robdylan

It’s all over for Wilkinson


Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :Original Content on 13 Dec 2011 at 08:11
Tagged with : , , , ,

English flyhalf Jonny Wilkinson has announced his retirement from test rugby, after a career spanning 91 tests for his country and 6 tests for the British and Irish Lions.

Wilkinson, now 32, will continue to play for French club Toulon, but has decided to call time on an international career that has stagnated somewhat since his exploits back in 2003 that saw his side win the Webb Ellis Cup. Injuries and patchy form have blighted his international record over the past 8 years and while he will retire on 1197 career points – comfortably the most an Englishman has ever scored in a career – one can only wonder at what he could have achieved had he not been struck down so cruelly in his prime.

The personal statement on Wilkinson’s website gave some indication of the playre’s thoughts: “To say I have played through four World Cups, two Lions tours, 91 international games and a ridiculous number of injuries and other setbacks gives me an incredibly special feeling of fulfilment.

“But by now I know myself well enough to know that I will never truly be satisfied!” he added.

We’d like to wish Johnny well for the future.


164 Comments

  • Top player, unlucky with injuries. Hear his work ethic was second to none.

  • Comment 1, posted at 13.12.11 08:27:13 by The Quirk Reply
    Author
    The Quirk
     
  • Great player, always took England seriously when he played

  • Comment 2, posted at 13.12.11 08:27:42 by Mutley Reply
    Author
    Mutley
     
  • Best flyhalf in the World in 2003 imo.

  • Comment 3, posted at 13.12.11 08:29:29 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • Now who is going to teach young kids to stand like a retard before kicking the ball?? Good player though! Smit,Matfield,Williams, Wilkinson…which legend next?

  • Comment 4, posted at 13.12.11 08:32:15 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • KING!

  • Comment 5, posted at 13.12.11 08:42:12 by Clayton(PJLD) Reply
    Administrator
    Clayton(PJLD)
     
  • I know Dan Carter is all that a bag of windchips but I’ve always been a bigger fan of Johnny W.

  • Comment 6, posted at 13.12.11 08:43:20 by Clayton(PJLD) Reply
    Administrator
    Clayton(PJLD)
     
  • @Clayton(PJLD) (Comment 6) :

    Agreed.

    I think more highly of Jonny Wilkinson & Stephen Larkham.

    And Henry Honiball of course πŸ™„ :mrgreen:

  • Comment 7, posted at 13.12.11 08:55:52 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 7) : Honiball (Lem πŸ™‚ ) is my favourite, but Jonny is right up there as well.

    Saw a replay of him against Ireland from 2003 on Channel 231. The way he ran was amazing. Can’t believe everyone thinks of him as just a kicking flyhalf.

  • Comment 8, posted at 13.12.11 08:59:09 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • The guy is a legend. His defence is solid as a rock as well.

  • Comment 9, posted at 13.12.11 09:01:28 by PTAShark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Dragnipur
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 7) : You’re learning! Good man! :mrgreen:

    After Lem, Larkham’s my favourite international flyhalf. Despite some severe deficiencies in his game, he was a true match winner, and super compelling to watch

  • Comment 10, posted at 13.12.11 09:04:42 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling Song
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 10) : Larkham was the guy every kid at school wanted to play like. Imagine Wilko had had his own George Gregan to play with, someone who he played club and test rugby with.

  • Comment 11, posted at 13.12.11 09:08:40 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • Had a brilliant 1999!

    May be remembered as the greatest goal kicker of all time!

  • Comment 12, posted at 13.12.11 09:13:34 by Hertford Highlander Reply
    Competition WinnerCompetition WinnerCompetition Winner Author
    Hertford Highlander
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 11) : That Gregan/Larkham combo was (and still is) pretty much peerless

  • Comment 13, posted at 13.12.11 09:15:22 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling Song
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 13) : I don’t think we’ll ever see another one like it. The Genia/Cooper one doesn’t have that feel.

  • Comment 14, posted at 13.12.11 09:23:10 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 10) : Interesting that you mention Larkham as he was certainly a great international flyhalf BUT he was not a goal kicker! I only mention it because a lot of people say Lambie shouldnt be the Bok flyhalf cos his goalkicking isnt up to scratch.

  • Comment 15, posted at 13.12.11 09:23:21 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 15) :

    Australia had a lot of goalkickers all across the pitch though.

    Who does SA have? We don’t want to be accommodating a player elsewhere just so Lambie can play.

    Only of flyhalves (which is the position you propose he should be playing):

    Francois Steyn – Doesn’t want to be taking the normal kicks, and isn’t very accurate from anywhere but in front anyway. Might as well stick with Lambie then in that case.

    Ruan Pienaar – Going to make the starting line-up? No, probably not.

  • Comment 16, posted at 13.12.11 09:27:32 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 15) : Why does the flyhalf have to be the goalkicker? France always use their scrummy to kick. I reckon Lambie should be our 10 going forward as he has this uncanny skill to release those around him. Failing that what about him as a 12? I just want him with ball in hand as often as possible and I don’t think 15 gives him the opportunity.

    Having said all that, he was awesome for the Boks at 15 and I would certainly not be upset if he was our fullback going forward.

  • Comment 17, posted at 13.12.11 09:28:17 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • Watch out for the Genia James o Bieber combination in years to come too… He’ll probably prove me wrong, but i think QC has probably had his moment in the sun at 10 for the Aussies…

  • Comment 18, posted at 13.12.11 09:31:41 by The Quirk Reply
    Author
    The Quirk
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 17) :

    I reckon there are 5 players that are pretty much assured of there positions in the Bok backline if they’re fit:

    9 Francois Hougaard
    10
    11
    12 Francois Steyn
    13 Johann Sadie
    14 JP Pietersen
    15 Patrick Lambie

    Coach could move them around as he sees fit, but I’ll be shocked if any of them aren’t the first-choice.

  • Comment 19, posted at 13.12.11 09:32:33 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 17) :

    Plus Lambie isn’t that great with ball in hand. Not a case of getting him to have as many touches as possible.

    His strength is that he delivers at key moments & plays mistake-free. He’s a rock.

    I don’t see how Lambie could add any significant value as a 12. Frans & Jean are still better players in that position.

  • Comment 20, posted at 13.12.11 09:34:15 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • Lambie has to improve his goalkicking.it adds another strenght to his game.

  • Comment 21, posted at 13.12.11 09:39:01 by bergshark Reply

    bergshark
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 20) : Ok, have to agree with you about the 12 position, Steyn has made it his own, but for me Lambie is pretty special with ball in hand, if only for the fact he gets the backline away when at 10, and yes, I have to agree, his strength is in that he makes few mistakes.

    11 does seem a problem area for the Boks. Let’s assume Lambie stays at 15, then we have Jantjies and Goosen at 10, so candidates for 11?

  • Comment 22, posted at 13.12.11 09:40:12 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 22) :

    Before Jaque Fourie left I would’ve still considered Sadie as a winger also, but I think he’s got the 13 jersey now.

    The only two genuine candidates I think should be: Bryan Habana & Gio Aplon.

    Mvovo and Basson embarrassed themselves in Australasia. They’re not at the same level unfortunately. People criticized Habana for a lack of finishing, but even at his worst he’s still scoring them at a rate similar to Mvovo.

    I’d start with Habana, and if his form wanes any more then it already has, I’d swap him for Aplon.

  • Comment 23, posted at 13.12.11 09:44:08 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @bergshark (Comment 21) : Apparently he has done some work with Braam. Looking at his kicking he seems to have improved it and he doesn’t have such a draw on it anymore.

  • Comment 24, posted at 13.12.11 09:45:15 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 19) : How can u say Sadie is assured a spot when he hasnt even been called up to a training squad never mind got a Bok cap! With Frans Steyn being in France still his spot is also not assured. And who would be your 10 seeing as though you feel the flyhalf should be a goal kicker? I think no players should be assured a Bok spot…if they want to play they have to prove they are consistely better than every other person in that position.

  • Comment 25, posted at 13.12.11 09:45:43 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 22) :

    Then again if Juan de Jongh has a big S15, they could still play him at 13 and move Sadie to the wing.

    I’d prefer they stuck with Sadie at centre though as he’s likely to be our man for the next 6+ years.

  • Comment 26, posted at 13.12.11 09:47:30 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 23) : Don’t you think it would be worthwhile to work on Mvovo? He has a lot of potential. Maybe start Habana and have Aplon or Mvovo on the bench?

  • Comment 27, posted at 13.12.11 09:49:36 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 25) : Amen to that sentiment. The Bok jersey is a privelige, not a right.

  • Comment 28, posted at 13.12.11 09:50:41 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 25) :

    Relax hey!

    I wasn’t literally meaning assured of a spot, rather the ones that are pretty much going to be there unless they have a HUGE dip in form.

    Sadie will be there. Let’s not beat around the bush.

    At 10, at this stage, I’d select Elton Jantjies, as I’ve said.

    I’d probably even hand him the tests against England, so that Goosen can see through an entire S15 campaign and build up some confidence before being oozed in during the longer Tri Nations tournament.

  • Comment 29, posted at 13.12.11 09:51:32 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 27) :

    Mvovo has no skill my man.

    That’s not going to change.

  • Comment 30, posted at 13.12.11 09:52:41 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 26) : Hopefully JDJ proves his worth and makes good on his potential.

    I agree that Sadie is one for the future, but let’s work him into the system. The England team under Woodward did that the right way. Play the best man at the time. If he has a bad game give him a chance before just dropping him. In the mean time idfentify stars and bring them in off the bench or start them with 14 experienced guys around them to support them. We have a tendency to throw guys in at the deep end them lambast them when they don’t perform (see Mallett bogging all over Gaffie and van Hoesslin and ruining Gaffie forever).

  • Comment 31, posted at 13.12.11 09:53:53 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • Dunno about aplon : had a shocking 3N this year.

  • Comment 32, posted at 13.12.11 09:55:01 by bergshark Reply

    bergshark
     
  • @bergshark (Comment 32) :

    What!

    He played well. That’s not true.

  • Comment 33, posted at 13.12.11 09:56:43 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 15) : Australia were fortunate in that they had a number of kickers on the park. Having said that though, even though I am a firm believer in needing an established kicker in your team, Larkham was just so good, and added such an X-factor, that I’d probably have picked him even if it meant relying on his kicking boot…

    As for Lambie, personnaly I think he’s a much better kicker than he’s made out to be by many on this site. Certainly, he seems to be working on that spect of his game and improving at it, so I wouldn’t discard him as an option at 10 based on his kicking game just yet.

  • Comment 34, posted at 13.12.11 09:57:40 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling Song
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 31) :

    If he’s good enough, who cares.

    Habana was playing test rugby before he played Super Rugby.

  • Comment 35, posted at 13.12.11 09:58:21 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 30) : I hope someone works with him! The raw power of the man is frightening.

    Your views on Sithole for the future?

  • Comment 36, posted at 13.12.11 09:58:52 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 29) : I know what u meant but I get irritated that guys think that because the guy is a good school boy or has a few decent CC games that he should automatically be in the Bok starting lineup. There is a reason why Sadie was behind Fourie and De Jong at WP. And now that he is at the Bulls he has to force his way past Venter and Olivier at centre so think he will be on the wing. I agree that Jantjies should get another Bok shot BUT only if he has a good S15..same goes for Lambie. And dont forget Morne Steyn…if he ends up the top SA points scorer again how do you not select him? As for Mvovo not having skill…i know a lot of other players id rather mark than him! Just ask Wacko Jacko!

  • Comment 37, posted at 13.12.11 10:02:12 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 36) :

    Sithole overhyped.

    Ask yourself this, will he ever be a JP Pietersen?

    I don’t think so.

    And if he’s not near that level, he’ll be part-timer at Super Rugby level.

  • Comment 38, posted at 13.12.11 10:03:26 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • Not a shocking 3N?? 😐 guess you missed his play like he missed the tackles ..knocked a high ball or two 😐
    No,sorry but aplon didn’t impress in this past 3N

  • Comment 39, posted at 13.12.11 10:03:45 by bergshark Reply

    bergshark
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 37) :

    Sadie wasn’t behind Fourie or de Jongh… he was a youngster.

    And he played bloody well in the few chances he got, even sparking a come-from-behind win against the Blues.

    Let’s not forget about his very good form for WP before injuries.

    You’re mad if you think they’re going to play him on the wing. The Bulls first-choice backline, if no injuries, will be:

    9 Francois Hougaard
    10 Morne Steyn
    11 JJ Engelbrecht
    12 Wynand Olivier
    13 Johann Sadie
    14 Bjorn Basson
    15 Zane Kirchner

  • Comment 40, posted at 13.12.11 10:06:18 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • SheldonK: the big question is: do we have anyone capable of raising the skills levels of the players ..?

  • Comment 41, posted at 13.12.11 10:07:23 by bergshark Reply

    bergshark
     
  • @bergshark (Comment 39) :

    I remember a couple of missed high-balls, but nothing on Mvovo gathering the ball and then throwing a hospital to Aplon because he can’t kick.

    Mvovo useless. A decent runner, and that’s it. Not test level. Simple :mrgreen:

  • Comment 42, posted at 13.12.11 10:07:46 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 34) : I agree with you that Lambie can kick-i mean he hardly missed when playing for u21s. Myabe he just needs to focus on it more. The question is, if we placing a premium on goal kicking then surely we have pick Morne Steyn as he has been consistently the best over the last couple years. Will see how Jantjies and Goosen fair in 2012.

  • Comment 43, posted at 13.12.11 10:12:16 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 43) :

    Another question…

    Do you really want to burden him with the goalkicking responsibilities? Why not give it to a natural?

    I don’t care for the comparisons with Gaffie. If Johan Goosen has a relatively good S15, throw him in the deep end. He’ll swim.

  • Comment 44, posted at 13.12.11 10:16:40 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 40) : Sadie was behind Fourie and DeJong..just because he was a youngster doesnt make sense, he was still behind them in pecking order. Yes he had a good game or 2 but to be a BOK you have to be consistently outstanding at the top level. So the jury is still out on him and guys like Goosen, Venter etc. Venter and Olivier did very well together for the Bulls in the latter part of the CC so dont be surprised if they start.

  • Comment 45, posted at 13.12.11 10:21:33 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 25) : helluva point right there my man ,hendrikp is myopic about where lambie should play and his beliefs. He is like Cartmen ! πŸ™„ πŸ˜€ πŸ˜† πŸ˜†

    Lambie is the best Candidate at 10 becuase of his composure ,and make no mistake hendrikp Lambie is dangerous with ball in hand .You are clutching at straws now becuase you have a favourtie you want to have at 10 ,who has proved nothing yet.

  • Comment 46, posted at 13.12.11 10:22:01 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • In my mind I can’t picture the Springboks going ahead with Pat Lambie as their goalkicker.

    They might well discard Morne Steyn, but only if they find someone who can kick as well (or nearly).

    He might not be a terrible goalkicker, but he sure as heck ain’t a test match goalkicker either.

  • Comment 47, posted at 13.12.11 10:23:22 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 44) : Hang on a second..ur starting to sound like Strauli and handing out Bok caps like they coupons or something. Both M.Steyn and Janjies are good goal kickers and both are already capped Boks so why just give Goosen a cap? Lambie hardly missed a kick playing for the u21s just over a year ago and he didnt miss many for the Sharks in 2010 either so he definitely has the ability.

  • Comment 48, posted at 13.12.11 10:26:05 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • I wonder how many tests wilkinson missed out on due to injury? would be interesting to have an ” about x tests” stat to go on.

  • Comment 49, posted at 13.12.11 10:28:02 by bergshark Reply

    bergshark
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 45) :

    They won’t start (as a combination). If everyone is fit, Sadie will start at centre for the majority of the tournament. I guarantee it. Franna will be on the bench.

    And he’ll be the starting Bok centre, but I guess you’ll just have to wait for that one :mrgreen: I’ll save a big, I TOLD YOU SO.

    @Talent (Comment 46) :

    Clutching at straws? I’ve conceded that Lambie would make a good choice at 10… even saying if he plays 10 for the Sharks it would give us options at test level, but he adds a touch of class at fullback where Taute isn’t quite as balanced yet.

    As for Lambie being dangerous with ball in hand… I think most would agree with me that he’s better when he’s getting rid of the ball. To call him a dangerous runner… well I can’t help but laugh at that.

    Nice try though.

  • Comment 50, posted at 13.12.11 10:28:12 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 48) : Well what about the defence of Jantjies and Goosen ,Lambies kicking may not be 65+ bangers but I know who I would back to make a crucial tackle on the 5m line . Goosen is a prospect at this point in time ,nothing less nothing more . Lambie on the other hand at the age of 21 has a handfull of test matches .

  • Comment 51, posted at 13.12.11 10:30:06 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 48) :

    😯

    You guys are just being unreasonable now hey.

    Like I said, a good Super Rugby campaign. You’re turning it into something it’s not.

    In my mind, Goosen has shown himself to be good enough. He’s shown the sort of skills a coach can work with… forget about this step-up thing, he’s shown plenty. If he has a bad Super Rugby campaign, don’t select him, simple as that.

    He won’t though. Too many weapons.

  • Comment 52, posted at 13.12.11 10:31:10 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • like I wrote yesterday: lambie vs jantjes vs goosen ,I’d put lambie third re: goalkicking.

  • Comment 53, posted at 13.12.11 10:31:36 by bergshark Reply

    bergshark
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 50) : How many Bulls 13s have played for the Boks recently? Thats cos the ball never gets there…so yeh ill hold my breath. hehe
    Im glad you concede that Lambie is dangerous when getting rid of the ball as thats exactly what i want from a flyhalf! If he is going to run with it all the time we may as well play Beast and Jannie at centre…

  • Comment 54, posted at 13.12.11 10:31:51 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 50) : Haha well then if isnt a dangerous runner whats the point of keeping him at fullback?? Laugh away bud no one can hear you in lala land

  • Comment 55, posted at 13.12.11 10:31:56 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • “In my mind, Goosen has shown himself to be good enough. He’s shown the sort of skills a coach can work with… forget about this step-up thing, he’s shown plenty” ya in what ?? 5 currie cup games or something πŸ™„ πŸ™„ πŸ™„

  • Comment 56, posted at 13.12.11 10:33:04 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Talent (Comment 51) :

    Lambie made his Springbok debut at the age of 20 (he’d just turned 20) before even playing Super Rugby.

    Yet everyone else should wait a few seasons.

    Seems to me like a preference for Sharks players.

    Tell you what bud, we’ll talk when Super Rugby starts. Then all this step-up from CC talk will be done with when Sadie & Goosen are playing bloody good rugby.

  • Comment 57, posted at 13.12.11 10:35:06 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @Talent (Comment 56) : dont bring the frans steyn argument either it was at a different time and was close to the world cup ,it was a gamble and impulsive on jake whites part -could have backfired ,we dont want that with Goosen

  • Comment 58, posted at 13.12.11 10:35:06 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • Lambie not good with ball-in-hand..? Hmmm,maybe someone missed a certain game in 2010.. ?

  • Comment 59, posted at 13.12.11 10:35:08 by bergshark Reply

    bergshark
     
  • @bergshark (Comment 53) : So Lambie 3rd on goalkicking…what about passing, defense, combining with 9 and 12?

  • Comment 60, posted at 13.12.11 10:35:29 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @bergshark (Comment 59) :

    The final? I figured someone would bring that up…

    Making a break doesn’t mean you’re a good runner.

    You guys obviously got the blinkers on today! πŸ˜†

    Gotta head out for a couple of hours. If I’m no back, everyone have a great day :mrgreen:

  • Comment 61, posted at 13.12.11 10:37:43 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 57) : please reply to comment 55

    Lambie played an entire cc and half of super rugby campaign before being a bok ,so ya …and even then he wasnt called to be an incumbent by anyone -like you are saying sadie and goosen should be .

  • Comment 62, posted at 13.12.11 10:38:22 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • Lambie had played sr rugby in 2010_ think he made debut vs highlanders at 15.

  • Comment 63, posted at 13.12.11 10:38:52 by bergshark Reply

    bergshark
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 61) : Lambie is miles ahead of Goosen and Jantjies at this point in time.

  • Comment 64, posted at 13.12.11 10:40:38 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 57) : Yes Lambie was thrown in the deep end…but why must we do that with every promising player? There are established Bok players that must just move aside for the flavour of the month..not a chance. Johan Goosen met Willem Alberts during the CC Semi…what did he do after that?? Nothing! Yes there is the odd occasion to throw in a youngster…but not every year and every half decent player!

  • Comment 65, posted at 13.12.11 10:42:04 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • I DONT SEE why we give MUZI trouble for his views on lighties,same as hendrikp really.

  • Comment 66, posted at 13.12.11 10:44:55 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @bergshark (Comment 63) : that he did

  • Comment 67, posted at 13.12.11 10:45:33 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Talent (Comment 55) :

    He’s a solid fullback. He makes the right choices, joins the line well.

    He’s never going to be an Israel Dagg, or Kurtley Beale. But he brings other qualities, including a hell of a defensive game that would make him very valuable to have at the back.

    No point with the argument though. I tell you he’s not a great runner (with ball in hand), you tell me he is. Fact is he’s at his best making decisions and then moving the ball around…

    Some stats. Doesn’t tell the whole story, but might give you an idea.

    2011 SR
    ———–
    Aaron Cruden:
    Minutes Played – 774
    Runs – 62
    Tackles Bust – 31
    Offloads – 24
    Linebreaks – 7

    Patrick Lambie:
    Minutes Played – 1106
    Runs – 53
    Tackles Bust – 17
    Offloads – 4
    Linebreaks – 5

    Might give you a bit of an indication.

  • Comment 68, posted at 13.12.11 10:47:16 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @Talent (Comment 64) :

    At THIS point of time, yes, he’s ahead. But like I said, you need a goalkicker. You also need to remember there is an upcoming Super Rugby campaign.

    The thought of Pat Lambie not being the Springbok flyhalf seems to genuinely scare you guys hey :mrgreen:

    @SheldonK (Comment 65) :

    So when he’s a Sharks player it is okay?

    Goosen will be the best flyhalf we have. At that point, it doesn’t matter what age he is.

    Same goes for Sadie at centre.

    I really have to go now. Have a great day all.

  • Comment 69, posted at 13.12.11 10:50:11 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 68) : U cant compare Cruden and Lambie…they played for 2 sides with very different game plans. The Canes rely a lot on more on individuals and the Sharks play a much more structured, forward orientated game.

  • Comment 70, posted at 13.12.11 10:52:07 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 19) : johan sadie? Are you on drugs?

  • Comment 71, posted at 13.12.11 10:52:53 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 69) : No not just because its a Sharks player. It was just where Steyn and Lambie were playing. Janjies got a chance because he was on top form and i didnt mind that, but he should hav got more of a chance on that end of year tour same as Lambie. We dont need to throw a youngster in at flyhalf or centre for the Boks as we are covered there. We need to throw a youngster in at lock and possibly in the front row to add depth.

  • Comment 72, posted at 13.12.11 10:56:30 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 44) :

    Shall we put Sadie in the ‘first have a good Super 15 before penciling him down for the boks please’ category ?

    i agree the boks need to start building from game one . new team ect ect . But when we start we need guys who have sorta showed they can gang with the best of them .

    lets see what happens …

  • Comment 73, posted at 13.12.11 10:57:36 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @robdylan (Comment 71) : I dont think he is but Sadie may need to be to get in the Bok side ahead of Fourie!

  • Comment 74, posted at 13.12.11 10:58:03 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 71) :

    πŸ˜†

  • Comment 75, posted at 13.12.11 10:58:04 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 73) : I agree with u reg the Sadie point. And i do get the whole building a team thing…but why do we need to select guys next year that will remain in the team for 4yrs? Thats a very long time. I say pick the best players at the time without handing out Bok caps like candy.

  • Comment 76, posted at 13.12.11 11:00:31 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 69) : lets be honest boet you have an opinion and in your mind you are not wrong ,you cant even entertain other peoples ideas or opinions. Based on a small cameo in the cc ,really one game against the sharks and another where he made a huge kick(the sharks also got it handed to them by a bunch of 2nd and 3rd tier players from wp)so that was the kind of opposition he had in that game ,let me ask what he did in the cc quarters ,did he even play?

    As for Sadie; Stef T wrapped him up in that game in the rain ,from what ive read you saying here (something like centers should be 60 def and 40 offence ) that means Terblanche is the better center?? πŸ™„ πŸ™„ you just talk rubbish to substantiate your own beliefs .

  • Comment 77, posted at 13.12.11 11:02:56 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • im waiting to hear your opinion on who should be the next bok 8 ,before you start calling us all biased.

  • Comment 78, posted at 13.12.11 11:07:30 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 76) :

    im just saying we have 4 years and we shouldent waste them . i guy that is the best now but 30 years old might not be the best by 2014 . then we have a year before the world cup and we dont have anybody to play in that position .

    While if we decide now lets blood player x for the next 4 years and win the WC ect ect .

    the coach needs to make a choice. do we win 3 tri nations ( well champions cup rugby ) or do we win one championship and a world cup type of thing ..

    thats why im going on about not just picking a guy cause he played well at school boy level . we need somebody who showed us he can play well at SR level cause we will need to back this guy for a good few years .

  • Comment 79, posted at 13.12.11 11:09:33 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 78) :

    dont worry im hear to keep the balance πŸ˜€

  • Comment 80, posted at 13.12.11 11:11:08 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 80) : i changed it haha

  • Comment 81, posted at 13.12.11 11:15:43 by Talent Reply
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    Talent
     
  • @Zibbie (Comment 80) : πŸ˜€

  • Comment 82, posted at 13.12.11 11:16:00 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Zibbie (Comment 79) : and @Zibbie (Comment 80) : read your own post before you throw stones mate

  • Comment 83, posted at 13.12.11 11:17:14 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Zibbie (Comment 79) : Yeh i do get what u mean, but i think its a gradual process rather than a change everything and put the babies in approach. Yes we need to build guys but rather introduce them to international rugby alongside experienced top class players and then when they are settled take out the older guy and introduce a youngster with the guy that the older player brought through, if that makes sense?

  • Comment 84, posted at 13.12.11 11:24:32 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @Talent (Comment 83) :

    lol .

    what im hoping to avoid is the following . Cheetahs end up 12th on SR log . Goosen playes a few games then gets droped behind Sias .

    the first test against Engeland we pick Goosen @ 10 . Goosen gets flattened by Engalnd and the coach decided oh that was a bad idea .. lets go back to Morbne Steyn . Sam thing with Elton , Taute , Sadie and who ever else gets mentioned πŸ˜›

    im not saying certain players should and should not be picked . im saying we need to have a good look at what players are capable of before we pick them .

    We need to blood young players but we need to blood the right young players ..

  • Comment 85, posted at 13.12.11 11:24:32 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @SheldonK (Comment 84) :

    sure . lets say we give Sadie 2 seasons of SR . and we go with say JF for the Boks . but then we need 2 years to let sadie come . Having a guy come in a year before the wc is a bit of a gamble .

    like i said its a fine balance

  • Comment 86, posted at 13.12.11 11:27:08 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 64) : Last time I checked Jantjies had a CC and Lambie not. Score : Lambie 0 – 1 Jantjies 😈

  • Comment 87, posted at 13.12.11 11:28:37 by Original Pierre Reply
    Author
    Original Pierre
     
  • @Zibbie (Comment 85) : yeh 100% behind that thinking. Thats why im such a fan of inviting these youngsters to Bok training camps etc. Its the best way to see where their development is compared to the established Boks.

  • Comment 88, posted at 13.12.11 11:29:10 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @Original Pierre (Comment 87) : didnt Lambie win the CC in 2010? Yes Janjies has progressed well in 2011 but in 2012 he will be a marked man, same as Goosen so will see how they react then.

  • Comment 89, posted at 13.12.11 11:32:50 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @Original Pierre (Comment 87) : lambie started at the world cup and has been man of the match in a much harder cc campaign [email protected]Zibbie (Comment 85) : agreed

  • Comment 90, posted at 13.12.11 11:33:01 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Talent (Comment 90) : Oh don`t get me wrong I rate Lambie!

    It`s the guys around him that let him down.

  • Comment 91, posted at 13.12.11 11:43:11 by Original Pierre Reply
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    Original Pierre
     
  • @Original Pierre (Comment 91) : haha lets speak after the super rugby season .

  • Comment 92, posted at 13.12.11 11:49:38 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Talent (Comment 92) : Its a LONG season…will have to wait a while πŸ˜‰

  • Comment 93, posted at 13.12.11 12:05:50 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @Talent (Comment 90) :

    may i ask why 2010 was harder then 2011 … ?

  • Comment 94, posted at 13.12.11 12:12:27 by Zibbie Reply
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  • Dear Lord,

    Please speed up time and bring the rugby back faster!

    Your friend
    vanmartin

  • Comment 95, posted at 13.12.11 12:21:07 by vanmartin Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 94) : The standard in the 2011 CC was very poor, the number of missed tackles, dropped balls etc. It did pick up a bit in the end but judging overall the rugby was second rate. 2010 was only a bit better though.

  • Comment 96, posted at 13.12.11 12:21:42 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • Ok, seems everyone is on about the ideal team for the Boks.

    So using the following criteria, list me your Bok teams:

    1. The next WC is 4 years away, do we keep that in mind and go with youth or use current experienced players to develop up-and-coming youngsters?
    2. New Bok coach means new ideas? The gameplan may change, how will that affect selection going forward?
    3. Should overseas players be selected?

    I know Hendrikp rates Sadie, but does anyone else agree? I’m keen to see who everyone rates as their starting XV.

  • Comment 97, posted at 13.12.11 12:26:48 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 96) : the problem with that statement is that we will see 80 % of the same players again

  • Comment 98, posted at 13.12.11 12:27:14 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @StevieS (Comment 97) :

    this will be a very important SR season . i think if i had to pick a Bok team i would base it on that . Lots of youngsters have a chance to shine . let hope they grab the change with both hands

  • Comment 99, posted at 13.12.11 12:29:37 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 99) : Agreed. I mentioned earlier on this thread that I hope we blood our youngsters like the England team did under Woodward, with experienced hands and one or two youngsters at a time. I am just a bit worried about 11 and 13 at this stage.

    I still can’t believe the Bok coach will only be announced on the 27th of January!

  • Comment 100, posted at 13.12.11 12:35:51 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 100) : Hopefully this late announcement derails the Stormers preparations and ultimately results in them finishing last in the Conference 😈 :mrgreen:

  • Comment 101, posted at 13.12.11 12:38:09 by beet Reply
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  • @StevieS (Comment 100) :

    im worried about 12 positions :p but thats probably just me

  • Comment 102, posted at 13.12.11 12:41:56 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @beet (Comment 101) : Haha nice one :mrgreen:

    I get quite desperate with SARU sometimes (actually almost all the time πŸ˜• ) and I don’t know if they even know the term ‘planning for the future’!!!

  • Comment 103, posted at 13.12.11 12:42:07 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 97) : @Zibbie (Comment 98) : I think we losing the value of the Boks and test matches and are becoming just like the guys at Sanzar etc that are looking for fame and money. EVERY Bok test is important! I dont care if its against New Zealand or Namibia! The priority at all times should be on winning. F the world cup in 4yrs time. I want the Boks to win test matches! ANything can happen at a World Cup, and if we shite in the 4yrs between them then what have we achieved?? The Boks have to win all 3 tests against England and the home Rugby Championship games!! I dont care who plays as long as we win…losing is unacceptable! And that weak excuse of we blooding players is utter garbage! U dont blood players in the BOK side…they either good enough or they wait until they are the very best! Until we get that attitude to test matches we may as well not even rock up to the next All Black game.

  • Comment 104, posted at 13.12.11 12:42:57 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @Zibbie (Comment 102) : Hahaha πŸ˜›

  • Comment 105, posted at 13.12.11 12:43:13 by StevieS Reply
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    StevieS
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 95) : AMEN

  • Comment 106, posted at 13.12.11 12:48:11 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 97) : Personally, I think there’s to much focus on the World Cup. If the coaches focus on having the best available team at all times, it should mean you only need to tweak things in preparation for a World Cup, provided that your succession planning is maneged properly on a continuous basis.

    This does not mean that I advocate dropping established players after one poor game, but by the same token, there should be clear directives to the incumbents that if their standards of play drop, they will be given a reasonable (not years, as has been the case with Pierre Spies et al) amount of time to turn their game around, whereafter they will drop down the pecking order, and will then have to lift whoever takes over the jersey.

    Of course, above will only work well if the coaches have clear ideas of who their first, second and third choice players are, and ensure that the next tier of players get adequate exposure and developmental opportunities.

  • Comment 107, posted at 13.12.11 12:48:26 by Culling Song Reply
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    Culling Song
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 104) : I agree 100%!

    Finally someone else who gets it! My bro and I have said the same thing. I only made the point about the WC because it affects some peoples’ opinions.

    For my money we should have installed Stefan as Bok fullback after Percy retired. He was playing awesome rugby and could have taught the next best fullback a lot. So what if he wouldn’t have gone to the WC this year?! He was the best at that stage and should have played. You establish a winning culture and bring talent into that when they deserve it.

    We as South Africans should want to win EVERY game, not settle for a World Cup every 4 years! That’s why PDV shocked me when he said before he was appointed that we should ‘get used to losing’! Never!!!

  • Comment 108, posted at 13.12.11 12:49:46 by StevieS Reply
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    StevieS
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 107) : Agree with you (see comment 108 in reply to SheldonK).

    Spies has had years and has not proved himself consistently. I say consistently because he has the odd good game and is then flavour of the month, but take that against your Duane Vermeulen or Willem Alberts who performs consistently.

    We need a gameplan suited to our available talent, not talent suited to a set gameplan, if I’m making myself clear.

  • Comment 109, posted at 13.12.11 12:54:35 by StevieS Reply
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    StevieS
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 107) : See comment 31.

  • Comment 110, posted at 13.12.11 12:57:21 by StevieS Reply
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    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 97) : Okay what I would have ;

    1.Beast
    2.Bismark
    3.Jannie
    4.Flip VD
    5.Bekker
    6.Brussouw
    7.Alberts
    8.Burger (c)
    9.Pienaar- if not selceted due to playing overseas; Hougaard
    10.Lambie
    11.JDV-if at 12, Habana
    12.Frans Steyn- if not selceted due to playing overseas; JDV
    13.Jaque Fourie- if not selceted due to playing overseas; JDJ ,RE
    14.JPP
    15.Taute

    16.Strauss
    17.Oosthuizen
    18.Deysel(assuming smith-my fav sa player-best days behind him)
    19.Minnie
    20.Hougaard- if starting ;Mcleod
    21.JDJ/R Ebersohn(like the look of him)
    22.M Steyn 😐 lol

    Blood youngsters ,emphasis on breakdown and quick recycle of ball to backs . Direct rugby not unlike the sharks brand in 2010 cc.
    Deysel and Minnie will have a big impact on the breakdown when they come on.

    Players that are invited to training camps as prospects for future or fringe players;

    Props; Herbst ,(cheetahs monster lightie) ,Greyling
    Hookers; Chiliboi ,Maku & Burden
    Locks; Kruger ,Roodt ,Mostert
    Flankers; Louw ,Vermulen ,Coetzee ,Strauss
    8th men ;Kanko ,Spies and Johnson
    Sh; Vermaak, Mcleod (if not in 22)
    FH; Goosen ,Jantjies and Ebersohn
    Wings; Ods Ndungane ,JJE ,Aplon ,Mvovo
    Centers; RE(if not in 22) Sadie Olivier
    FB; Viljoen (let him play super rugy) Ondungane(would have a look)
    -Aplon

  • Comment 111, posted at 13.12.11 13:08:55 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • JDV is dangerous in broken play . Not so sure about my reserves but hey thats just who I would have on the bench

  • Comment 112, posted at 13.12.11 13:12:38 by Talent Reply
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    Talent
     
  • the team is flexible and players can be shifted if game plan needs to be changed during the game

  • Comment 113, posted at 13.12.11 13:14:38 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 104) : yes . but there is a flip side to this as well . i Agree . we have to go into each test to win it . but somewhere along the line your going to have to risk a youngster .

    Players learn from playing . so we need to find the right young players to take the step up .

    let me ask it this way and this is purely just an example : Jaque Fourie is 28 this year . He is currently our best 13 . at the next world cup he will be 32 . at what stage do you say , ok lets blood a youngster and not carry the old guys any longer ?

    its a balancing act. but you cant just do what divv did and hang on to the same players for 40 years . it does not work

  • Comment 114, posted at 13.12.11 13:20:07 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Talent (Comment 111) : Wow! You’ve given this A LOT of thought πŸ™‚ I like the look of your team. My views as follows:

    4. Mostert if available, otherwise what about Juandre Kruger? He could play the enforcer role as well.

    7/8. I like you have Schalk there as an 8. What about switching the 2, with Schalk freed up to batter it up? But ja, it could work either way.

    11. Not sure about Habana anymore, but nobody exactly sticking their hands up at the moment. I wouldn’t play JDV there.

    18. Not Deysel here, we need a specialist lock.

    19. Minnie or Deysel, but both great players. Minnie especially is one for the future. I am worried about Deysel, he looks to have lost pace after his knee injury, but I hope he has an awesome 2012.

    21. Ebersohn can come through, I think JDJ will start at 13 as Fourie will, I fear, be lost to the Boks in Japan.

    22. Noooo! Jantjies instead πŸ˜†

  • Comment 115, posted at 13.12.11 13:21:04 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @Talent (Comment 111) :

    thats a godo team . i could go with that . just Habbana .. he should not be with the Boks any longer ..

  • Comment 116, posted at 13.12.11 13:22:38 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @Zibbie (Comment 114) : Blood them in. You start with the experienced hand, youngster off the bench. Eventually they switch. Nothing to say you can’t have the seasoned veteran coming off the bench. You don’t just chuck him out.

  • Comment 117, posted at 13.12.11 13:23:38 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 117) :

    true but some guys should not have been at the world cup .

    Habbana jumps right to mind there πŸ˜›

  • Comment 118, posted at 13.12.11 13:26:13 by Zibbie Reply
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  • @StevieS (Comment 115) : 4; ye Msotert is awesome and I hope he comes home

    7/8 I like Burger at 8 but they could also swop on attack and defence and depending who they play.

    11. Nah I think JDV could still be a good wing

    18. Why ? Why not have an extra loosie ,if anything the bench is a place for versatile players not specialists (Minnie being the only one)

    19. I would stick with Deysel in that case becuase he has the fetcher element to his game but can also carry

    21. Agreed

    22. That was an act of diplomacy to please Blue Bulls fans πŸ™„

  • Comment 119, posted at 13.12.11 13:27:12 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Zibbie (Comment 118) : I agree. I read a while back that he stopped doing the eye exercises Sheryll Calder gave them right after 2007 WC, is it just a coincidence that his form dropped soon thereafter? I don’t think so!

    We could have had Bismarck start and John off the bench. John was still an international quality hooker, make no mistake.

  • Comment 120, posted at 13.12.11 13:29:03 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @Talent (Comment 119) : and my subs re forwards;

    1. Coenie(50 min)
    2. Strauss(50 min)
    3. JDP 80 min man πŸ˜›
    4. Alberts (60)
    5. Bekker
    6. Brussouw
    7. Minnie(60)
    8. Deysel(65)

    Or something like that- or whatever suits the game at hand

  • Comment 121, posted at 13.12.11 13:33:20 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Talent (Comment 119) : Hahaha act of diplomacy πŸ˜†

    Minnie is also a big lad, so can carry the ball up. Like I said, I like both of them, and yes, Deysel has a good fetcher element to him. Just the knee injury and loss of speed has me worried.

    The lock on the bench, well, you can get away with a loosie there in Super XV and CC, but at test level I’d prefer a specialist lock. You need the size to back up your prop come scrum time and at lineouts. Maybe just my preference. There’s an argument for the extra loosie.

  • Comment 122, posted at 13.12.11 13:33:23 by StevieS Reply
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    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 122) : I just think subs should add a pace to the game ,like lifting the tempo -with that in mind would you rather have a lock or loosie?

  • Comment 123, posted at 13.12.11 13:35:38 by Talent Reply
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    Talent
     
  • @Talent (Comment 121) : Good to see you’ve planned your subs as well (fill in a thumbs up here πŸ™‚ ).

  • Comment 124, posted at 13.12.11 13:36:04 by StevieS Reply
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    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 124) : haha hendrikp will have a fit if he see the side I put together πŸ˜† πŸ˜† but thanks man ,congratz on your lonely star ! cheers ,time for gym

  • Comment 125, posted at 13.12.11 13:38:19 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Talent (Comment 123) : Ok, they must lift the pace of the game, but what about someone who runs around/over guys with a bit of pace, like Horwill did against the Baabaas, or like Danie did so well this year.

    I definitely hear what you’re saying, but it depends on the players you have at your disposal.

    For example, I wouldn’t bring Matfield on as an impact player, but Bakkies could kill a few tired players :mrgreen:

  • Comment 126, posted at 13.12.11 13:38:58 by StevieS Reply
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    StevieS
     
  • @Talent (Comment 125) : Thanks, proud to have it.

    How did I earn it?

  • Comment 127, posted at 13.12.11 13:39:53 by StevieS Reply
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    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 127) : just commenting
    @StevieS (Comment 126) : ya i hear you man ,cheers

  • Comment 128, posted at 13.12.11 13:41:55 by Talent Reply
    Author
    Talent
     
  • @Talent (Comment 125) :

    No fit. You’re entitled to your opinion bud. I’m guessing I’m entitled to say where I differ, for arguments sake? :mrgreen:

    Firstly I don’t believe we should encourage picking overseas players anymore. Done with that, especially after Jaque Fourie packed his bags. The players who stay in SA should be rewarded for staying, and SARU needs to let the overseas players know straight away.

    Now down to your selections that I differ with:
    – I like your forward pack, a lot, and that is exactly what I’d go with at this stage if Juan Smith wasn’t fit (or in form).
    – In the backs I’m also a big fan of Ruan Pienaar, and if he showed any intention of returning to SA I’d say he should be our starting halfback, but there are too many issues with getting these guys in for training camps & so forth, that I’m thinking Hougaard is the right guy to start.
    – JdV isn’t a winger anymore. You can’t play this supposed expansive game we’re going to hopefully embrace with him out there. I know Habs isn’t in the form of his life, but he’s still the best we’ve got.
    – If Lambie was the flyhalf of choice, I’d also select Taute at the back, but I’m still not convinced that he’s a smart enough player at the back. Too much attack, too little precision.
    – I guarantee that by the end of the Super 15, you’ll be all over Johann Sadie. Don’t say I didn’t tell you so. No Jaque Fourie, who’s chosen to play against amateurs, which means he’s no longer playing at a level which makes him suitable for inclusion.

    And yes, the players you want to include in the training camps makes me want to scratch my eyes out.

    Juandre Kruger is another one that you will be pleasantly surprised with, so you won’t have a choice but to include him in your ‘Bok Barometer’ come the incoming tours.

  • Comment 129, posted at 13.12.11 14:01:22 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • FYI, I’d be looking at something close to:

    1 Beast Mtawarira
    2 Bismarck du Plessis
    3 Jannie du Plessis
    4 Flip van der Merwe
    5 Andries Bekker
    6 Heinrich Brussow
    7 Juan Smith (c) / Willem Alberts
    8 Schalk Burger
    9 Francois Hougaard
    10 Johan Goosen / Elton Jantjies / Patrick Lambie
    11 Bryan Habana / Gio Aplon
    12 Francois Steyn
    13 Johann Sadie
    14 JP Pietersen
    15 Patrick Lambie (or Jaco Taute)

    16 Chiliboy Ralepelle
    17 Coenie Oosthuizen
    18 CJ van der Linde
    19 Juandre Kruger
    20 Willem Alberts / Ashley Johnson
    21 Ruan Pienaar
    22 Juan de Jongh and/or Jean de Villiers
    *Would include both Juan & Jean on bench if going for 4-3 & drop CJ van der Linde with Coenie as impact player.

  • Comment 130, posted at 13.12.11 14:13:34 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 129) : I’d also pick Juan if he was fit.

    Ideal loose trio is Brussouw, Smith and Alberts or Schalk at 8.

    Not sure about Taute at 15. He sometimes goes walkabout on defence. What about doing what they did with Larkham and playing Goosen at fullback? Could blood him in slowly with less pressure. Just a thought. We’ll first see how he does during the S15.

    Juandre Kruger will shine during the S15! Surprised by his lack of game time at the Bulls during the S15, even if they had Rossouw, Bakkies and Matfield. For me he is better than Flip.

  • Comment 131, posted at 13.12.11 14:15:57 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @ Hendrikp: Nice team, but Flip has lost a lot of form! He needs to reprove himself.

  • Comment 132, posted at 13.12.11 14:17:43 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • Anyway, SA U20 squad for the training camp in January has been announced. Can be found on Sarugby website I believe.

    Some notes I’ve taken on the squad:
    – Ruan Venter has been injured, and still is I believe.
    – Craig Barry & William Small-Smith have now been released from SA sevens duty, finally :mrgreen:
    – Tshotsho Mbovane looks like he’s still part of the plans, but might be injured I’m guessing. No idea but he’s mentioned as one who can’t make it to camp unfortunately.

    Players who appear to be dropped are:
    Props: Hencus van Wyk & Henri Boshoff
    Hookers: Wian Fourie
    Locks: Marvin Orie & Schalk van Heerden
    Loosies: Daniel Jordaan, Hendrik Venter & Guy Alexander
    Scrumhalves: Francois Grobler
    Flyhalves: N/A
    Centres: Andile Jho, Christian Rust, Dries Swanepoel & Patrick Howard
    Wingers: Maputha Dholo, Richard Gorrah & Siyabonga Tom
    Fullbacks: Juan Nel & Niel Marais

    And new to the squad after missing out in Round 2 are:
    Hookers: Jason Thomas & Mihlali Mpafi
    Lock: Jacques du Plessis
    Fullback: David Schmidt

  • Comment 133, posted at 13.12.11 14:20:45 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • I have to agree with HendrikP…Sadie is a special talent and I believe he will light up the Super 15. He is one of the most exciting backline players to emerge in SA for ages and his profile will be a lot bigger in 6 months time!

    Goosen is another mega talent and can’t wait to see how his game develops over the course of the Super 15.

    The future is looking positive with backline talents like: Lambie, Francois Hougie, Jantjes, Goosen, Sadie, JDJ, Taute etc.
    My concern over Taute is still his defence…I saw him miss a few crucial tackles in the U20 WC and some for the Lions. Needs to improve on that score!

  • Comment 134, posted at 13.12.11 14:20:48 by Villie Reply
    Competition Winner
    Villie
     
  • Let’s hope we select a Bok coach who makes the most of these talented backline players and actually plays to their strengths!

  • Comment 135, posted at 13.12.11 14:22:51 by Villie Reply
    Competition Winner
    Villie
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 132) :

    I’m not the biggest fan of Flip either, but I do think he’s a bloody good player when he’s performing.

    I don’t see how anyone else besides Rynhardt Elstadt can challenge him for the jersey to be honest.

    It’d probably depend on which players are available before I look at Goosen at 15. Probably couldn’t justify playing him there ahead of any of Lambie, Taute or Aplon… I think he’ll eventually make a big enough impression to force his way in, even if that isn’t in 2012.

    By what I’ve heard about his work ethic – getting up at 5am to practice his goal-kicking (and Bloem is fricking cold, trust me)… he’s not the type to be satisfied with ‘almost’.

  • Comment 136, posted at 13.12.11 14:25:55 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @Villie (Comment 135) : Ja, we can but hope. I’m getting despondent over the whole coach issue!

    We’re announcing the coach very late, and they’ve only confirmed PDV as a candidate so far 😯

  • Comment 137, posted at 13.12.11 14:26:33 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 136) : Agree re: No. 4. Sharks lost 2 stars in Mostert and Sykes. Both had the mongrel needed to challenge Flip.

    Goosen looks a star, but he must prove himself on the S15 stage first.

  • Comment 138, posted at 13.12.11 14:29:18 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 130) :

    Good team Hendrik. Van Der Merwe might be displaced by Rynhardt Elstadt or Hendrik Roodt (if he establishes himself at the Lions). Hougaard as well, i am not sure about him at SA 9, the Bok gameplan will have to change majorly to more of a running game if he is. I think Pienaar gives an all round game and would maybe start him depending on new Bok coach and their ideas. As for the rest of the team, pretty much what i would have said. Burger, particularly is an 8th man, please will the SA team leave him there!

    As for the Junior Boks, im not sure how final that squad is. I think Theron is keeping it open, that is probably more or less the core of the team, but if a player is having an amazing Vodacom Cup then im sure he would put him in. I think Maphuta Dolo is training with the Cheetahs team at the moment and might explain why he is not there.
    Backline will probably look like thid

    15 Craig Barry
    14 Tshotsho Mbovane
    13 William Small Smith
    12 Paul Jordaan
    11 Jan Serfontein
    10 Johan Goosen
    9 Rudi van Rooyen/Kevin Luiters

  • Comment 139, posted at 13.12.11 14:30:23 by Pat Reply

     
  • @StevieS (Comment 138) :

    Cant for the life of me understand why Sykes left. He could only have gone for the bucks. By the time he hits Irish qualification he will be 30, and he is not even in the Leinster team, as they play Leo Cullen who is captain.

  • Comment 140, posted at 13.12.11 14:32:22 by Pat Reply

     
  • @hendrikp

    How about Alberts as an option at 4. This gives us a more effective ball carrier than Flip and he showed during the WC that he can do a job as a lock.

    I’m also not so keen on your idea of playing Francois Hougaard as a 9. He was poor during his run in that position for the Boks as his pass isn’t good enough but he’s amazing as a wing and he’d be the perfect replacement for Habana. Hougaard creates something everytime he touches the ball on the wing and he looks for work.

    Ruan Pienaar, Sarel Pretorius or Jano Vermaak would be my 9 going forward. Good passing and creative on attack.

  • Comment 141, posted at 13.12.11 14:35:46 by ChrisS Reply
    Author
    ChrisS
     
  • @Pat (Comment 140) : Ja, it’s a mystery! He was just breaking into the Bok team as well.

    I was gutted when Mostert followed soon after him.

    I’m rating Ross Skeate at the moment. He has really put his hand up for higher honours.

  • Comment 142, posted at 13.12.11 14:36:04 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @Pat

    Agree with you about Hougaard. His pass dips downwards and backwards which makes it hard for the flyhalf to catch!

  • Comment 143, posted at 13.12.11 14:38:32 by ChrisS Reply
    Author
    ChrisS
     
  • @Pat (Comment 140) :

    Could be the money… could be wanting to experience life in another country. I can’t imagine his value would’ve been very high.

    The biggest loss was Gerhard who I think was slightly better then Sykes anyway. Sad thing for him is his value would’ve increased a lot as well if he’d left after becoming a Springbok.

    Don’t think Gerhard was all that much better then the other 4-locks we have to be chosen as an overseas player. A real shame.

  • Comment 144, posted at 13.12.11 14:40:15 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @ChrisS (Comment 141) :

    Don’t need more ball-carriers.

    What we need at 4 is a workhorse mauling type. Runs excellent support lines, cleaning out and so forth.

    I just don’t see Alberts as a 4-lock hey. Can’t imagine he’s been used much as a jumper at the front of the line-out either.

    It’s got to be between the guys who are, or will actually be playing there, meaning…

    Flip van der Merwe – Bulls
    Rynhardt Elstadt – Stormers

    And then,
    Francois Uys – Cheetahs – Not good enough.
    Wikus van Heerden – Lions – Not a test lock.
    Whoever the Sharks play there??

    I think the dark horse for the 4 jersey could be Michael Rhodes.

  • Comment 145, posted at 13.12.11 14:44:13 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 145) :

    In fact I’d be begging John Mitchell to turn him into a lock. Him and Wikus pretty much perform each others roles anyway in broken play…

  • Comment 146, posted at 13.12.11 14:46:09 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 142) : Come on guys…let’s face it, Sykes is never Bok class!

  • Comment 147, posted at 13.12.11 14:48:42 by Villie Reply
    Competition Winner
    Villie
     
  • @Pat (Comment 139) :

    I think Dholo has been excluded besides him training with the Cheetahs. Wasn’t on the list who were because of provincial duties, though I guess somebody could’ve gotten it wrong.

  • Comment 148, posted at 13.12.11 14:49:50 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 145) : I’d like to see the Sharks convert him into a lock. Rather him there than Deysel and I think Alberts can do the hard work and clearing out that you spoke of.

    Flip doesn’t seem to do much. I like Elstadt and Rhodes and I think Juandre Kruger, from the Bulls, could do the job as well as being very good come lineout time.

  • Comment 149, posted at 13.12.11 14:50:10 by ChrisS Reply
    Author
    ChrisS
     
  • @ChrisS (Comment 149) :

    Think you’re being a bit harsh on Flip. The job of your 4-lock is never going to be that of a primary ball-carrier.

    Alberts would also be wasted there.

    I mentioned the other day if the Sharks don’t see Jandre Marais as a solution at 4, they should try nab Ruan Venter.

  • Comment 150, posted at 13.12.11 14:58:08 by hendrikp Reply

    hendrikp
     
  • @hendrikp (Comment 150) : I don’t want him as a primary ball-carrier but he has to be able to carry, hit rucks and intimidate the opposition. I’d love Flip to prove me wrong as I was impressed with him last year but he’s gone quiet since then.

    Brad Thorn is what a number 4 should be. Carries well, hits rucks and is the team “enforcer”.

    I think that the Sharks should definitely use Jandre Marais but you need 2 players in each position and I think Alberts could work there.

    The Sharks main problem, as highlighted by the final against the Lions, was the lack of a fetcher. Minnie and Wickus slaughtered us. The Sharks moved away from keeping the ball alive and off-loading in the tackle to going to ground and, subsequently, getting turned over.

  • Comment 151, posted at 13.12.11 15:11:41 by ChrisS Reply
    Author
    ChrisS
     
  • @ChrisS (Comment 143) : Welcome to the site. Glad you

  • Comment 152, posted at 13.12.11 15:13:02 by KSA Shark Β© Reply

    KSA Shark Β©
     
  • @KSA Shark Β© (Comment 152) : Thanks very much. Very cool site and glad the guys chat rugby and don’t slate each other.

  • Comment 153, posted at 13.12.11 15:19:08 by ChrisS Reply
    Author
    ChrisS
     
  • @ChrisS (Comment 151) : keegan is not a fetcher, he is worse than stegmann! πŸ˜†

  • Comment 154, posted at 13.12.11 15:20:43 by Megatron Reply

    Megatron
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 154) : Keegan isn’t renowned as a fetcher, he’s actually more suited to being a “link” as an eigth-man.

    The Sharks need another Warren Britz. Somebody there purely to pilfer.

  • Comment 155, posted at 13.12.11 15:25:49 by ChrisS Reply
    Author
    ChrisS
     
  • @ChrisS (Comment 141) : Hey Chris.

    Welcome to the site. Good to see you got your registration sorted.

  • Comment 156, posted at 13.12.11 15:29:11 by KSA Shark Β© Reply

    KSA Shark Β©
     
  • @KSA Shark Β© (Comment 152) : That wasn’t supposed to have been posted. 😳 πŸ™‚

  • Comment 157, posted at 13.12.11 15:31:01 by KSA Shark Β© Reply

    KSA Shark Β©
     
  • @ChrisS (Comment 153) : yeah that’s something that we all enjoy.

  • Comment 158, posted at 13.12.11 15:31:52 by KSA Shark Β© Reply

    KSA Shark Β©
     
  • @KSA Shark Β© (Comment 156) : Thanks.

  • Comment 159, posted at 13.12.11 15:34:14 by ChrisS Reply
    Author
    ChrisS
     
  • @KSA Shark Β© (Comment 157) : new bulls jersey πŸ˜†

    http://www.ruggaworld.com/2011/12/13/bulls-announce-puma-as-new-sponsors/

    looks rubbish

  • Comment 160, posted at 13.12.11 15:37:01 by Megatron Reply

    Megatron
     
  • @ChrisS (Comment 153) : Thats not entirely true, sometimes we will slate Megatron :mrgreen:

  • Comment 161, posted at 13.12.11 15:45:15 by Clayton(PJLD) Reply
    Administrator
    Clayton(PJLD)
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 160) : Um…not what I would have chosen 😯

  • Comment 162, posted at 13.12.11 15:48:23 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @Clayton(PJLD) (Comment 161) : and you all FAIL miserably! πŸ˜† 😈

  • Comment 163, posted at 13.12.11 15:53:40 by Megatron Reply

    Megatron
     
  • @Megatron (Comment 16:) πŸ˜† fail shmail

  • Comment 164, posted at 13.12.11 15:57:09 by Clayton(PJLD) Reply
    Administrator
    Clayton(PJLD)
     

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