. 😈

  • Comment 29, posted at 28.10.08 09:24:05 by Big Fish Reply
    Big Fish
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 27) :

    I thought I was the only person in SA that thought Bismarck was overrated.

    @Big Fish (Comment 29) :

    Dis alles Kaplan se skuld! Hy het die Bulle uit die game geblaas!

  • Comment 30, posted at 28.10.08 09:39:07 by MorneN Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 26) : We do have a TH in Mujati … ( hope Mmhhh is not around) 😆

  • Comment 31, posted at 28.10.08 09:51:16 by just blackshark Reply

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  • @MorneN (Comment 30) : Not overrated…but he still has a lot of room for improvement.

    Head got a bit hot the other day…but I’ll let that slide…hopefully he doesn’t do that too often. 👿

  • Comment 32, posted at 28.10.08 09:54:20 by just blackshark Reply

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  • @MorneN (Comment 30) :

    I tend to agree with @just blackshark (Comment 32) :

    Not overrated on his play but rapidly turning into a liability on attitude.

  • Comment 33, posted at 28.10.08 09:56:25 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @just blackshark (Comment 32) :

    it is happening more and more often though. And that is a concern for me.

  • Comment 34, posted at 28.10.08 09:57:21 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @just blackshark (Comment 32) :

    IN some quarters it is almost as bad as the WP guys were about that overrated Brits at hooker.

  • Comment 35, posted at 28.10.08 09:57:45 by MorneN Reply
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 33) : @MorneN (Comment 35) :

    He did a lot of good things in that FINAL…can’t take that away from him – but at some point it looked like he was intent on spoiling it with bad attitude.

    He’s still the 2nd best hooker we have 9 by a long distance too) and I have no doubt that he has the potential to be the best (even in the world) one day.

    Maybe they should’ve started him on the bench just to keep him in check. 🙂

  • Comment 36, posted at 28.10.08 10:27:28 by just blackshark Reply

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  • @just blackshark (Comment 36) :
    Start him off the bench, and remind him that its a team sport.

    I am almost with Morne on this one – I feel that Bismark’s absolute determination to take the ball into contact on his own, even when there are overlaps, are not neccessarily good things, while his throwing and attitude are concerns too.

    I think he has massive potential, but selfish play and petulance are big issues right now.

  • Comment 37, posted at 28.10.08 10:40:21 by Big Fish Reply
    Big Fish
  • @MorneN (Comment 30) :

    No he is the second best hooker in RSA after John, with Strauss, Wepenaar, Strauss (cuz), Kuun, Reynecke, Ralepele next in that order…

    And the third best hooker in UK (Liebenberg)….

  • Comment 38, posted at 28.10.08 10:41:37 by bryce_in_oz Reply

  • Oh Rob you force me to bring out my dusty ol’ drum!!

    Will someone please point one game John Smit has played at tight head at senior level where the team he was scrumming for did not go backwards? For the Boks and Sharks (did not watch him ever play prop in France)whenever he played prop, his team was on the back foot in the scrums.

  • Comment 39, posted at 28.10.08 10:44:27 by Dive Pass Reply

    Dive Pass
  • @just blackshark (Comment 36) : @bryce_in_oz (Comment 38) :

    Dont get me wrong, I also reckon he is the second best we got.

    but how he is elevated in certain quarters is overrating him in my view.

    Cant believe some think he is better than Smit.

  • Comment 40, posted at 28.10.08 10:48:53 by MorneN Reply
  • @bryce_in_oz (Comment 38) :

    How can you have Kuun 4th!

    He is 7th at best.

  • Comment 41, posted at 28.10.08 10:49:49 by MorneN Reply
  • @Dive Pass (Comment 39) :

    Bang the drum brother.

  • Comment 42, posted at 28.10.08 10:50:43 by MorneN Reply
  • As far as De Villiers goes, going to the Northern Hemisphere to play rugby in November involves putting 3 players on your team sheet first, a good scrumming tight head, secondly another good scrumming tight head and thirdly a good composed player who is also a tactical kicking fly-half.

    I have no problems with the Pienaar experiment at 10, as long as the player is sold on it and I am not certain that is the case. Rose at 10 is joke when his own provincial coached tried to hide him at 15 in the CC semi-final. Grant should have been the back up man if we looked at selection for rugby skills sake. Comparisons have been made between Rose and Frans Steyn, but I believe Steyn is more skilled and better on defence and moreover I would never advocate his playing at 10.

  • Comment 43, posted at 28.10.08 10:52:47 by Dive Pass Reply

    Dive Pass
  • My big concern is not starting with John at TH and Pienaar at FH.
    My concenr is rather who you then bring on with 20 to go to close down the game when you’re leading with 3 points.

    Earl Rose? Are you farking kidding me? Ahead with three points, it’s pissing down with rain, you’re getting mullered in the scrums and the pressure is on. You’re on your tryline and Pienaar, or Lord forbod Smit, gets injured. 10 minutes to go and under pressure and on steps Earl Rose and Brian Mujati.

    Good grief this could go badly. I mean really – would you rather have CJ and Grant coming on for the last tense minutes or Brian and Earl?

  • Comment 44, posted at 28.10.08 12:06:50 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 44) : CJ is a liability and one of the most overrated props we’ve ever had.

    He was a walking yellow card this season… Jannie should have been touring.

    As for Mujati, he is all we’ve got so lets back the guy. He is not that bad… 🙄

  • Comment 45, posted at 28.10.08 12:20:10 by wpw Reply
  • well, he’s all we’ve got on tour… 😉

  • Comment 46, posted at 28.10.08 12:20:31 by wpw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 44) :

    Ask the Bulls what it means to have no bench worth mentioning…. 😉

    In todays game the bench is vital and you can’t give a guy a run off the bench just for the sake of it.

  • Comment 47, posted at 28.10.08 12:22:50 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 47) : can you believe the the Bulls actually had 3 guys left on the bench on Saturday? Does Ludeke just not understand?

  • Comment 48, posted at 28.10.08 12:25:35 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 44) : You know full well Earl is gonna try and run that bugger from behind the poles.

    At that moment i want to cameras to pan to Juan Smith because that dude can get angry.

  • Comment 49, posted at 28.10.08 12:30:40 by PJLD Reply
  • @PJLD (Comment 49) : If you don’t believe me ask Joe VN.

  • Comment 50, posted at 28.10.08 12:31:16 by PJLD Reply
  • @wpw (Comment 45) :

    Says the Eddie fan club president!

  • Comment 51, posted at 28.10.08 12:32:36 by MorneN Reply
  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 48) :

    IMO he knew his players were better than his benchers even if the benchers had fresh legs.

    I predicted we would club them when our benches came on. I am sure he was aware that it would happen and stuck with his players.

  • Comment 52, posted at 28.10.08 12:37:56 by KSA Shark © Reply

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  • @PJLD (Comment 49) :

    No well exactly.

    I’m all for playing your agmebreakers but you really just also need a reliable, unflashy player available to close things down.

    Wales did that brilliantly in last year’s 6N where they had Hook on who is a Pienaar type flashy player but then would bring on Stpehen Jones to kick them to victory when the game was almost in the bag.

    We’ll be replacing one flashy player with an even more flashy player. Great when you’re playing Japan and you’re 50 points in the lead – not so good when you’re playing England at Twickenham in the rain.

    I dont have so much issue with Mujati as a player – I just wish there was another backup there too.
    I understand the cupboard is bare but to take just two TH props on a tour? With one not even really a TH? That’s lunacy. Take Mujati along, by all means. But take another guy too. What happens when Smit runs into his next Thorn? Then we suddenly down to one pretty damned average TH in the British winter?

    I have no doubt we’ll field a very, very competitive side, possibly the best we could field under the circumstances. But that’s my concern – my concern is that lack of depth in the squad in key positions if something goes wrong.
    Make no mistake, if things go right there’ll be no problems whatsoever.
    But if they don’t… a few injuries and we’re in serious trouble.

  • Comment 53, posted at 28.10.08 12:41:01 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 52) : that’s what I felt at half time. Reckoned if we could just hold the brutes for the first 15 minutes of the second half, our bench would do the rest

  • Comment 54, posted at 28.10.08 12:41:13 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
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  • @wpw (Comment 45) :

    56 Springbok caps as the TH of choice would beg to differ young man.

  • Comment 55, posted at 28.10.08 12:44:03 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 53) : but there are players on standby… all the guys that you guys WANT to be there are on standby anyway.

  • Comment 56, posted at 28.10.08 12:44:25 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
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  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 55) : erm… Jannie and BJ kick his ass as a tighthead, though…

  • Comment 57, posted at 28.10.08 12:45:43 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
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  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 56) :

    Standby is not exactly part of the tour Robbo.
    Feck man, there’s 45 million saffas at home “on standby”.

    Standby is a load of shit Rob. Using that excuse PdV could just take along 22 players and a ballboy.

  • Comment 58, posted at 28.10.08 12:45:50 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 55) : CJ never really struck me as a TH.More of a LH but then again no way he was pushing Os out the team

  • Comment 59, posted at 28.10.08 12:46:14 by PJLD Reply
  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 57) :

    That’s your opinion Sir. He is still the one with more than 50 caps in the most specialised position on the rugby pitch playing for the world champions.

  • Comment 60, posted at 28.10.08 12:46:50 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 56) :

    Except Stefan Terblanche 🙁

  • Comment 61, posted at 28.10.08 12:47:51 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • I’m a bit miffed at Stefan’s exclusion.

    Think he is just the right player to take along with all the other prima donnas.

    I even had an article penned about how he could be the new Percy Montgomery and then Pietie didnt bloody pick him.

  • Comment 62, posted at 28.10.08 12:49:42 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 62) : put it up anyway

  • Comment 63, posted at 28.10.08 12:51:06 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
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  • CJ of old was good.

    In his last matches though he somehow seemed to have become nasty.

    The Afrikaans word to describe him is “geniepsig”, closest I can think of in english is a vindictive little bully.

    Not sure what caused it, but when we find out we should speak to Bismarck about it as well.

  • Comment 64, posted at 28.10.08 12:53:18 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 63) :

    It never got finished Robbo – maybe I’ll make a few changes and put the finishing touches on tonight.

  • Comment 65, posted at 28.10.08 12:53:21 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 60) :

    Have to agree with Vin.

    Stand-by is not really in the squad – my concern is on match day, when players gets subbed or injured.

    Stand-by players mean very little then.

    And why 4 WINGERS??? When you could have picked a specialist 10 and 3 rather in addition to Earl and John at 10 and 3???

    Almost all our backline players can cover wing in case of emergency.

  • Comment 66, posted at 28.10.08 12:54:59 by MorneN Reply
  • Nee bliksem manne why does everyone want to include Stefan?

    The dude was the best 15 in the CC but since when is that a yardstick to give (or bring back) guys Bok caps?

    If you want a 30+ player in the squad to bring stability rather ask Monty to make himself available for one more tour. At least you have a kicker then too.

  • Comment 67, posted at 28.10.08 13:00:44 by MorneN Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 67) :

    I thought he was absolutely superb in the final stages of teh CC Morne.

    Compare his exclusion, for example, to the inclusion of Rose or even Juan Smith.
    With so many young players in the backs lacking experience I think it would’ve been a good move to take a journeyman along who has been there and doen that.

  • Comment 68, posted at 28.10.08 13:03:45 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 67) :

    The dude was the best 15 in the CC but since when is that a yardstick to give (or bring back) guys Bok caps

    Since last Saturday when Earl Rose earned himself selection. 😉

    Seriously though, the CC should be a yardstick for selection to the Bok team, but ONLY when it is a full strength CC in which they guy proves his worth. And for Stefan that was the case.

  • Comment 69, posted at 28.10.08 13:04:46 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • If I’m not mistaken, I think John Smit played both hooker and tight head for Cleremont, mostly from the bench.

    As the Sharks are on t5he look out for a flyhalf for the Super 14 maybe we can do a snap poll to see who their supporters would choose if given the choice of Earl Rose or Peter Grant. No ifs and buts, just a straight choice.

    I’ll take Peter Grant.

  • Comment 70, posted at 28.10.08 13:06:45 by Salmonoid Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Salmonoid the Subtle
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 68) :

    I am not saying he is bad or was – he was the best 15 in the competition. I just see no point in including him.

    In JP and Habs you have World Cup experience on the wing, as with most of the backline.

    I can see how guys want a steady Eddie at the back but like I said then rather convince Monty to go on one last tour as cover or even advisor – at least you will have a goal kicker – something we do not have now – or one with an 80% odd record.

    I am not even going down the route of the inclusion of Rose. Absolute bullocks that in my view.

  • Comment 71, posted at 28.10.08 13:08:00 by MorneN Reply
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 69) :

    I simply cannot see what value he will add.

  • Comment 72, posted at 28.10.08 13:09:12 by MorneN Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 71) :

    I’d also rather have Monty but the dude in unavailable.

    And, on current form, Stefan is anyway playing better rugby.

    It pains me to say this, it really does, as I’ve never been a fan of his at any point in his career.

  • Comment 73, posted at 28.10.08 13:09:44 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @Salmonoid (Comment 70) :

    Peter Grant for me.

  • Comment 74, posted at 28.10.08 13:09:54 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @MorneN (Comment 72) :

    There is one specialist fullback on tour and he is relatively inexperienced at International level. Besides that point Stefan has also had a much better season than Jantjes has had.

    I am afraid I can’t buy into the take percy if you want experience option though. Percy went off the boil and has had hardly any game time in WEEKS possibly months.

  • Comment 75, posted at 28.10.08 13:12:42 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 73) :

    It really goes on what value he can add Vin.

    Jantjes is going to play all three tests barr injury.

    In case of emergency Odwa can cover 15 which he has played with distinction for the Sharks.

    To me the inclusion of Stefan simply adds no value.

    But yeah neither does the inclusion of Rose or the fact that our top Boks are not rested where we have more than able back-ups.

    Juan, Schalk and Victor should have stayed and gone onto a conditioning program.

    We have many young bright talents that could have gone in their place.

  • Comment 76, posted at 28.10.08 13:13:33 by MorneN Reply
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 75) :

    There is no specialist 10 or 3 KSA!!!!

    Why should 15 be different – at least they have 1 specialist.

    Seriously though.

    You cannot compare Stefan with Jantjes – he had limited game time in the CC and more than satisfying Bok stint this year.

    You cannot compare CC with Bok rugby, and on S14 form I will go with Jantjes over Stefan sorry.

    Then rather take a young Kirchner or Mangweni on tour to blood.

  • Comment 77, posted at 28.10.08 13:15:39 by MorneN Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 67) : PdV said he’d choose players on current form.

    Would you rather have a player who was good in the WC last year over a player who’s playing decent rugby NOW?

    I’m really not crushed that Stefan didn’t get picked…but that’s only because of his age. If guys like Butch don’t wanna go on after the Lions tour then there’s no point in persisting with them. Just let them rest.

    I still say if Stefan was a few years younger he’d be in the squad cos the quality he’s been displaying recently is certainly not limited to the CC.

  • Comment 78, posted at 28.10.08 13:20:46 by just blackshark Reply

    blackshark - I'm back!
  • @just blackshark (Comment 78) :

    Yes age does play a role which is why I said – I cannot see any value he would add.

    If we are going to debate players that should be selected on current form then Stefan is on a list of 20 other players we can also highlight that should have been picked.

    Jantjes is also hardly a greenhorn at 15 or Bok level, he made his debut in 2002 didn’t he – always playing in the back three?

  • Comment 79, posted at 28.10.08 13:24:25 by MorneN Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 77) :

    There is no specialist 10 or 3 KSA!!!!

    I am unhappy with there being no 10 as well but since when is sound reasoning part of PDV’s selection policy?

    If this side was being selected after the S14 I would also go with Jantjes over Terblanche in an instant.

    But it isn’t, and the CC portion we are looking at is the portion where the Big 5 WERE S14 teams in all but name. During those last few weeks the Big 5 played against other Big 5 and teams and terblanche showed he was the choice 15 in the CC. Jantjes on the other hand didn’t really do that even though WP had quite a few minnows in their run in to the semis.

    I think you and I have ONCE AGAIN got to a point where neither of our opinions is going to change the other guy’s mind. 🙂

  • Comment 80, posted at 28.10.08 13:25:24 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @MorneN (Comment 79) :

    2001 debut. And in those 8 years he has earned 21 caps and scored 22 points. That’s less than three caps a year in an age where there are at least 10 tests a year, hardly a sterling performance.

  • Comment 81, posted at 28.10.08 13:28:51 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 80) :

    Exactly, WP played mostly against minnows whereas the Sharks had high profile games in which players is scrutinized more and WP have not played in 3 weeks since the match against the Lions at Newlands.

    The freshest memory is often the only one remembered. Which is why some guys are calling for Steyn to be selected ahead of Jean de Villiers?!?! Insane.

    Jantjes did nothing wrong since returning to the CC, and Terblanche was good without being spectacular.

    Again since when do we select guys based on 4 games, and that being CC games?

    Also, mentioning this again – what value will Terblanche add?

    Don’t forget Jantjes’ career was not only under various coaches who pick who they want, but also suffered quite a number of injuries.

    Point is, he is not a youngster.

    So the lack of experience thing does not really sit with me.

  • Comment 82, posted at 28.10.08 13:46:54 by MorneN Reply
  • Qoute it yesterday, think Francois Steyn should get a change in 10. Dont know about Earl but would love to see Brussouw, Kankowski & Schalk loosies. Dont know about John Smit on TH. A lot of risks but hell we thought the same thing about AD & Januarie and look where they are at the moment.

  • Comment 83, posted at 28.10.08 13:50:33 by PaarlBok Reply

  • @MorneN (Comment 82) : I agree. There’s nothing wrong with Jantjes at fullback. I wouldn’t pick Stef ahead of him for the Boks, and I’m a big fan of Stef’s these days

  • Comment 84, posted at 28.10.08 13:50:59 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 84) :

    You would or your would not (pick him ahead of Jantjes)

  • Comment 85, posted at 28.10.08 13:53:24 by MorneN Reply
  • @MorneN (Comment 82) :
    @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 84) :

    Yeah…let’s save Oom Stef’s good form and whatever is left in his legs for THE SHARKS….we’ll need it….

  • Comment 86, posted at 28.10.08 13:54:55 by just blackshark Reply

    blackshark - I'm back!
  • @MorneN (Comment 85) : sorry – typo. I wouldn’t pick Stef ahead of him :mrgreen:

  • Comment 87, posted at 28.10.08 13:55:23 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
  • @MorneN (Comment 85) : I’m pretty sure he meant “he wouldn’t”… 😆

  • Comment 88, posted at 28.10.08 13:55:28 by just blackshark Reply

    blackshark - I'm back!
  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 87) :

    Thought so, otherwise your sentence would not have made a lot of sense.

  • Comment 89, posted at 28.10.08 13:56:19 by MorneN Reply
  • @just blackshark (Comment 88) : aaah – the magic edit button 🙂

  • Comment 90, posted at 28.10.08 13:56:22 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
  • @MorneN (Comment 89) : yeah – cos I ALWAYS make sense 🙂

  • Comment 91, posted at 28.10.08 13:57:16 by robdylan (CC Champ '08) Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 91) :

    Right on! 😀

  • Comment 92, posted at 28.10.08 13:58:13 by MorneN Reply
  • @robdylan (CC Champ ‘08) (Comment 90) : :mrgreen:

    @MorneN (Comment 82) : I also don’t get the “Frans ahead of JdV” hype.
    Steyn has improved in the last couple of games but that doesn’t mean he has to waltz into the starting 15 Bok squad. People should understand that being picked for the squad…especially being in the 22…means a great deal on it’s own.

    The day we accept that we cannot have all our good players on the field at the same time – and start realising that it’s cool to have a huge pool of players to choose from – even if some of them have to stay at home next to the phone…that’s the day we’ll prevent a lot of self-inflicted headaches.

  • Comment 93, posted at 28.10.08 14:05:04 by just blackshark Reply

    blackshark - I'm back!
  • i will still pick andre pretorius on flyhalf… 😉

    seriously though, guys, why don`t we have a World Class Flyhalf?? we have flyhalfs who can play there, but he has some kind of weakness, defence, kicking, attacking play… whatever… The All Blacks have 5 Flyhalves (when you see a player like Nick Evans leaving and dont be worried about it, then you know you`ve got depth…) and i hear they are talking up that flyhalf of canterbury…

    ok, my question is – how come we dont deliver that type of flyhalfs? The caters, wilko`s etc? is it our type of play? is it not maybe that you are told from schools level what to do on the field? no freedom to try things?

  • Comment 94, posted at 28.10.08 14:18:11 by VanWilder Reply

  • @just blackshark (Comment 93) :
    So true,
    We will never be able to actually have all our best players on the field at the same time.
    Im not sure how cool it is if you are the best in your position and you have to sit next to the phone waiting for a call. Time will come when that phone will ring but no one will amswer.

    BTW who is advocating Steyn ahead of JdeV, haven’t seen that one anywhere.

  • Comment 95, posted at 28.10.08 14:27:21 by Salmonoid Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Salmonoid the Subtle
  • @VanWilder (Comment 94) :

    Hey Dan Carter isn’t even good enough to be their 1st choice flyhalf anymore.

    All Blacks versus Wallabies this weekend: 1 Tony Woodcock, 2 Andrew Hore, 3 Neemia Tialata, 4 Brad Thorn, 5 Ali Williams, 6 Jerome Kaino, 7 Richie McCaw (c), 8 Rodney So’oialo, 9 Jimmy Cowan, 10 Stephen Donald, 11 Sitiveni Sivivatu, 12 Daniel Carter, 13 Conrad Smith, 14 Hosea Gear, 15 Mils Muliaina.
    Reserves: Keven Mealamu, Greg Somerville, Anthony Boric, Adam Thomson, Piri Weepu, Ma’a Nonu, Isaia Toeava.

  • Comment 96, posted at 28.10.08 14:32:06 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 8) : brent russell wasn’t good enough to handle it. ruan is a few classes above brent. also the way the sharks play position change doesn’t really effect a player. the sharks backline are expected to play whats in front of them. the only thing that gets messed up is combos, and a change from 9 to ten doesn’t mess with combos that much.

  • Comment 97, posted at 28.10.08 14:33:44 by try time Reply

  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 96) : whats the thinking around that? the kiwi`s really think donald is THAT good to let one of the best ever flyhalves play out of position?? But what a team hey?? gonna be a cracker…

    why dont the sharks buy Stephan Brett from the Crusaders, let him get citizenship, and pick him for the Springboks… mmmmm, i mean, for our national team…. 😈

  • Comment 98, posted at 28.10.08 14:38:23 by VanWilder Reply

  • @VanWilder (Comment 98) : sorry for beeing so Cheecky….

  • Comment 99, posted at 28.10.08 14:39:30 by VanWilder Reply

  • @VanWilder (Comment 98) :

    Carter moves to second-five after playing the first 40 minutes of last week’s clash between the All Black training squad and the Barbarians in the No 12 jersey.

    The move will afford the All Blacks with strong kicking options at both first and second-five, something they haven’t been able to boost with Ma’a Nonu’s selection at second-five.

    It seems like sound reasoning to me. It also raises the question, does that mean Donald can’t play 12?

  • Comment 100, posted at 28.10.08 14:41:47 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @VanWilder (Comment 99) :

    Bwhahahahaha :mrgreen:

  • Comment 101, posted at 28.10.08 14:42:25 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©
  • @KSA Shark © (Comment 100) : that`s a good question. all the AB commentators thought that donald would play centre if they both were to play together! i think carter would ultimatly be the better choice on centre IMO…

  • Comment 102, posted at 28.10.08 14:52:59 by VanWilder Reply

  • Just one last thing on Earl… if he could just take off all those strappings, gloves and COLOURFUL pads etc, he would, just maybe, start to look like a rugby player… is he scared or something??

  • Comment 103, posted at 28.10.08 14:59:25 by VanWilder Reply

  • @VanWilder (Comment 103) :

    Well it’s not the “or something bit” 😉

  • Comment 104, posted at 28.10.08 15:04:59 by KSA Shark © Reply

    KSA Shark ©

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