More questions than answers

Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :Original Content, Springboks on 29 Nov 2010 at 13:06
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So the question on everyone’s lips at the moment, I guess, is bound to be “have the Boks turned the corner?”, after a gutsy win against England that was as impressive as it was convincing. The “fire Peter de Villiers” brigade got exactly what they didn’t want this weekend, with a tour return of 3 from 4 seemingly enough to guarantee the Bok coach his tenure until the 2011 World Cup.

SARU President Regan Hoskins seemed to confirm as much after the England victory, suggesting that despite the typical “post tour review” session, no drastic activities (read firing the coaching staff) are on the table. To be honest, if they didn’t see fit to get rid of de Villiers after a Tri-Nations campaign that returned only a single win from six starts, it’s highly unlikely that winning three on the road – with a weakened team to boot – would provide the necessary ammunition.

“That’s not the point,” we all scream in unison… “The Boks lost to SCOTLAND, for goodness sake! And played the most uninspiring brand of crap rugby we’ve seen since Straeuli!” Those please, it would appear, are falling on deaf ears and the Bok camp are claiming the morale-boosting win against England as an important marker ahead of the World Cup.

I, for one, don’t buy it. Sure, the Boks forwards were superb against England and I’ll take my hat off to Os du Randt and Gary Gold for finally extracting a complete performance out of a pack that, on paper at least, surely must be the best in the world, even with Deon Stegmann along for the ride. Questions MUST be asked, though, about the inconsistency, not only on this tour, but all year too. That is by-the-by, though, for even the most one-eyed of Bok supporters will need to admit that the back line, once again, dished up the sort of fare that would have any halfway-decent school first team coach tearing his hair out in frustration. For a team boasting close on 70% possession to be completely unable to fashion any sort of scoring opportunity is frankly inexcusable and those who will use this performance as justification for feeling Bok rugby has “turned some sort of corner” are deluding themselves.

Don’t get me wrong – the Boks won and won well, but the opposition hardly pitched for the game and apart from a superb performance from the pack, there really wasn’t a huge amount to write home about. The Boks – particularly amongst the backs – do not look as though they’re actually being coached to DO anything, which is broadly in line with Dick Muir’s historical approach and while this shortcoming was not enough to prevent a victory against a horribly under-par England side, we are certainly not going to win too many games against the All Blacks or the Wallabies with our backs playing the way they did on Saturday.

Therein lies the catch 22. It is too late to expect anyone to meaningfully fix this situation and even if de Villiers were to be given the old heave-ho, there are no obvious candidates lined up to replace him – willing to take on the job with all its well-known provisos, gotchas and pitfalls. SARU’s proposed response, which (if rumour is to be believed) is to introduce yet more failed coaches into the mix, adding an “advisory committee” of former Bok mentors, none of whom has been any more successful than de Villiers himself when asked to coach at the highest level, is clearly the most wrong strategy they could possibly adopt. In a team that is crying out for clear leadership and direction from a single person – one prepared to dictate the style of play and live or die by that decision – adding yet more voices to the clamour cannot achieve anything other than more confusion.


  • My question is: What happens when John Smit returns? I’ve got a lot of respect for the guy and will always have. But there is a fair amount of players better than him.

  • Comment 1, posted at 29.11.10 13:15:12 by Jarson (AddicteD) Reply
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  • I had a quick glance at the tests for 2010.

    For each of the 14 tests played this year, the backline only remained unchanged once between two tests.

    Compare this to the consistency the AB’s enjoyed this year, or the consistency we enjoyed last year…

  • Comment 2, posted at 29.11.10 13:24:09 by Morné Reply
  • @Morné (Comment 2) : why was that, though? Injury? Or inconsistent selections cos the coaching team don’t actually know what they’re trying to achieve?

  • Comment 3, posted at 29.11.10 13:27:54 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 3) :

    Injury, suspension, poor form and inconsistent selection.

    Problem is, when your team or in this case backline, is built around one person you are always going to be in trouble, and our backline and 80% of our game strategy is built around Fourie du Preez.

    And make no mistake, NZ has the same problem, take Carter out of that team (as a few occassions this year showed) and they look clueless.

    In fact, has anyone asked why Henry did not use the European tour to blood back-up’s for McCaw and Carter???

  • Comment 4, posted at 29.11.10 13:32:13 by Morné Reply
  • @Jarson (AddicteD) (Comment 1) : I agree. John is no longer among the top 2 hookers in the country and he has proved unsuccessfull at tighthead. Best chance probably at loosehead but he is also not better than the Beast or Guthro. I really don’t know what should be done in this situation.

  • Comment 5, posted at 29.11.10 13:36:06 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 3) : To be fair I’m sure a backline of du Preez ,Morne, de Jongh, Fourie would have done better that the make shift backline we had for this tour.

  • Comment 6, posted at 29.11.10 13:38:05 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 4) :

    Valid points.

    On the other hand (Darren) the question remains why in the Currie Cup the Sharks coaches managed to take a back line that was considered second rate by many and form it into an effective attacking unit. Why couldn’t the Bok coaching team come any where nearing doing the same?

  • Comment 7, posted at 29.11.10 13:39:35 by Dive Pass Reply

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  • So the question on everyone’s lips at the moment, I guess, is bound to be “have the Boks turned the corner?”

    Doubtful that this is the question on everyone’s lips. I suspect most people realise that in spite of our dominating forwards this can hardly be described as a convincing win.

  • Comment 8, posted at 29.11.10 13:41:55 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @Dive Pass (Comment 7) : hit the nail on the head there, matey.

  • Comment 9, posted at 29.11.10 13:49:29 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 5) : What Do Do With John Smit – The Solution: Lobby the IRB to implement the following law changes:

    1) Allow selective time-out periods, up to a predetermined cumulative total, which can be invoked at the request of either coaching team (similar to NBA games)
    2) Split the responsibility between captaincy and communication
    3) Allow multiple usage of a specialist player on the bench (again, looking at American sports, the kicker in NFL games)
    4) Appoint John as a specialist bench player whose job it is to a) call the time-outs, b) interact with the referee and provide motivational speeches and/or guidance to the team, and c) help out in the event of an injury to a front-rower.


  • Comment 10, posted at 29.11.10 13:54:07 by Culling Song Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 9) : Is the rumours about Rudolf, Carel and Harry been confirmed….eish a step in the wrong direction I think.

  • Comment 11, posted at 29.11.10 13:55:48 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 10) : you don’t maybe have a simple solution? :mrgreen: 🙄

  • Comment 12, posted at 29.11.10 13:56:07 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 11) : that one’s according to JJ Harmse’s “impeccable” sources

  • Comment 13, posted at 29.11.10 13:56:42 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 10) : That quite a bit to ask the IRB just to include one player 😉

  • Comment 14, posted at 29.11.10 13:58:17 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Dive Pass (Comment 7) : Because they’re not willing to use Lambie, who was a huge part of the turn around for the Sharks backline.

    Using Morne Steyn shows that they value place kicking more than they value a good attacking backline.

    Luckily we will see Lambie in the backline this week.

  • Comment 15, posted at 29.11.10 13:58:26 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 10) : 😯

    This would completely ruin rugby in my opinion.

  • Comment 16, posted at 29.11.10 13:58:39 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 13) : I see 🙄

  • Comment 17, posted at 29.11.10 13:58:48 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Culling Song (Comment 10) : If we do have a specialist sub, don’t you think that sub should be Morne Steyn to take the kicks? Then we can finally select the best 10 not just the 10 that can kick.

  • Comment 18, posted at 29.11.10 14:00:36 by Letgo Reply
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  • @Dive Pass (Comment 7) :

    I think all (especiall on this site) will agree that the Sharks had a great turn-around from a disappointing Super 14. But also for a second consider the dynamics of coaching at these different levels.

    The Sharks, or any union, has 40+ (senior) players contracted at any one time. They control all levels of playing from age-group (under 19) to senior level.

    So in total it is safe to assume across different levels they have 60+ players contracted to the union (U/19, U/21, Vodacom Cup, Super rugby & Currie Cup).

    They have (some are already back in the paddock) 8 to 10 weeks prior to any competition to prep and condition players.

    A Super rugby seasons (Super 14) runs from February, to May (4 months) in which they play 13 games minimum.

    Currie Cup (2010 format) starts in July, ends October (4 months) in which they play 11 games minimum.

    That is to summarise;

    10 months in total they have access to their players (60+ in total) including off-season prep work or camps.

    The Boks this year got together the Monday after the Super 14 final, they played that Saturday against Wales.

    A week later, we played France in CPT.

    The two weekends following that, we played Italy twice (Witbank & PE).

    Then there was 1 week break (from memory), and we landed in Auckland to play the All Blacks with successive games in the following 3 weeks against the All Blacks (Wellington) and Australia (Brisbane).

    We then had a 3 week break, of which some guys spent rehabilitating (most of them having played non-stop rugby since February, Super 14).

    Played the All Blacks (Soweto) and Australia in 3 successive weekends.

    Then came the much discussed conditioning program of all contracted Boks (I think most will remember the details of that disaster and the union in-fighting).

    Then they returned to the Currie Cup, played semi’s and finals, and played Ireland one week after the Currie Cup final.

    All in all, the Boks played 14 games (tests) in 2010, with only 4 weeks available for conditioning of any sorts which was in itself hampered and derailed because of stupid administrative in-fighting.

    So yes, it is fair to expect a turn-around, or gradually better performances from the Boks, but given the only place they can do this are in actual tests (to experiment) and the absolute furor that erupts if we lose one test, can we really compare the two spheres?

    Next year, the All Blacks have already made public their plans to work with the Super 15 coaches, deciding who to rest when, as they did by gradually bringing back international players from the 3N this year into their domestic competition depending on game time they achieved (McCaw and Carter played little to no role as an example in their equivalent of the CC).

    Sometimes we just need to sit back and look beyond failings of our teams as the fault of just the coaches…


  • Comment 19, posted at 29.11.10 14:02:13 by Morné Reply
  • @Letgo (Comment 18) : Glad to see *somebody* buys into my creative thinking…

  • Comment 20, posted at 29.11.10 14:14:55 by Culling Song Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 19) : the coaches does select the team though and the Bok backline already looked better with Adi at 13.

  • Comment 21, posted at 29.11.10 14:17:29 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 12) : OK, in all seriousness, I’d say we can’t do without John in the squad, but much as I hate saying this (my wife accuses me of being a John Smit groupie) I am not convinced that he should be in the starting lineup. At least from the bench he can be deployed where any of the front-rowers are having a bad day at the office, and his experience would be very useful at the death. This is of course assuming some degree of intelligent use of the substitutes bench, and that we’re not trailing by 30 points…

  • Comment 22, posted at 29.11.10 14:18:50 by Culling Song Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 21) :

    We had 3 of our regular, or first choice centers at home for this tour.

    Any team that loses this amount of experience or man-power is going to struggle, and Adi had not touched a ball in how many months prior to the tour?

    I would have picked him too, but apparently he was way off the pace during practices on tour.

  • Comment 23, posted at 29.11.10 14:21:41 by Morné Reply
  • @Culling Song (Comment 22) : Now this I agree with :mrgreen:

    I’d even take him to the World Cup in a consultant role should he get injured or decide to retire beforehand

  • Comment 24, posted at 29.11.10 14:25:32 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 23) : The backline has been severly depleted and for that I will agree. Our forwards are looking great and with the backline below we should do well.

    9 Fourie
    10 Morne/ Lambie
    11 Mvovo/Habana
    12. JdV/JdJ
    13. Mossie
    14. Aplon/JPP
    15. Aplon/Frans

  • Comment 25, posted at 29.11.10 14:27:17 by Pokkel Reply
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  • Anyone notice John Smit was present following the English test this Saturday (saw him in the changeroom)?

    A RWC squad will have 3 hookers. John will be one of them.

  • Comment 26, posted at 29.11.10 14:28:20 by Morné Reply
  • I see John was with the Boks this week…did he have an influence on the game I wonder?

  • Comment 27, posted at 29.11.10 14:29:59 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 25) :

    On Saturday I had flashbacks of 2004, and the infamous ‘men against boys test’ where the Boks lost to England, but one Bryan Habana made his debut and scored his first try for the Boks…

    I have told Rob Mvovo will become a legend in SA Rugby, and I still stand by that.

    But for the record, I would not have used him, or Lambie (and since this is a Sharks site let me include Alberts) any other way on this tour.

  • Comment 28, posted at 29.11.10 14:30:34 by Morné Reply
  • @Morné (Comment 26) : What would youdo with John Smit?

  • Comment 29, posted at 29.11.10 14:30:39 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 29) :

    So much depends on what will happen in the next 8 months. If he is fit, and injury free, I will play him (but small things like game time with the Sharks during 2011 will also be factored in).

  • Comment 30, posted at 29.11.10 14:34:12 by Morné Reply
  • IMHO we have definitely not turned the corner, and let me tell you why.

    A great performance against the English over the weekendm no doubt about that.

    The problem comes in whereby we need to pull it out the fire and really grit to win.
    We’re not playing smart, we’re playing hard. Well, to be more exact, we’re out-muscling opponents and using this to make up for a flawed stategy.
    The problem with this approach, however, is that you’ll always be in trouble the minute an opposing team takes the field and is able to match you physically.
    You’re also in trouble when you “dont pitch” for the game.

    This was passion rugby at its most poignant. It works, but it works over the short-term and is usually played best when the side has their backs to the wall.

    As a long-term strategy I dont think we’re anywhere close to getting it right. Our backs especially look incredibly flat and even our strike runners were hitting flat when receiving the short ball on the fringes.

    Funnily enough passion rugby has been known to win world cups but, as I’m from the camp that believes too much prominence is placed on the Webb Ellis trophy, I’d prefer us adapting to the rules a bit better and win games through out-thinking our opponents than trying to win games through attrition and bludgeoning opponents into submission.
    A combination of the sheer bloody-mindedness displayed on Saturday along with some tactical nous would be a truly formidable combination.

  • Comment 31, posted at 29.11.10 14:34:23 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @Morné (Comment 28) : I recon Mvovo can become a legend now we just need to get the ball to him more often.

    You say you wouldn’t have change the way Lambie was used..does this mean you agree with Divvy on bringing Lambie on in 3 games where the Boks were in trouble but not in the England game were it was dry and the Boks were in command?

  • Comment 32, posted at 29.11.10 14:34:32 by Pokkel Reply
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  • And just to add, johnny Smit is done. He may get a reprieve from Peter de Villiers as he can seemingly only pronounce a limited number of names when announcing his tour squads, but that’ll onyl be a reprieve.
    Bismarck has for once and all shown he is the premier hooker in the Republic at present and, with PdV not willing to pick a real player in the nr 6 jersey, he’s the closest we get to a fetcher in the side.

  • Comment 33, posted at 29.11.10 14:36:28 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @Pokkel (Comment 32) :

    Stoopid subs all tour long.

    Getting the ball to Mvovo is only half the game. I’m not a big advocate of shovelling shit down the backline and in my opinion the centres arent creating enough opportunities to bring the wingers into the game.
    Some of it seems to be team orders with Jean being mostly emplyed as a strike runner.

  • Comment 34, posted at 29.11.10 14:38:10 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @Pokkel (Comment 32) :

    We were in command too often and fell apart through subs.

    Lambie situation is simple in my view. I will not put myself in a position in test rugby where I do not have a kicker that average 75% plus.

    Not ever.

    I think personally what Lambie, Alberts and Mvovo will take from this tour into 2011 and beyond, will be invaluable. And I made the point in a column not too long ago, that this should always have been the mission.

  • Comment 35, posted at 29.11.10 14:38:22 by Morné Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 33) : Bissie is the best hooker in the world bar none.

  • Comment 36, posted at 29.11.10 14:39:55 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 35) : So do you agree with the timing of the subs then?

  • Comment 37, posted at 29.11.10 14:41:53 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 36) : and a while ago some so called Sharks supporters didn’t even want him in the Sharks team 😉

  • Comment 38, posted at 29.11.10 14:45:04 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 38) : or his brother Jannie 😆

  • Comment 39, posted at 29.11.10 14:45:45 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 37) :

    For England?

    Didn’t negatively affect the game at all so yes, don’t see much wrong.

  • Comment 40, posted at 29.11.10 14:46:47 by Morné Reply
  • @Morné (Comment 40) : and the other 3 games?

  • Comment 41, posted at 29.11.10 14:48:36 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 39) : I will put my hand up and admit I got that one wrong

  • Comment 42, posted at 29.11.10 14:48:38 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 40) :

    I think he was referring to the subs through-out the tour.
    Nice side-step though.

  • Comment 43, posted at 29.11.10 14:49:11 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @Morné (Comment 19) :

    Valid points on the time the Bok coaches having less time with the players compared to the provincial/Super coaches. The greatest legacy of White was building a core of Bok players with extensive experience and particularly experience playing together.

    De Villiers, to his credit, recognised the foundation of White’s success and continued with it.

    But if I understand your argument correctly the only reason for the Bok’s backline failure is:
    – the inability of new players to assimilate to the Bok game plan
    – missing key backline player in De Preez

    So you are saying the Bok’s had a sound back line strategy and it was purely execution?

  • Comment 44, posted at 29.11.10 14:49:12 by Dive Pass Reply

    Dive Pass
  • @robdylan (Comment 42) :

    Me too Rob. But then their attitude seems to have done a 180 degree turn.

  • Comment 45, posted at 29.11.10 14:49:55 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @Pokkel (Comment 41) : Morras is an old pro… he’s going to avoid that question all day long!

  • Comment 46, posted at 29.11.10 14:51:04 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 42) : 😉

  • Comment 47, posted at 29.11.10 14:51:10 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Dive Pass (Comment 44) :

    DP – PdV did well not to throw away the Jake White playbook and ti served us well through-out 2009.

    But rugby has since moved on and the rules have changed, menaing the gameplan simply has to evolve as the law changes have largely been made to negate the kick-and-chase gameplan!

  • Comment 48, posted at 29.11.10 14:51:43 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 45) : we will never know what went on there. I’m just pleased that it’s fixed now.

    You guys must come over!

  • Comment 49, posted at 29.11.10 14:52:02 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 46) : I see that but hell it’s worth a try 😀

  • Comment 50, posted at 29.11.10 14:52:45 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Pokkel (Comment 41) :

    Simple answer, no. Subs has been my biggest gripe in Bok rugby for the last 7 years.

    @VinChainSaw (Comment 43) :


    @Dive Pass (Comment 44) :


    The Bok coaches failed to identify the right combinations throuhout the year. Any one will tell you success is built around consistency. Even if you are down to the 4th guy in line, at least afford the bloody oke a string of games in one position to establish himself, yet we changed every combination every single test almost.

    But yes, and I mentioned this and you referred to it again. The Boks (not too dissimalar from the AB’s) rely heavily on a couple of individuals.

    Fourie du Preez is one of them. I think we underestimate his loss and yes perhaps we can rightly ask why no-one was nurtured to take over from him in cases of emergency, but my counter will be players like Fourie, and Dan Carter, simply cannot be replaced – not as easily as people make it out.

  • Comment 51, posted at 29.11.10 14:54:30 by Morné Reply
  • @Morné (Comment 51) : I would add Jaque Fourie to that list as well

  • Comment 52, posted at 29.11.10 14:56:26 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 51) :

    Du Preez is an interesting one.

    I, for one, am not convinced he’ll be around for the world cup so reckon its best to plan without him.
    We’ve all seen players come back from a long lay-off (and this one has been looooooong) and take a long time to get back up to the grade.

    I’m also not so sure is there is anythign driving Fourie anymore. He’s won every trophy there is to win and was speaking of retirement before he injured his shoulder again.

  • Comment 53, posted at 29.11.10 14:58:27 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @Morné (Comment 51) :

    Interesting Henry has abandoned the “build 2 AB teams of equal strength” philosophy of 2006 in favour of “a best team approach”.

    However notwithstanding the injury problems which I acknowledge had a huge impact, I am still not convinced that the Bok coaches have a valid backline attacking strategy. The strategy seems somewhere in no man’s land between the Lions 2010 Super 14 one and the kick and chase strategy.

  • Comment 54, posted at 29.11.10 15:04:53 by Dive Pass Reply

    Dive Pass
  • @Dive Pass (Comment 54) :

    I’m not too surprised really – this is the last roll of the dice for Graham and his coaches. Richie McCaw’s last chance at a WC winner’s medla too I would suspect.

  • Comment 55, posted at 29.11.10 15:06:55 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 53) :

    I reckon Fourie is invaluable dude.

    @Dive Pass (Comment 54) : @VinChainSaw (Comment 55) :

    Like the Boks, the AB’s are saying goodbey to a generation of players following RWC 2011…

  • Comment 56, posted at 29.11.10 15:18:34 by Morné Reply
  • @Morné (Comment 56) : It might not be easy but it sure as hell is going to be very exciting.

  • Comment 57, posted at 29.11.10 15:21:34 by Pokkel Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 56) :

    Do you reckon McCaw has another World Cup in him?

  • Comment 58, posted at 29.11.10 15:22:49 by Richard Ferguson Reply
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  • @Richard Ferguson (Comment 58) :

    After 2011?

    Nope, I reckon he will call it a day and maybe go make some dosh in Europe or Japan.

  • Comment 59, posted at 29.11.10 15:28:53 by Morné Reply
  • FDP and Schalk are 2 players we depend too heavily on – losing them will derail our WC campaign, while if they stay fit, we have very strong chances of winning.

    Same is true of NZ with Carter and McCaw. Players like these will always shape team strategies around them – they are that good.

    Ideally SA would have invested in similar players as back up to FDP and Schak. Kockott could have stepped up for FDP had he worked on his attitude and a few technical issues, but who can replace Schalk? This is the problem facing the coaches.

    Alea jacta est.

  • Comment 60, posted at 29.11.10 15:31:21 by Big Fish Reply
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  • @Big Fish (Comment 60) : Jean Deysel

  • Comment 61, posted at 29.11.10 15:46:07 by robdylan Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 61) :

    He is more crocked than Schalk, and that’s a lot!

  • Comment 62, posted at 29.11.10 15:48:13 by Morné Reply
  • @robdylan (Comment 61) :

    Or the player that made sure he is not on tour now…..Alberts. Schalk has never been a beer jockey, so either would do.

  • Comment 63, posted at 29.11.10 15:49:24 by Dive Pass Reply

    Dive Pass
  • @Dive Pass (Comment 63) :

    Schalk is only 26/7 years old which means he will be around after the RWC next year.

    He said as much earlier this season.

  • Comment 64, posted at 29.11.10 15:55:22 by wpw Reply
  • @wpw (Comment 64) :

    Ja but I’m a one eyed Sharks supporter who rates Alberts and Deysel ahead of Schalk…..

  • Comment 65, posted at 29.11.10 15:57:15 by Dive Pass Reply

    Dive Pass
  • @Morné (Comment 62) : ooooph…. can’t really argue

  • Comment 66, posted at 29.11.10 16:10:04 by robdylan Reply
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  • @Morné (Comment 56) :

    I agree FdP is invaluable dude. But, and this is a big but, I’ve also seen players come back from long-term injury and just not be the same player as before.
    A little bit slower, the box kicks (with which FdP made a name for himself) are just that little bit off etc and suddenly the player is 6-12 months away from being where he was.
    For that reason alone I cannot think we should depend on FdP to be our talisman come WC2011.

    I would love him to be in top form but my fear is he simply wont be and we’ll end up playing him simply because he is FdP.

  • Comment 67, posted at 29.11.10 16:19:42 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @Dive Pass (Comment 65) :

    Burger aged 27
    Alberts aged 26
    Deyzel aged 25

    Burger 63 test caps
    Alberts 3 test caps
    Deyzel uncapped

    Alberts and Deyzel are fantastic players, but come talk to when they’ve achieved half of what Schalk has achieved.
    They’re virtually the same age but Schalk already has an entire career behind him with the other two only just starting out.

  • Comment 68, posted at 29.11.10 16:24:17 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 68) :

    I have learnt to never let facts get in the way of a good opinion….

  • Comment 69, posted at 29.11.10 16:27:48 by Dive Pass Reply

    Dive Pass
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 68) : Firstly, it’s DeySel with an S.
    Secondly, he got a cap against Italy last year.

    Doesn’t detract from your argument, but still, better to get these things straight!

  • Comment 70, posted at 29.11.10 16:45:38 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
  • @robdylan (Comment 70) :

    When looking up caps I use the tool on the supersport website… obviously DeySel doesnt come up if you type in DeyZel…

    pedant… 😉

  • Comment 71, posted at 29.11.10 16:47:17 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 71) : tch…. when I searched for AfkopHoender it didn’t give any caps for him either… 🙂

  • Comment 72, posted at 29.11.10 16:50:48 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
  • @VinChainSaw (Comment 68) : @VinChainSaw (Comment 67) : @VinChainSaw (Comment 31) : I hate top disagree with you But the win against England was the turning point and we are on the way back the similarities between 2006 and 2010 are uncanny
    2006 was racked with injuries same for 2010 coach getting fired if you believe all the press and guess what they were wrong then and now
    When you consider the side that started against England and what will start the RWC
    15 Steyn not Krusty
    14 JPP not Aplon
    13 Fourie not Steyn
    12 JDV or JDJ
    14 Habana not Mvovo
    10 Steyn
    09 DuPreez not Pienaar
    08 Spies
    07 Smith
    06 Brussow not Segmann
    05 Victoria
    04 Bakkies
    03 BJ or Jannie
    02 Smitty not Bissy
    01 Guthro or Beast

    as many as 8 changes. Remember the RWC is never won by attacking sides but the sides whose defence is best. Even when the Aussies won it it was a defensive game

    So to recap the Boks will win the RWC cos there defensive game is better than any of the others and we have 3 very good kickers to keep the sides back in their own 22
    Now I would love for it to be a flowing game with 20 tries and Pat Lambie showing how good he is However at the end of the day ask yourself this RWC final scores level we get a penalty in the last minute It is on their 10 meter line do we kick for touch and try and maul the ball finally passing the ball down the line and Habana scoring in the corner with a brilliant move. Or do we take the 3 points?
    We take the 3 points

  • Comment 73, posted at 29.11.10 17:15:51 by Fattmann Reply
    Competition Winner
  • @Fattmann (Comment 73) :

    Fattman, i agree with you the similarities with 2006 are there.
    But so are they with the squad in 1998 that also lost to Scotland…

    Also, I’d agree wholeheartedly, except that IMHO the game we’re playing today is not the same game as was played in the world cup in 2007. World Cups may traditionally have been won on defence but then I also think the rules have changed to such an extent that this may no longer be the case going forward.

    Simply put, kickers, while still imperative in the modern game, have less influence today than they did in 2007, or at any point before that.
    My contention that we have not yet turned the corner is very much about us still winning “on passion” instead of being technically astute and varying our game with the changes in opposition and with the changes in rules.
    Arguably I think we play a bette rkick-and-chase game now than we did at any point under Jake. Only difference is that the kick-and-chase gameplan is many times less relevant today than it was under Jake.

    Anyway, our defence this year has been abysmal.

    So, with respect, I’m at complete odds with you over this one.

    As for your quesiton about taking the kick or the penalty – mate if we get to within 3 points in the final of the WC next year using THIS gameplan – well then I’ll my shoes.

  • Comment 74, posted at 29.11.10 17:28:08 by VinChainSaw Reply
  • @Pokkel (Comment 25) :

    I will put Basson ahead of both Mvovo and Habana…provides much more on attack and he is the best in the business under the attacking high ball (he wins a few each game)…considerably more pace and ad’s more spark…Basson also gets around a lot more (not sure if this has to do with his extra pace)…and they are equal on defense (both need work with straight on defense and both really good with cover/side on defense) if compared to Aplon – better with straight on defense than both…better on attack added kicking ability…

  • Comment 75, posted at 29.11.10 17:53:19 by Hmmm Reply

  • @Hmmm (Comment 75) : assuming Basson doesn’t cop the standard 2 year ban for using methylanamaxdopamine, or whatever the hell it’s called.

  • Comment 76, posted at 29.11.10 17:56:36 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
  • Basson v Mvovo is a no-brainer. Mvovo is the real deal, and will be troubling defences for years to come – without any shady substances.

  • Comment 77, posted at 29.11.10 18:05:12 by Big Fish Reply
    Big Fish
  • @Hmmm (Comment 75) : uhm but Basson’s weak point is his defence

    Go watch it carefully

  • Comment 78, posted at 29.11.10 20:46:37 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
  • @robdylan (Comment 76) : Rob , Morne asked me to ask you if you could email his details to me so i can call him, said you have it, if ya dont mind please mate

  • Comment 79, posted at 29.11.10 20:48:15 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 79) : I’m not sure I have your email address, though 🙂

    can you mail me at [email protected]?

  • Comment 80, posted at 29.11.10 21:11:40 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
  • @robdylan (Comment 80) : thanks old chap,you have mail :mrgreen:

  • Comment 81, posted at 29.11.10 21:21:49 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
  • hey rob, i’ve sent you an email – but it had a link in it and might be directed to your spam folder 🙂

  • Comment 82, posted at 29.11.10 23:01:28 by Frisbee Reply

  • @Big Fish (Comment 77) :

    Let’s up aside for the moment the very likely possibility that all the Boks took shady substances and compare them objectively.

    Basson has played a full season of S14 and has proven himself very capable. Mvovo still has to show he can play at the next level.

    In the CC Basson scored 21 tries playing for the 6th placed team and Mvovo scored 12 playing for the 1st placed team.

    In the Bok setup Basson has been preferred.

    Basson has a unique skill that enables him to make his own tries from nothing.

  • Comment 83, posted at 30.11.10 04:38:27 by fyndraai Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
  • Div the idiot continues to frustrate;

    Div happy with playing style – Peter de Villiers says the Springboks will utilise the same playing style that saw them beat England at next year’s World Cup.

    ‘I think we played a style of rugby alien to South African rugby in the Tri-Nations. We should not move away from our traditions,’ he said. ‘People do not want us to play like South Africans because they fear us. That is perhaps one of the biggest lessons we have learned.

    ‘It’s true that we don’t back ourselves enough. We did not play differently from the way we did against Ireland, Wales and Scotland. However, there was purpose in the way we took the ball up and defended against England. That is why I’m excited about the World Cup.’

    De Villiers admitted there is plenty to do before next season. The Boks lost to Scotland, a team the All Blacks thumped the week before. There are a number of differences between the two sides, but arguably the biggest difference is that when the All Blacks come up against a minnow side, they punish them severely.

    ‘The one thing the All Blacks have got right is to pile up the points against teams that are not that strong. We prepare in our minds for a specific team and don’t give them a proper hiding. It’s the South African mindset – just to want to do what is necessary to win.’

    What an idiot, the game plan was just as aimless against Eng as it was in the Tri N, only difference is Eng allowed us to play!

  • Comment 84, posted at 30.11.10 08:42:59 by neilster Reply

  • Basson is not the world,s best defender(might have something to do with lack of bodyweight)..guess he will gain some extra muscle mass at the bulls..

  • Comment 85, posted at 30.11.10 09:31:39 by bergshark Reply

  • Diff between boks and abs..?
    Maybe it is that kaino punches a welsh player and we only get to see ONE-yes,only ONE!!- replay of the incident ..and somehow the touch judge(don’t think it was kaplan ),missed it..
    Now we all know what would have happened if same incident happened and it was a bok that thrwe that punch..
    Or perhaps the diff between boks and abs is brad thorne being allwed to pick up and slamdunk john smit and only getting a pen awarded against him!!imagine what would have happened if bakkies did that to mcgaw!!!
    Or perhaps the diff between abs is skinner between allowed to beat up chris koch and jaap bekker in 3rd test 1956 ..
    Or sandy carmichael (scots prop and deemed the anchor of british lions scrum) having his cheekbones fractured in a match vs canterbury in 1971,an act which the british lions believe was intrntionally done to end the tour of a opp matchwinner!!how is that for callous and barbaric!!
    And then mealamu and umaga double team on o,
    ‘Driscoll in first test 2005 to end his tour ..

    And where are the bans??
    Where is the outcry from the ruggby world??
    Perhaps that is the diff between abs and boks..

  • Comment 86, posted at 30.11.10 09:52:28 by bergshark Reply

  • Sorry if above comment reads a bit funny lol txting from mobile

  • Comment 87, posted at 30.11.10 09:55:53 by bergshark Reply


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