“That first Bulls try – and the TMO decision for the try that Odwa set up, were critical. They were game changers, in a much bigger sense than I think we can understand”.
A clearly frustrated, disappointed and emotional Gary Gold faced a media scrum at Loftus on Saturday night, one intent on getting him to say something about the performances of referee Jaco van Heerden and TMO Johann Greeff, both of which left a lot to be desired from a Sharks point of view.
“We’ve got a directive [at the Sharks] that, if we’re unbelievably disappointed in a referee and believe that his performance was sub-standard, we’re not entitled to make a comment about it in public, so I won’t make a comment about [the performance],” quipped Gold, a rather clever way of saying what he had to say without really saying it.
“I will say that we need some clarity and consistency of ‘not clear and obvious’ for the forward pass, yet when Odwa goes up for a contestable kick, how is that clear and obvious? We just need some consistency. I’m not here to talk about anybody’s decisions, we just want consistency – that’s all I’m asking,” he added.
Gold was referring to two unrelated incidents in the match, both involving the TMO, and both of which went in the home side’s favour despite the available evidence hardly supporting the respective verdicts. In the first case, a try to Francois Hougaard was allowed despite TV footage appearing to show a rather clear forward pass. Greeff, who is a senior office bearer in the Blue Bulls Refereeing Union, ruled there was a lack of “clear and obvious” intent to pass the ball forward on the part of Jesse Kriel. Benefit of the doubt, in other words, favoured the attacking team even though the evidence was inconclusive at best, but damning under most neutral lenses.
Later in the game, Odwa Ndungane was adjudged to have knocked-on a ball that immediately after went to SP Marais to score the try that looked set to turn the match. Again, there was no clear and obvious evidence from the footage that said knock had indeed taken place, yet in this case, Greeff seemed to throw away his previous precedent and rather decided that the benefit of the doubt should go to the defending team.
You can understand why Gold was miffed – and that’s to say nothing about the numerous on-field blunders that blighted van Heerden’s own 80 minutes.
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Sorry, but Odwa’s looked like a knock to me.
There was a third one that gave them the bonus point, “pushed back by a sharks player then lost forward” is still a knock on…..
Ok first things firs, points where I think we where poor in:
Reinachs kicking out off hand, he is kicking the ball at too low of an angle, trying to get more distance, yet it then flies low enough for the charge down. Our defense around the fringes is shocking! Also, our defending of our own rucks is laughable at best. Most of the times only one guy goes in to clear/protect the ball, this would work if the ball get cleared much faster, but this almost never happens fast enough.
Now on to the ref, NEVER NEVER NEVER should a home town ref be allowed to officiate a match in his hometown! Especially a rookie ref! A clear forward pass, cleaning players beyond the ruck, pulling down the jumper, continuously closing the gap in the lineout…this was just some of the things the ref thought nothing of and allowed the Bulls to do. Then when it came to the Sharks, how many off sides did he blow against us? Then poor Marcell was penalized so much for legitimate contesting for the ball that he didn’t know what to do any more. Also, I might be mistaken, but I thought I saw the Bulls have a truck-and-trailer with one of their drives( a law which I haven’t seen blown up for in a while).
@Spirit of Rugby (Comment 1) : was the knock more or less obvious than the forward pass?
I’m not saying that both decision should have gone the Sharks’ way (and neither is GG). Simply that one of them should have.
If the decision re Kriel’s pass had been right (rather than glaringly wrong) we wouldn’t even be talking about the Odwa one.
@Seth101 (Comment 2) : That was a howler (I might have howled into my drink as well 😆 )!!!
@Seth101 (Comment 2) : I was ok with that one. I didn’t see Serfontein ever lose contact with the ball.
Haven’t managed to download the game though. I will post a full analysis of all the incidents tomorrow, once I’ve had the same benefit that Greeff had 🙂
@robdylan (Comment 4) : Both were forward/knocked-on no doubt. The last one from Serfontein was exactly the same scenario as the disallowed try by Marcel against the Cheetahs.
It was hard to watch.
@Pokkel (Comment 7) : Not hard, sickening 😐
YAY! 4 STARS!!!Thanks Rob
The TMO 21 point swing was heartbreaking, especially because of the inconsistency. If they gave the Odwa one, I would have felt better seeing as the guy was at least consistent.
And since when does the sharks do drop goals? Weirdest call I’ve seen in a long time.
@PTAShark (Comment 10) : “The TMO 21 point swing” 😆 Priceless!!!
@Pokkel (Comment 7) : I need to look again.
I think the rather obvious ‘elephant in the room’ question is why we moved away from neutral refereeing in the first place and have a situation where a Blue Bulls ref is the TMO for a Blue Bulls game?
@The Great Couch Shark (Comment 13) : excellent point
@robdylan (Comment 4) : That is the point…
@robdylan (Comment 6) : I agree…fyndraai posted a clarification on the other thread of this rule made by the IRB…that explains it clearly and on that basis I think it was a try…
@The Great Couch Shark (Comment 13) : @robdylan (Comment 14) : This point was exhaustively discussed on the previous thread. I very much agree with you. I don’t say these guys cheat…there is no evidence for that…I do say they are at least subconsciously predisposed to favoir “their” team in the 50-50…or even the 60-40…or even the 80-20 ( 😆 ) calls…
@robdylan (Comment 6) : Where do you download it from? I would also like to watch it again.
@Ben (Comment 18) : I checked out this morning…the full games is on youtube…
Reading this article just got me fuming all over again. 🙄 😈 🙄
@pastorshark (Comment 19) : Thanks.
I,too,was amazed at reffing by all on Saturday & have a couple of points.
1)Is this a case of the judges decision is final?
2) Has anyone actually taken on the decisions after the game & submitted to Ref Board or is that not allowed.
3)Is there no right of appeal?
Just asking! 👿 😆 ❓
@robdylan (Comment 12) : Rob for me of course the forward pass try should not have been allowed, on the replay it clearly shows no backward flick movement from Kriels hands to show a backward pass, he also was crabbing across the field so he did not have enough momentum to cause the ball to float forwards out of the hands, it was a straight forward pass.
As for SP’s try, Odwa did knock on, so no problem there.
The Bulls last try was no try, it is not about a knock-on, they should never have gotten to score as it should have been a penalty to the Sharks for the Bulls not retreat from the Hougaard up and under, Lambie should have been kicking for goal!!!
@markm (Comment 22) : Is there a sniper to send to the Ref and TMO side of the country??
😆
@sharks_lover (Comment 23) : Could’ve, would’ve, should’ve. 😈
Well said by Gold, I think. If I had to talk after the game, it would have looked much different.
@Letgo (Comment 26) :
😆 me too, Bulls supporters as well as my son in law that is a huge Bulls supporter said the ref nailed us. anyhow the score wont change so best just move on, does still leave a sour taste in the mouth. 👿
@Ben (Comment 25) : Go to the naughty corner 👿
@Letgo (Comment 26) : I had to stop talking on here fo 24 hours for fear of saying something I would regret! 😆
@pastorshark (Comment 29) : 😆
Team I would like to see vs Stormers, also not sure about new injuries etc, only Deysel 🙄
15 Odwa
14 Wilson
13 JpP
12 Steyn
11 Mvovo
10 Lambie
09 Reinach
08 Bothma
07 Alberts
06 Marcell
05 PSDT
04 Botha or Oupa
03 Jannie
02 Bismark
01 Thomas
16 Cooper
17 Adriaanse
18 Chadwick
19 Kanko
20 Tera as Deysel I think has a bad ankle injury
21 Ungerer
22 Fred
23 Heimer/Esterhuizen
@markm (Comment 22) : When Nick Mallet was the main guy at the Stormers he complied a dvd that he submitted to either SARU or the SA Refs Associateion (The Brotherhood) highlighting how the Stormers had been nailed by a ref.
I am going for a more experienced lineup where possible, SP I have not put down and maybe should have him there, he has gotten better, maybe just for a rest 😈
If totally fit I would move ALberts to lock late in the game and thus the extra loose forward I have on the bench.
If not then of course we should drop one and bench another lock
@sharks_lover (Comment 33) : SP played well on Saturday…
@Ben (Comment 25) : 😆 Hindsight — understanding the nature of an event after it has happened; “hindsight is always better than foresight” 😀 👿 😈 We had the benefit of TMO as our hindsight yet we can’t understand the nature of the decision of the event after it happened. Go figure. 😮
@pastorshark (Comment 35) : Yes he did, I said so on the other thread, he had his best match in a long time.
If the powers that be in rugby really want to do whats best for the game itself in the long run, there has to be some form of accountability for the poor performances of officials (refs and TMO’s) such as was clearly the case in the Bulls sharks game.
If there is no such accountability, or even ability for people (such as coaches and players) to have there say, I’m afraid the game itself will loose credibility (or let me say, even more credibility).
It cannot be that only players and/or coaches are punished for poor performances but everyone else involved in ensuring that there is a fair contest on the day.
@markm (Comment 36) : Ya well no fine
@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 32) : And what was the outcome? ❓
…. gets away with it and keeps their jobs regardless
@markm (Comment 40) : We all know those type of comments get swept under the carpet very quickly. 🙄
Even the ref had a different set of rules at the rucks and mauls on for the Sharks than for the Bulls. 😕
@markm (Comment 40) : No idea, that was not shared with us.
I think the best we can do for now is to forget what lies behind us and press toward what is in front of us.Got a good feeling about Saturday.The sharks are going to be primed for this one.I knew we were going to loose to the bulls, just didn’t think it would be because of the ref.Deysel isn’t such a big loss.His not a game changer or momentum swinger.Now Renaldo Botmha is something different.This guy is class.Heyneke is probably very disappointed that he’s not eligible to play for the boks.
@Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 44) : There has to be accountability!
A neutral ref is a must!
@sharks_lover (Comment 31) : If Sbura is be available to play this week, I would have him at 13 and JPP at 14.
@Bokhoring (Comment 47) : Odwa needs to start too – he has been our form outside back so far. SP also had a pretty good game overall (bar one up and under aimed at an area with about 7 Bulls waiting for the ball)
@Bokhoring (Comment 48) : Agree SP was much better on Saturday.Glad Frans is back for Newlands!!!
@markm (Comment 36) : 😆
@sharks_lover (Comment 28) : On my way there now. Taking the useless officials with me, off course! 😉
did anyone see Wilson get a cap on Saturday? He seems to think he did, but I didn’t see it
@Bokhoring (Comment 47) : I agree with you.
@robdylan (Comment 52) : Didn’t see him coming on either.
@Bokhoring (Comment 48) : Yes. Sithole 13, Ndungane 14 would make me happy too.
Don’t fret, Sharks will beat the Stormers this weekend
@Ben (Comment 51) : 😆
@robdylan (Comment 52) : NOt sure he came on Rob.
@Bokhoring (Comment 48) : Odwa for me had a superb match, and I agree if Sbura can play, as I said I am not sure about injuries so of course my team is a bit of if’s and but’s
Im too scared to ask….who’s the ref this weekend??
@Morné (Comment 56) :
hello good Sir Morne, hope you are well boet? 😀
@Ice (Comment 58) : A Local Stormer ref
😆
@Morné (Comment 56) : 😀
This looks refreshing
15-SP
14-ODWA
13-SBURA
12-FRANS
11-JP
10-PAT
9-COBUS
@robdylan (Comment 52) : I didnt see him but Im sure they had his name up as coming on with a few minutes to go.
He should know if he actually got onto the field.
The form Odwa was showing on Saturday I would seriously play him at 15, his workrate was huge and pretty solid under the high ball, so of course I wouldn’t like to see him left out the team.
@Morné (Comment 56) : Now that’s the Morné we love.. Good Morné.
@tigershark (Comment 62) : No Mvovo?? he has done nothing wrong, Saturday for example the play always seemed on Odwa’s side of the field.
@tigershark (Comment 62) : JP won’t play 11.
@Ben (Comment 67) : That too
I also just think a combo of JPP and Steyn could be very solid, only negative is that Jpp does not have the speed of a wing anymore 👿 😆
@Morné (Comment 56) : Instead of making kak prediction why don’t you give us some insight on what happens behind the scenes with refs and tmo’s after a match in terms of evaluations?
@Morné (Comment 56) : Oh the jinxing machine is back….. 😈
@sharks_lover (Comment 66) : I was very disappointed with Mvovo on Saturday.He looked low on confidence and had no urgency.Odwa just seems to be more reliable.
@sharks_lover (Comment 31) : Agree with most of your selection. Although I think Mtyanda should start at nr 4 and Botha as impact. Your loosies are spot on. Also think that I would not play JPP out of position just to give Wilson a run. Heimar and Andre both quite good but do they have the speed for 13? That’s kind of sticky. If Sbura is OK to play I would play him at 13 outside Frans
@Bokhoring (Comment 47) : Yup.
@Ben (Comment 65) : Mnnn,you sure about that? Morné’s predictions are usually wrong!
@Pokkel (Comment 70) : 😆
@robdylan (Comment 4) : I try to be objective, even in the heat of the game, so when we thought SP had scored and they showed the first replay (before the ref asked for the TMO) my first impression was that the ball touched Odwa’s hand, then onto the Bulls player, then straight down.
It was far less clear-cut than the blatant forward pass by Kriel, but it was the correct decision in my opinion.
I think the fact that Greeff had eagle-eye vision with Odwa’s review as opposed to total blindness with Kriel’s is why so many people are calling him a cheat.
Hey Rob how’s your feeling on the way Bissie handled Matfield’s thuggish play.I think Bissie could have milked the situation better and maybe got Vic sent off?
@tigershark (Comment 72) : Maybe so mate, but all payers have that bad match, and till now very few of our backline players have stood up in all 3 matches.
@Pokkel (Comment 75) : He had the last 2 Sharks predictions spot on. The Cheetahs and Bulls game that is. Didn’t see his prediction for the Lions game.
I just hated it when Vic gave PSDT a little pat on the head.It did seem to affect his confidence!!!
@coolfusion (Comment 73) : Agree, I just was not sure and still am not if Sbura will be ready for selection.
JpP played 13 in Japan.
LOck like I said there Oupa or Botha,
@Pokkel (Comment 70) : That would be helpful too. 😆
Morne’s prediction accuracy has improved MARKEDLY in the last few years. Give the man some credit.
@sharks_lover (Comment 31) : by Oupa you mean Planet?
He’s not a 4.
@sharks_lover (Comment 31) : I liked Kanko at 8 and Bothma at 7.Alberts off the bench.
@tigershark (Comment 78) : thing is, Bis does not have the temperament to milk a situation, and Vic knows that. So Victor 1 – Bismark 0 I am afraid…
@tigershark (Comment 81) : And when Kankowski shook his hand. For what!? 😈
@robdylan (Comment 84) : So he’s up from 20% to 40%? hehehehe…that is definitely a ‘marked’ improvement. 😈
@Ice (Comment 87) : Spot on Ice. Ice cold comment that!
@Ben (Comment 88) : For him constantly standing in on our field teamtalks! He was so annoying and he knew that. I reckon Kanko was a bit sarcastic by doing it. Victor was out to play mindgames on Saturday.
@Pokkel (Comment 89) : I don’t think Morne has called a Sharks result wrong in the last 18 months
@robdylan (Comment 14) :
The problem in rugby with non-neutral refs is that there is to many decisions based on interpretations.
I barely ever interpret a refs decision the same as a Bulls supporter, while for some reason, when I go on Sharksworld, without having discussed the rugby with anyone here at all, they all agree with me. Once you start interpreting a rule your bias will have an influence on how you decide the outcome.
If rugby rules were all black and white (I think there’s a pun in there), it would have been a different story.
There would have been no debate, the ref called it wrong, he should be penalized or the ref called it right because of law, so and so. Not, it could have gone either way, depends how you look at it.
They are clearly looking at it as two people who grew up in Pretoria supporting the Bulls. Naas said it best at half time – If you live in Pretoria that pass clearly went backwards.
@Ice (Comment 91) : I don’t know why he bothered then. His face is annoying enough already. He didn’t need to do anything on top of it.
@robdylan (Comment 92) : I must have missed those…..
@Letgo (Comment 93) : Well said. Completely agree.
@Letgo (Comment 93) : you are spot on
@robdylan (Comment 85) : Lubabalo Mtyanda
@Ben (Comment 94) : simple, listening to our line out tactics etc. There was quite some steals from him, not so?. He certainly annoyed me by doing that.
@sharks_lover (Comment 98) :
Giant
@Letgo (Comment 100) : something like that 😆
@Ice (Comment 87) : I think Vic getting one over Bissie irritated me more than the ref!!!
@Ice (Comment 99) :
I don’t think what he did was sportsmanlike.
Bissie never likes being played of the ball, has no time for cheats like that. I’m always surprised that he is able to restrain himself and not slap the guy, he lifts up his hand for the “snot-klap” and then pulls out.
Bissie is not diplomatic enough to be a captain. I think his decision making is great, as well as motivating the players and keeping them calm and focused, but his manage of the ref is poor. That is why Jean de Villiers is gold for the Boks. Unfortunately these days, sometimes, it all comes down to ref management.
De Villiers would have been able to get the ref to review that last call.
Our players in general is bad at that – when Stegman advanced and played the ball bouncing from Basson, we should have all thrown our hands up in the air.
When you see a mistake and the ref does not call it, you need to let the ref know that you saw it, in a very obvious way and right away.
@tigershark (Comment 102) : For sure, but Bis held back BIG time there…the “old” Bis might have caused some damage to Richelieu’ legs’s face!
@robdylan (Comment 92) :
Not since I stopped playing SuperBru! Second season now!
@Letgo (Comment 103) : Agree 100%
@Morné (Comment 105) : Selective reading old chap??
@Ice (Comment 104) : I hear you on Bissie actually holding back.Could have been entertaining to see him pull through with the hit.Would have taken the old mans head right off. 😈
As a Bulls supporter, who used to live in Pta, I can honestly say that Kriel’s pass was everything but legal. I was as astonished with that call as I was with Pierre Spies scoring a try.
That was the shift in momentum. The SP non try and Serfontein try both looked correct. The latter’s elbow never left the ball.
The ref was shaky. I think – and here I don’t think many will agree with me – when Stegman scored he told Coetzee that if it werent for the try he would have received a yellow – whether he deserved it or not. That’s rubbish. Nowhere does it say a try cancells out a yellow card.
And in my opinion Vic should have been penalised when he took Bismarck out from an off side position, but when Bissie retaliated with the forearm with slaps and punches, a yelliw wouls not have been to harsh.
@Blue Centurion (Comment 109) : Classy comment. Yes, you do have very valid points there.
@Blue Centurion (Comment 109) : The ref had an absolute shocker! I think we can all agree on that, irrespective of what team we support.
@stevovo (Comment 41) : Let’s not forget that is a part time “job” and until we get Fulltime professional refs this sort of thing will happen from time to time @Ben (Comment 111) : Yes , he may not have had his best game, spare him a thought though it was his super rugby debut , I am asking what the [email protected] the appointment panel were thinking giving him a bulls sharks game for his debut
@Blue Centurion (Comment 109) : you’re correct that Coetzee should have been carded.
Assuming the individual transgressions where actually “real”…. this in the context of the ref giving Marcell a very hard time all game, often unfairly. But yes, his own logic and understanding of the laws let him down there.
@stevovo (Comment 41) : My question is how can you have amateurs(not Fulltime they don’t get a salary only gets paid per game has a Fulltime job outside of refereeing) refs officiating a game that has gone professional a long time ago , that is asking for trouble the same goes for most other sports and they wonder why refs make mistakes.
@Ben (Comment 111) : Like I said he was handed a raw deal being handed this game for his superugby debut , but I can assure you he is actually a quite decent ref
@BR (Comment 115) : 😯 😯 😯
@Ben (Comment 116) : No one can argue that he had a decent game but looking back at his other games you could clearly see he was very nervous
@robdylan (Comment 6) : Full game being rebroadcast tomorrow morning about 1:30. Saw the game live, will PVR and watch tomorrow again. Need to see if/how my eyes deceived me.
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In the darker hours (early morning or in the evening) a darker fly is more likely to land you a trout.
@Blue Centurion (Comment 109) : “I was as astonished with that call as I was with Pierre Spies scoring a try.” 😀
Why don’t we see you on here more often? I always look forward to your posts.
@Blue Centurion (Comment 109) : I agree with every one of those comments…
In answer to Gary Gold’s query, I would say that there was different burden of proof on the evidence for the TMO in the two situations.
In the case of the “forward pass” the referee had already awarded a try and the TMO was required to look for clear and convincing evidence to over turn the decision.
In the other case, the AR had indicated he’d seen a possible knock-on and the TMO only had to look for evidence of confirmation.
It’s similar to the difference between the “give me a reason NOT to award a try” and the “try, no try” questions.
Another interesting thing is that there was a similar incident to the 10m rule in the Lions/Stormers match.
Look at 1:35 in the 1st half.
There was a box-kick by the Lions that went less than 10m. The ref shouted, “10m Red” and a few Lions (not all) retreated.
Play continued without a penalty.
@fyndraai (Comment 123) : ok, I’m sorry, but now you’re just talking shit.
Basson was 1m AHEAD of Hougaard when he kicked that ball. Never mind the fact that 5 other players within the 10m radius never retreated, Hougaard never did anything to put Basson onside.
@robdylan (Comment 124) :
Calling out off-side kick chasers is part of the AR’s duties and he was right there and did not call it.
Which means the case for Basson being on-side is pretty strong.
Where Stegman et al stood with the laws I’m not so sure about.
But did you check out the event in the Lions/Stormers match? What do you think, similar or not?
@fyndraai (Comment 122) : Seriously dude. The whole world feels it was a forward pass. Take off your blue tinted glasses!
@fyndraai (Comment 123) : @fyndraai (Comment 125) : You must be kidding. Two wrongs make a right, right? 🙄