robdylan

Putting this puzzle together right


Written by Rob Otto (robdylan)

Posted in :Original Content, Sharks, Super Rugby on 6 Nov 2015 at 13:43
Tagged with : ,

There’s been some very interesting discussion on another thread about the Sharks’ backline options for the coming season. I thought I’d add my voice and hopefully we can carry on the debate and perhaps even come to some sort of agreement.

Why is this coming up at all? Well, the answer is quite simple – the Sharks have any number of backline players who can play (and have) played in a number of different positions. While some have gone on to settle in one jersey (Pat Lambie at 10, for example) others are still seemingly not quite clear about what their best position truly is.

Let’s start by calling out the main options (I mean players that are likely to form part of a first or second choice backline in Super Rugby) and look at the positions they can play:

Cobus Reinach (9 or maybe wing)
Michael Claassens (9)
Stefan Ungerer (9)
Pat Lambie (10,12 or 15)
Joe Pietersen (10 or 15)
Lionel Cronje (10,12 or 15)
Inny Radebe (10)
Garth April (10 or 15)
Curwin Bosch (10 or 15)
Andre Esterhuizen (12, wing or 15)
Heimar Williams (12 or 13)
Paul Jordaan (10, 12, 13 or wing)
Waylon Murray (12, 13 or wing)
JP Pietersen (13, wing or 15)
Lwazi Mvovo (wing or 15)
Odwa Ndungane (wing or 15)
Sibusiso Sithole (13 or wing)
Wandile Mjekevu (13 or wing)
Willie le Roux (10, wing or 15)
Jaco van Tonder (10, wing or 15)

It doesn’t take a particularly mathematical brain to work out that the number of potential permutations of 7 players out of that lot is, frankly staggering. While a mix and match approach might work OK in some cases (let’s take a guy like Joe Pietersen, who will probably be looked at as an “alternate” in two positions) one feels that, from a skills and team development point of view, it’s very important that each of the above players is used in one primary position. Switching back and forth between centre and wing, for instance, is not a great way to build up a solid defensive understanding of the role of a 13 and in the case of younger players still finding their feet, one feels that positional certainty is a must at this point.

So here’s the challenge: surely, given the above talent, it must be possible to put together a formidable combination (or even two) capable of really dominating, both on attack and in defence. If you were the coach, how would you do it? Which players would you pick in each position (and why?). Furthermore, which particular skills or attributes of the players you pick would you seek to capitalise on – and also, which ones do you feel seriously need to be improved?

A fun challenge for a Friday, if nothing more.


263 Comments

  • The area of concern for me is 12; Esterhuizen looks better at wing (for now), I’m unconvinced by Paul Jordaan at 12, Heimar, I am sorry to say, strikes me as a Currie Cup player with a future in accounting, and frankly, the idea of Waylon at 12 is too ghastly to contemplate

  • Comment 1, posted at 06.11.15 13:56:47 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling Song
     
  • From the little I’ve seen of Inny, I feel he could make a very good 12 in the future.

  • Comment 2, posted at 06.11.15 14:04:14 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 1) : If Cronje knew how to tackle he could have been a real option.
    Jordaan can but needs to be a Giteau or Beale type 12. How about Van Tonder as a 12?

    1st choice:
    9 Claasens
    10 Pat
    12 Jordaan
    13 Sbura
    11 Mvovo
    14 Esterhuizen
    15 Le Roux

    2nd
    9 Reinach
    10 Inny
    12 Van Tonder
    13 Williams
    11 Joe P
    14 JPP
    15 April

  • Comment 3, posted at 06.11.15 14:05:54 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • Rob, please could you clarify “Cobus Reinach (9 or maybe wing)” , is the maybe wing from discussions on this website? or is he actually looking at wing?

  • Comment 4, posted at 06.11.15 14:06:27 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 1) : you and I are on the same page here.

    if I had complete freedom to do things my way, I would “configure” as follows (leaving 12 out because I genuinely don’t see the solution in what we have)

    15 Lwazi Mvovo – to me, he is a lethal counter-attacker and brings the right blend of defensive positioning and attacking nous. One-on-one defence is just so much better than le Roux’s and he’s just physically that much more imposing. I need him to work on his kicking game (it goes without saying)
    11 – JP Pietersen. On his day he’s the best player in the world in this position, so let’s leave him there and let him do his thing. The move to 13 has messed with his head, and it’s time to undo that damage.
    13- S’bura Sithole. So much still to learn in this position, but I don’t see any other credible options and at least S’bura has time on his side. He is powerful and quick and that’s just what you need at 13.
    12 – ???
    11- Willie le Roux. The blindside wing coming in as first or second receiver opens up plenty of options for “Willie mayhem” and hopefully this way we’ll be spared some of the worst defensive cock-ups he tends to make at fullback. A little concerned about this strategy when we have a Savea or somebody like that playing directly against him, so that one-on-one defensive ability will need to improve markedly
    10 – Pat Lambie. Our general. My biggest concern is finding a decent enough 12 to complement him.
    9 – Michael Claasens. A scrummy must get the basics right and until Reinach or Ungerer finds out how, Mike is the man who should play.

  • Comment 5, posted at 06.11.15 14:07:27 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • What is apparent form your list is we have a back-line full of fullbacks. Maybe this is the root of our problem.

  • Comment 6, posted at 06.11.15 14:07:54 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 4) : no, he’s not looking at wing. Just added that because I guess he could play there. Should probably remove it.

  • Comment 7, posted at 06.11.15 14:07:56 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 7) : Ok well leave it there as we all agree he should be a wing :mrgreen: 😈

  • Comment 8, posted at 06.11.15 14:08:31 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 5) : Now all we need is Ma’a Nonu and the picture is complete

  • Comment 9, posted at 06.11.15 14:10:56 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling Song
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 5) : Definitely agree with you on Michael Claasens.

  • Comment 10, posted at 06.11.15 14:12:40 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 9) : Plum did try and lure him some seasons ago when he was out of the All Blacks team, I think at the time he could not even get a local contract in new zealand.

  • Comment 11, posted at 06.11.15 14:13:22 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Ben (Comment 10) : for sure, I actually fell off my chair reading that… 😆

  • Comment 12, posted at 06.11.15 14:14:07 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 9) : Maybe John Smit can give his old buddy Plum a call and enquire? 😈

  • Comment 13, posted at 06.11.15 14:14:42 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 5) : Rob, I still recon S’bura Sithole is more of a wing than a center, not saying he cannot play 13, but my feeling is if he gets the ball he struggles to pass it. He likes to run with the ball and run hard with it.

  • Comment 14, posted at 06.11.15 14:15:57 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 12) : But he (Reinach) is a Springbok, so Gary Gold must believe that he is a better option. 🙄

  • Comment 15, posted at 06.11.15 14:16:36 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • Only issue I have with that is he is already 33.

  • Comment 16, posted at 06.11.15 14:18:11 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • Is Curwin Bosch going straight into the SR side or are they going to bring him in the through lower age groups?

  • Comment 17, posted at 06.11.15 14:20:12 by Caratacus Reply

    Caratacus
     
  • The thing that’s so bloody great about Nonu is that he can do three different things really well (on attack)

    1 he can dominate physically. If he needs to go “route 1” and cross the advantage line, he can do that. Unlike Esterhuizen and our other “bashing 12s” though, he’ll bring the offload as an option, rather than just going to ground.
    2 he can take a gap and set up those outside him (kind of what I consider the “Heimar Williams” approach if Williams would just remember that he’s good at doing that sort of thing). Implies a great passing game,
    3 he has enough pace and ability to actually finish in case he’s the guy taking the pass from whoever else has made the break (World Cup final)…. I wasn’t sure he was still fast enough to do this, but he proved me wrong.

    Name any one of our options at 12 that can do even 2 of those three things and I’ll say let’s pick him.

    To me, Andre can only do 1, while Heimar is only really good at 2. Jordaan, arguably, can only really do 3.

  • Comment 18, posted at 06.11.15 14:20:26 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @Ben (Comment 15) : 🙄 :mrgreen:

  • Comment 19, posted at 06.11.15 14:20:46 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 14) : I hear you on that, but which other player in the squad has the passing game required of a 13?

  • Comment 20, posted at 06.11.15 14:21:11 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 5) :

    It must be Esterhuizen. I know he still has some issues, but he is only 21 and by far the best option we have. Maybe with some good coaching and playing outside Lambie he will improve. For now, it can’t be anyone else.

  • Comment 21, posted at 06.11.15 14:21:49 by Letgo Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Letgo
     
  • @Caratacus (Comment 17) : doubt he’ll play Super Rugby straight away (that would be crazy) but he’ll definitely play Vodacom Cup (or Currie Cup qualifying) rather than waiting for under 19.

  • Comment 22, posted at 06.11.15 14:21:54 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 18) : Baie waar

  • Comment 23, posted at 06.11.15 14:22:23 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 5) : I would go with your selection there Rob. at 12 either a Heimar Williams or Paul Jordaan. For those unsure about Jordaan at 12- go check out him playing 12 for SA schools- the ability is there just needs a reminder.

  • Comment 24, posted at 06.11.15 14:22:53 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 20) : Well like you already pointed out re:Nonu, we actually in big trouble at 12 and 13.

  • Comment 25, posted at 06.11.15 14:23:15 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 1) : I’ve saying for a while that we have a centre problem both at inside and outside.

  • Comment 26, posted at 06.11.15 14:23:46 by GreatSharksays Reply

     
  • @Ben (Comment 15) : mate, ask yourself this question. How would YOU have handled a player that had just been dropped from the Bok World cup squad the way Cobus was? Trust me, in the context of Reinach as a human being (and we should all be decent human beings) Gold did EXACTLY the right thing. Cobus was in a bad place and needed a break and a bit of decent treatment. Gold gave him that. Now it’s back to picking the best scrummie on merit and I think Michael should have the inside track.

  • Comment 27, posted at 06.11.15 14:23:58 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 18) :

    Now if the Sharks can get Nonu, that would be a bloody brilliant signing. I don’t think there’s any reason for him to come to the Sharks though. Much more likely to end his career on a European deal.

  • Comment 28, posted at 06.11.15 14:24:59 by Letgo Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Letgo
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 24) : Jordaan can’t pass. He simply cannot pass. Might have looked great as a 12 at school because he could outstep and out-sprint the competition, but you cannot have a 12 without a passing game.

    Jordaan, to me, is a long way from a place in my starting team because apart from the passing problem, he always shoots out of the line on defence. Cannot carry a 13 who doesn’t know his role in the defensive system.

  • Comment 29, posted at 06.11.15 14:25:54 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 28) : Maria, the chances of ME falling pregnant with YOUR baby would be better 🙂

  • Comment 30, posted at 06.11.15 14:26:22 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 9) : will take SBW if we could get him!!!!!!!

  • Comment 31, posted at 06.11.15 14:26:39 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 25) : Marius Louw is an option for 12 too, even if inexperienced. Esterhuizen reminds me of Nonu in his youth. Nonu has eventually applied himself and now has a very good passing and kicking game which has only made his running game more dangerous as opposition arent too sure what he is going to do and in that extra second he will be through the gap and gone. If Esterhuizen develops those other facets of play then he is a great option at 12. For now he just bashes it up and i dont think that will aide this current sharks side.

  • Comment 32, posted at 06.11.15 14:27:34 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • Reinach gets my vote.

    I watch I couple of the 2014 season games, Sharks and Sprinboks and Cobus played great. He mostly just cleaned the ball very quickly, but as always, weren’t slow to spot a break.

    We’ve always been pretty harsh on or divided on our scrummies on this site.

    Ruan Pienaar/Rory Kocket/Charl McLeod/ Cobus Reinach

    Who’s the best at their peak?

  • Comment 33, posted at 06.11.15 14:29:52 by Letgo Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Letgo
     
  • So…. at 12 (and I’m wiping the tears from my eyes)

    Lionel Cronje? Might have the skills but doesn’t have the mental fortitude to play at this level. Weak defender and we just can’t have that in such a key channel.
    Waylon Murray? He’s hardly ever played there and doesn’t have the passing game. A poor man’s Esterhuizen at 12.
    Paul Jordaan? As above, can’t pass and is a defensive liability
    Heimar Williams? Has the passing game and the footwork required to be a very good 12. Why then does he look so shit when he plays there? Is he trying to play a game that doesn’t come naturally to him?
    Andre Esterhuizen. TIME is on his side, but his passing is a big concern. Ticks a couple of other boxes (size, dominates in the tackle if he can get into the right position to make one, crosses advantage line but often dies with the ball when he does so)….

    I guess it has to be Esterhuizen but there is so much to work on there….

  • Comment 34, posted at 06.11.15 14:30:43 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 29) : i do get your concerns. Having watched him play in that Sa schools side and then the 7s side i know he has an all round ability. Yes he may not be producing it at the moment but which sharks guys are at their peak currently? Id rather have Jordaan at 12 than a bash bash esterhuizen. Williams or Marius Louw would be good options too though

  • Comment 35, posted at 06.11.15 14:31:31 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • My backline when everyone is fit.

    15. Willie – Needs to work on his defense and kicking, but he is good under the high ball and can join in as first receiver.

    14. JPP – definitely his best position and the best in this position when he’s on form.

    13. Sithole – like Rob said, he’s still young and can still learn a lot. Feel he needs to work more on offloading in the tackles.

    12. Heimar – Far from the finished product but he offers more at 12 than Esterhuizen does in my opinion.

    11. Lwazi – the speedster of the team.

    10. Lambie – best 10 in SA. By a country mile! 😉

    9. Claassens – we need a 9 that can do the basics well, although I do feel that all our 9’s will improve with Robert in the coaching set up.

    Furthermore I would have Reinach, Esterhuizen and Pietersen on the bench.

  • Comment 36, posted at 06.11.15 14:31:50 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 33) : I just want Mike to start to give Cobus the kick up the backside required. We know he can do it, but now he needs to knuckle down and find that form.

  • Comment 37, posted at 06.11.15 14:32:16 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • man, I would love to get a coach’s perspective on this. I wonder where Morne is.

  • Comment 38, posted at 06.11.15 14:33:21 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • Easy to select the team:
    15 Joe (most underrated player in the world)
    14 JPP (must just keep the form he had in World cup)
    13 Jordaan / Sithole (both need lots of work to make them proper options)
    12 Heimar (need a play maker at 12 and if given chance he will get back his confidence)
    11 Mvovo (no need for motivation)
    10 Pat (see Mvovo)
    9 Claassens (best 9 in Durbs)

    23 Le Roux
    22 Andre
    21Reinach

  • Comment 39, posted at 06.11.15 14:33:44 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 27) : My gripe isn’t really with that, it’s more with what Gold said. If I remember correctly he said something in the line of any player that is released from the Boks will be a guaranteed starter in his side.

  • Comment 40, posted at 06.11.15 14:35:00 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 33) : The Charl McLeod 2010 version was the best in my opinion.

  • Comment 41, posted at 06.11.15 14:38:22 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • 8 October 2016: South Africa v New Zealand, Growthpoint Kings Park, Durban

    I may just buy a season ticket based on this game

  • Comment 42, posted at 06.11.15 14:40:26 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 34) : Heimar is better than you think but not when a coach expects him to bash it up!!!! Even Matt Giteu will look shit if the coach wants him to play a bashing game, it’s not their game let them step and pass and you will see totally different players!!!!!!!!!!

  • Comment 43, posted at 06.11.15 14:40:44 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @Ben (Comment 41) : He was a top scummy, everyone gave him so much crap, yes he did knock the ball more than we all wanted him too. but when he didnt do that he really was the top no9 in the country.

  • Comment 44, posted at 06.11.15 14:45:02 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • Miss the days of 2007 when we had the barrit/murray combo.and then adi jacobs would come off the bench and play like the best centre in sa!

  • Comment 45, posted at 06.11.15 14:48:50 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • @Ben (Comment 40) : Sharks PR machine tends to take the stuff that Gold actually says and find ways to make it sound as stupid as humanly possible.

  • Comment 46, posted at 06.11.15 14:50:24 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @50shadesofshark (Comment 45) : What on earth happened to Waylon? The Waylon of 2007 and the Waylon of late can’t even be compared. It’s like two different people.

  • Comment 47, posted at 06.11.15 14:51:11 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Ben (Comment 47) : 8 years of mostly injuries!!!!!!!!!! Need more info?

  • Comment 48, posted at 06.11.15 14:53:27 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 46) : You and Sheldon batting for the same team now? 😈 🙂

  • Comment 49, posted at 06.11.15 14:54:23 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 46) : if you want scary think if we got PDiv as a coach what the PR department would do with that!!!!!!!!!!!! scary boet scary 😈

  • Comment 50, posted at 06.11.15 14:55:23 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @Ben (Comment 49) : don’t talk about people batting might lose them to the Proteas!!!!!!!

  • Comment 51, posted at 06.11.15 14:57:30 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @Ben (Comment 47) : Only one word…. Barrit….

  • Comment 52, posted at 06.11.15 15:03:29 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Ben (Comment 49) : if you’re asking if we’re both into girls, then I’d say yes! 🙂

  • Comment 53, posted at 06.11.15 15:05:10 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 53) : Not exactly. 🙂

  • Comment 54, posted at 06.11.15 15:07:47 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 52) : He was very good.

  • Comment 55, posted at 06.11.15 15:12:32 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @JD (Comment 50) : To think about it, the way JS always credited PdV for what great coach he is, I cannot understand why JS has not employed him.

  • Comment 56, posted at 06.11.15 15:14:10 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • I’m a bit disappointed that we didn’t scoop up William Small-Smith.

  • Comment 57, posted at 06.11.15 15:14:29 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 29) : 12 not passing game …..hey your Bok 12 fits that bill 😉

    Enjoying this tread Rob !!!

  • Comment 58, posted at 06.11.15 15:16:24 by The Brand Reply

     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 56) : stop it don’t give them ideas!!!!!!!!!!! Can we please have the comment removed before anyone else can read it!!!!!!!!!! 😈 😆

  • Comment 59, posted at 06.11.15 15:21:42 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @Ben (Comment 57) : But he did go to the Cheetahs, so he should be joining up with the Sharks in the not too distant future. 😈

  • Comment 60, posted at 06.11.15 15:26:04 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 37) :

    I agree with that.

  • Comment 61, posted at 06.11.15 15:31:17 by Letgo Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Letgo
     
  • 15. le Roux 14. Mvovo 13. Jordaan 12. Esterhuizen 11. JPP 10. Lambie 9. Claasens. The potential of the centres is huge and I’m interested to see what Robert du Preez can make of it… Personally I’d rotate Williams with Jordaan at outside centre – he always looks to have good gas, good hands and I’d like to see him there regularly as a creative, linking centre – Sithole to rotate wingers. Interested that none of Louw, Maritz, Khubeka, Marawana or Isaacs are on the list – none of them ready to step up? I’d be interested to see Louw get some game time if he’s ready…

  • Comment 62, posted at 06.11.15 15:38:34 by JR Reply

     
  • 9) Claasens 10) Pat 11) Lwazi 12) Esterhuizen 13) Jordaan 14) JP 15) Willie with Reinach, Joe Pieterson and Sbura on the bench

  • Comment 63, posted at 06.11.15 15:44:17 by woody Reply
    Author
    woody
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 22) : Thanks Rob.

  • Comment 64, posted at 06.11.15 15:48:46 by Caratacus Reply

    Caratacus
     
  • @JR (Comment 62) : maybe shouldn’t have left Louw off the list. Not sure any of the others are ready.

  • Comment 65, posted at 06.11.15 15:51:40 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @JR (Comment 62) : i keep on thinking the sharks should try and see if they cant get daniel du plessis down to dbn for the 2016 sr season but then i remember marius louw.i have not seen him play at 12 .how is his defensive capabilities therei can remember him as a terrier at 6 for grey bloem.
    Options at 12: esterhuizen,williams,louw.
    Barrit brought defensive stabilty to the sharks at 12.also helped that he had an aggressive tackler at 10 in butch james.the 10/12 defensive line was tough to get through.and barrit was a good passer of the ball.so our 10/12 could both tackle and distribute the ball well.

  • Comment 66, posted at 06.11.15 16:02:05 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • @50shadesofshark (Comment 66) : I remember Barrit playing a few games at 10 for the Sharks as well, he did pretty good considering hes a 12.

  • Comment 67, posted at 06.11.15 16:11:12 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 67) : he was just such a good, “thinking” player.

  • Comment 68, posted at 06.11.15 16:12:15 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 67) : Heimar Williams has also filled in at 10 for the Vodacom Cup side..

  • Comment 69, posted at 06.11.15 16:12:51 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 69) : Thats interesting must say, I never knew that.

    @robdylan (Comment 68) : very good thinker.

  • Comment 70, posted at 06.11.15 16:19:38 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 69) : Paul Jordaan too, if I’m not mistaken.

  • Comment 71, posted at 06.11.15 16:22:44 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • I have a GREAT idea for a 12 for the Sharks. Jean De Villiers anyone…?

    Ahahahahahaaaaahahahahahaaaaa!

  • Comment 72, posted at 06.11.15 16:23:53 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling Song
     
  • @Ben (Comment 71) : I think he has at vodacom level

  • Comment 73, posted at 06.11.15 16:25:27 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 72) : add puke watson to that list

  • Comment 74, posted at 06.11.15 16:26:10 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 73) : Jordaan last plated flyhalf at u21 level.

    http://www.sharksworld.co.za/2011/09/29/u21s-show-few-changes/

  • Comment 75, posted at 06.11.15 16:27:41 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 67) : can recall 2006 vs cheetahs in cc at dbn.frans steyn’s sharks debut(at 15).

  • Comment 76, posted at 06.11.15 16:31:51 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • @robdylan (Comment 75) : I had a feeling it was u/21, looking at that team, what ever happened to Piet Lindeque?

    Edit : don’t worry I found it: In June 2014, the Cheetahs agreed to release Lindeque from the remainder of his contract as he decided to retire, aged 23, to pursue a future in farming.

    @50shadesofshark (Comment 76) : FS Debut was against WP at 10, in pouring rain in dbn 😉

  • Comment 77, posted at 06.11.15 16:33:39 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 77) : Retired from rugby to pursue a future in farming. 🙂

  • Comment 78, posted at 06.11.15 16:37:39 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 75) : Darn, there was some serious talent in that u/21 team back then. Did they win any trophies at the time?

  • Comment 79, posted at 06.11.15 16:37:55 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Ben (Comment 78) : So sad, at age 23….

  • Comment 80, posted at 06.11.15 16:38:33 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 77) : @Ben (Comment 78) : Never mind.

  • Comment 81, posted at 06.11.15 16:38:44 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 80) : Depends how big the farm is. 🙂

  • Comment 82, posted at 06.11.15 16:39:49 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 75) : You still in contact with beet?

  • Comment 83, posted at 06.11.15 16:42:39 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • People I reckon we should see how the current team plays under the coaching of Du Preez before we get totally stressed out, I also believe he will work on the individual players skills etc, Just so you guys know W Le Roux used to be a 10 too.

  • Comment 84, posted at 06.11.15 16:45:14 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 84) : I thought they would be playing under the coaching of Gold 😈 😈 😈 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  • Comment 85, posted at 06.11.15 16:46:36 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 84) : Yes. It’s in the article.

    “Willie le Roux (10, wing or 15)”

  • Comment 86, posted at 06.11.15 16:51:08 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 85) : Eish boet, surely Robert would not have come to the Sharks to be a corner post?

  • Comment 87, posted at 06.11.15 16:54:06 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Ben (Comment 86) : Ya I just went back and checked, depending who we playing he might be an option at 10 with Lambie at 12, so a backline like this??

    15 Mvovo
    14 Jpp
    13 Esterhuizen
    12 Lambie
    11 Sbura
    10 Le Roux
    09 Reinach/Claasens

    Esterhuizen and Sbura can always swop during the match. Jordaan, Heimer and Ungerer/Claasens on the bench.

    This excludes the likes of some players that should also get game time, and I base this backline purely for running rugby, Le Roux for me has one weakness and that is his defence at times.

  • Comment 88, posted at 06.11.15 17:04:45 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 88) : Can’t we get Lambie to play 10 and 12 at the same time? 🙂

  • Comment 89, posted at 06.11.15 17:11:30 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Ben (Comment 89) : That would solve a lot of our problems.

  • Comment 90, posted at 06.11.15 17:12:37 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Ben (Comment 89) : Best idea you have come with to date :mrgreen: 😆

  • Comment 91, posted at 06.11.15 17:17:29 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 77) : no it wasnt.re-check your stats.

  • Comment 92, posted at 06.11.15 17:24:15 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • So if one signing had to be made in the backline: 12 or 13?

  • Comment 93, posted at 06.11.15 17:29:00 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • @robdylan (Comment 29) : He also drops an inordinate amount of passes for a top flight centre

  • Comment 94, posted at 06.11.15 17:54:10 by KingCheetah Reply

    KingCheetah
     
  • @JD (Comment 39) : Lol, I wonder if poor Willie envisaged that he will be signing up to the Sharks to sit on the bench? His agent will be looking for loopholes out of his contract, if he was to read this.

    Now I am not so perturbed about you hunting Lood. I just have to tell him, he is likely to sit on the bench behind Oosthuiseen or Lewies :mrgreen: 👿

  • Comment 95, posted at 06.11.15 18:00:23 by KingCheetah Reply

    KingCheetah
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 95) : Sitting on the bench behind Oosthuizen must be the ultimate low in rugby.

  • Comment 96, posted at 06.11.15 18:05:00 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @KingCheetah have u seen much of marius louw at 12?

  • Comment 97, posted at 06.11.15 18:10:12 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 88) : You would play mvovo at 15 with so many experienced 15 I would keep our best wing on wing.

  • Comment 98, posted at 06.11.15 18:25:02 by coolfusion Reply

    coolfusion
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 95) : @Ben (Comment 96) : Based on his showings of late, I’d go as far as convincing Jacques Botes to come out of retirement and play 4 rather than letting Oosthuizen back on the pitch…

  • Comment 99, posted at 06.11.15 18:31:56 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling Song
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 99) : I can’t stand the guy. And it’s not really been of late, it’s been the whole year! 🙄

  • Comment 100, posted at 06.11.15 18:34:30 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @50shadesofshark (Comment 97) : No I haven’t to be honest.

  • Comment 101, posted at 06.11.15 18:58:44 by KingCheetah Reply

    KingCheetah
     
  • @Ben (Comment 83) : every day

  • Comment 102, posted at 06.11.15 19:19:55 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 94) : for a top flight centrerugby player

  • Comment 103, posted at 06.11.15 19:21:21 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 103) : but in all seriousness and without wanting to pick on individuals or be nasty – Paul Jordaan, to me, has a lot of basic, basic skills he needs to improve before he can really come back and nail down a starting place for the Sharks. He’s still young, but the longer he waits before realising he has issues, the worse it’s going to get.

    This same argument applies to a lot of the other Sharks players, just in case it seems like I’m singling Tollie out.

  • Comment 104, posted at 06.11.15 19:24:34 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 30) : That made me laugh!!!

  • Comment 105, posted at 06.11.15 20:16:17 by Letgo Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Letgo
     
  • And its another 100 for Kevin Pietersen, this time off 45 balls. 😎

  • Comment 106, posted at 06.11.15 20:58:10 by Salmonoid the Subtle Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Salmonoid the Subtle
     
  • @Salmonoid the Subtle (Comment 106) : Great stuff…another Dolphins win!

  • Comment 107, posted at 06.11.15 21:31:47 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • In other news: Durban FINALLY gets a Springbok/All Blacks test match in 2016! Yay…

  • Comment 108, posted at 06.11.15 21:32:40 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • So at this stage this would be my backline:
    9 – Claassens
    10 – Lambie
    11 – Willie
    12 – Esterhuizen (because the other 12’s just don’t put their hands up)
    13 – Sburra
    14 – JPP
    15 – Mvovs
    My internal debate is whether to have Willie at 15 and Mvovo at 11…or vice versa…

  • Comment 109, posted at 06.11.15 21:38:25 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 18) : Good analysis…though I thought Andre started looking a bit better at the tail end of the Currie Cup…

  • Comment 110, posted at 06.11.15 21:41:24 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @Letgo (Comment 21) : I agree…

  • Comment 111, posted at 06.11.15 21:42:17 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 30) : 😀 😀 😀

  • Comment 112, posted at 06.11.15 21:45:13 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 34) : That was exactly my train of thought…as in exactly!

  • Comment 113, posted at 06.11.15 21:48:26 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • Let’s ask dan kriel if he wants to be a starting center instead of being wasted at the bulls?

  • Comment 114, posted at 06.11.15 21:51:42 by coolfusion Reply

    coolfusion
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 52) : Exactly…

  • Comment 115, posted at 06.11.15 21:52:50 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 109) : Willie one side mvovo the other and Joe at 15?

  • Comment 116, posted at 06.11.15 21:52:50 by coolfusion Reply

    coolfusion
     
  • @coolfusion (Comment 116) : Well, at least we have option…I would just love to see “World Cup JPP” in black and white again…

  • Comment 117, posted at 06.11.15 21:54:07 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @Ben (Comment 57) : Me too…

  • Comment 118, posted at 06.11.15 21:55:01 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @Ben (Comment 60) : I’d love to get Francois Venter into a black and white jersey…

  • Comment 119, posted at 06.11.15 21:56:11 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @Ben (Comment 89) : 10, 12 and 15…on my playstation I’ve created 3 Lambies like that… 😀

  • Comment 120, posted at 06.11.15 22:01:43 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @50shadesofshark (Comment 93) : Absolutely…I pick Francois Venter as a realistic option…

  • Comment 121, posted at 06.11.15 22:03:16 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @KingCheetah (Comment 95) : Don’t believe everything you read on here! :mrgreen:

  • Comment 122, posted at 06.11.15 22:04:19 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 99) : Oosterhuizen strikes me as a player that has been deprived of coaching from day 1. Common problem with kids that were the biggest in their age groups. He just looks clumsy or out of fit on the field…don’t know. He needs to be told and shown his role within the team. With that size, strength and pace he should really be solid on the field. With proper coaching and improved fitness which would lead to better concentration, he can develop into something very solid.

  • Comment 123, posted at 07.11.15 06:08:07 by GreatSharksays Reply

     
  • 9 – Claassens (although when Reinarch is on form it’s difficult to leave out)
    10 – Lambie
    11 – Mvovo
    12 – Williams
    13 – Sithole
    14 – Esterhuizen (If JPP can string together more than 2 good games then maybe him)
    15 – Willie

  • Comment 124, posted at 07.11.15 07:48:59 by Hulk Reply

    Hulk
     
  • @Hulk (Comment 124) : If Gold can leave him (jp) be and let him play wing he should be fine.

  • Comment 125, posted at 07.11.15 13:37:50 by coolfusion Reply

    coolfusion
     
  • @GreatSharksays (Comment 123) : Boet if you think Esterhuizen is not good enough then in my view the whole team should go, in the last month of playing Andre was probably or best and most consistent player, we should get away from blaming the players for everything until we have decent coaching in place, If you as I am feel GG is not the right coach, why then are we blaming the players??

  • Comment 126, posted at 07.11.15 15:50:02 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 126) : He is talking about Etienne Oosthuizen.

  • Comment 127, posted at 07.11.15 16:19:40 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • Jake’s stampkarre getting their arses handed to them by Toulon.

  • Comment 128, posted at 07.11.15 17:08:02 by Spirit of Rugby Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Spirit of Rugby
     
  • @Spirit of Rugby (Comment 128) : I’m watching the Saracens vs Northampton game.

  • Comment 129, posted at 07.11.15 18:06:17 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Spirit of Rugby (Comment 128) : Montpellier got their asses handed to them by Toulouse last week as well.

  • Comment 130, posted at 07.11.15 18:07:34 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • Michael Rhodes is playing for the Saracens now.

  • Comment 131, posted at 07.11.15 19:01:28 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 126) : Time to know your players.

  • Comment 132, posted at 07.11.15 19:07:57 by GreatSharksays Reply

     
  • @Ben (Comment 129) : Not the most exciting game ever…

  • Comment 133, posted at 07.11.15 20:12:16 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 133) : 12-6, no tries, *yawn*

  • Comment 134, posted at 07.11.15 20:13:09 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @Spirit of Rugby (Comment 128) : @Ben (Comment 130) : Are Bismarck and co. already playing for them?

  • Comment 135, posted at 07.11.15 20:14:03 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 133) : Yeah, tell me about it….

  • Comment 136, posted at 08.11.15 03:54:52 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @50shadesofshark (Comment 45) : That was probably my favourite Sharks team of the last decade and I usually compare the latest crop of players with the 2007 group, what they provided and the roles they performed.

  • Comment 137, posted at 08.11.15 08:46:24 by MerckZ Reply

    MerckZ
     
  • @Ben (Comment 36) : I’d go with that, though I’d prefer AN Other at 12 (I think that centre combination looks a little bit “Currie Cup” for my liking). It’s a pretty good back-line, on form, but you’d have to pick a different one for the first month or so of the tournament, with JP and Willie being in Japan.

  • Comment 138, posted at 08.11.15 09:03:53 by MerckZ Reply

    MerckZ
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 34) : Rob, heard any news about the Sharks’ plans at 12? Are they resolved to persist with what they’ve got? One would imagine the wage bill is a lot lighter after the double du Plessis departure and Frans Steyn heading to pastures new.

    A swansong for Brad Barritt, anyone? I mean he’s not going to play another World Cup for England (unless they want another Mike Catt), so he might as well come home…

  • Comment 139, posted at 08.11.15 09:06:29 by MerckZ Reply

    MerckZ
     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 135) : Not yet. Toulon was also without many of their star players.

  • Comment 140, posted at 08.11.15 09:22:16 by Spirit of Rugby Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Spirit of Rugby
     
  • @Spirit of Rugby (Comment 140) : Aha…thanks! Any ideas when they start playing?

  • Comment 141, posted at 08.11.15 11:25:52 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @MerckZ (Comment 138) : Can anyone confirm when exactly the Japan guys are available…I am getting mixed messages depending on where I look. There is a message out there that the Jap League is changing its calendar to suit the guys with dual contracts. Any truth to that?

  • Comment 142, posted at 08.11.15 11:27:45 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • Just completely off topic. With what Japan was able to do in world cup would they not be better off with less imports and spending money on coaches and structures they had mostly homegrown and quite well with that.

  • Comment 143, posted at 08.11.15 11:56:28 by coolfusion Reply

    coolfusion
     
  • @MerckZ (Comment 139) : I don’t get this. We have a Baby Bok inside centre who improved during the course of the last season and who at 21, can be invested in. If you can show me an England game which suggests that Brad is such a good option that we should trash our development structures for then great. To being people in, they have to be clearly better than what we have – or why do it? For example, was it really worth recruiting all those props, when the end result was to deny opportunities for plenty of home-grown guys that we now miss?

  • Comment 144, posted at 08.11.15 12:00:55 by JR Reply

     
  • @JR (Comment 144) : re Barritt, offensively I mean, in defence the man is a legend. I’m a Barritt fan but I really want us to back our young guys and up skill rather than discard the guys with potential.

  • Comment 145, posted at 08.11.15 12:07:31 by JR Reply

     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 141) : No idea. I’m assuming Jake wants them there asap 😀

  • Comment 146, posted at 08.11.15 14:41:06 by Spirit of Rugby Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    Spirit of Rugby
     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 142) : I hope so. That would make the Japanese contract situation a win-win.

  • Comment 147, posted at 08.11.15 15:35:25 by MerckZ Reply

    MerckZ
     
  • @JR (Comment 144) : I completely agree with what you’re saying, but I don’t see Esterhuizen reaching the required level. I hope I’m wrong and I would want to give him as much of a chance to prove I’m wrong, but I don’t want him as my first choice 12.

    I like Heimar too, and he will always be a hardworking, “useful” player like Andries Strauss. But he doesn’t excite like Frans Steyn did at his best. Neither will be in the Bok reckoning either. Like any greedy fan, I want our first choice players to be international standard.

    On the subject of Barritt’s offensive capabilities, I think if he’s utilised correctly, he is an amazing distributor and facilitator. With Sithole or Jordaan on his outside, he’d be very effective.

    Is there anyone in the youth setup that inspires excitement?

  • Comment 148, posted at 08.11.15 15:48:32 by MerckZ Reply

    MerckZ
     
  • @JR (Comment 144) : @MerckZ (Comment 148) : I’m happy to give Esterhuizen a good shot…I think he was a lot better towards the tail end of the CC…just please get him a good coach!

  • Comment 149, posted at 08.11.15 16:18:43 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @MerckZ (Comment 147) : If this article is correct then Marcell is only in Japan until 31 January…if all the Japan contracts are like that for our men, then we will be full strength for the French tour…

  • Comment 150, posted at 08.11.15 16:30:50 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 150) : http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/coetzee-heads-to-japan

  • Comment 151, posted at 08.11.15 16:33:47 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @MerckZ (Comment 148) : “Is there anyone in the youth setup that inspires excitement?”

    Yes, Marius Louw.

  • Comment 152, posted at 08.11.15 18:11:44 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 151) : searched for info re: willie le roux’s’contract and also says he signed a 3-month contract.

  • Comment 153, posted at 08.11.15 19:14:26 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • Searching for info re jpp & potgieter.

  • Comment 154, posted at 08.11.15 19:16:50 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • @MerckZ (Comment 148) : andries strauss and the 2010 semi vs bulls and final vs wp was brilliant to watch..he knew he was leaving but he gave his all.tackled everything that moved .his defensive effort was massive.

  • Comment 155, posted at 08.11.15 19:23:14 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • Options @13: jordaan sithole murray mjekevu ..jpp ?
    would play sithole at 13 and shift jordaan to the wing.
    At 12 it is between esterhuizen and williams. With marius louw .

  • Comment 156, posted at 08.11.15 19:49:57 by 50shadesofshark Reply

     
  • @50shadesofshark (Comment 155) : I remember that…brilliant!

  • Comment 157, posted at 08.11.15 21:52:36 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @50shadesofshark (Comment 153) : @50shadesofshark (Comment 154) : So it seems that the Japanese Top League season is now shortened because Japan has a Super Rugby side…makes sense…
    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2014/10/25/more-sports/rugby/top-league-set-shorter-season/#.Vj-1bXwaK9t

  • Comment 158, posted at 08.11.15 22:51:50 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 158) : All that would seem to make Japanese contracts a bit more sensible, though the non-stop rugby is still a concern…

  • Comment 159, posted at 08.11.15 22:52:46 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @GreatSharksays (Comment 132) : Well why mention a player that you never notice on the field?? :mrgreen:

  • Comment 160, posted at 09.11.15 08:05:43 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • I cant see the Sharks going with a lineup too different to . 9. Reinach. 10. Lambie. 11. Mvovo. 12. Esterhuizen 13. Jordaan. 14 . JP Pieterson 15. LeRoux. Bench: Classens, Pieterson, Sithole

  • Comment 161, posted at 09.11.15 09:14:47 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • Sorry folks didn’t read through all this but this is always a nice discussion to have.

    Might have been mentioned above BUT, first question would be what the strategy of the Sharks is going to be? Play off 9 or play off 10?

    For me it is an easy decision, you have to play off 10. First reason you don’t really have the pack of old with big carriers and absolute security on set phase ball, which is why I would play a 2-4-2 split with your pack. I think your pack is very talented in the skills department, use that as a weapon.

    Without the traditional SA dominant pack you cannot afford to play off 9. Well that and you don’t really have a 9 you can play off. Claassens might have been that 3 or 4 years ago but in Cobus you have a mini-Aaron Smith if you give him a season or two to develop one or two small areas of his game he struggles with.

    That means play off 10 and there is no better guy in the business to do that than Lambie.

    Remember a couple of years ago when it was said the Sharks played the off-loading and momentum game of the All Blacks? You had McLeod at 9 who had the best service in the country and Lambie dictating off 10.

    If you play off 10 you don’t need a big, physical 12, in fact, you can gamble with hands and feet here. I know most look at Nonu but for my money Conrad Smith is the brains in that combination. Yes Nonu developed a good kicking game in the last 5 years and his size is a bonus, but I’d much prefer a guy with hands and feet at 12 and a strong runner at 13 to cut you down in the wide channels.

    Wings for you guys are easy, fullback I’d use Mvov’s – this dude can become a legend there, just needs slight work on his own kicking game.

    So for me in order of preference:

    9. Cobus/Claassens
    10. Lambie/Inny/Bosch (Bosch and Inny can share)
    11. Mjekevu
    12. Willie
    13. S’Bura/Jordaan
    14. JP
    15. Mvovo

  • Comment 162, posted at 09.11.15 09:24:47 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @Morné (Comment 162) : I like what you’re saying. I’m also a believer in playing off the 10 as it creates more space and puts more doubt in the mind of the opposition.

    I think we could better utilise Heimar Williams at 12 than a crash ball specialist like Esterhuizen, but could adopt a horses for courses approach and vary our gameplan (something we need to do more of in SA rugby).

    Interesting you have Willie at 12, I like that, but is his defence solid enough?

    Mvovo at 15 has always held potential for me. We need to complete his skills and have him there sooner rather than later.

  • Comment 163, posted at 09.11.15 09:36:57 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 163) : The Boks also played off their 10. Unfortunately the 10 was Schalk Burger. 😈

  • Comment 164, posted at 09.11.15 09:39:14 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Morné (Comment 162) : Mjekevu worries me, he hasn’t delivered in the Currie Cup. Big guy, but he needs to look for work more and his option taking was not good.

  • Comment 165, posted at 09.11.15 09:42:13 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @Ben (Comment 164) : Lol don’t tell that to HM. His gameplan was flawless lol

    On a serious note, I had a hard time convincing a work colleague that it wasn’t the players who were playing badly. She said you can’t blame HM. I tried to point out to her that the players executed HM’s plan to the letter.

    Schalk made 26 carries vs Wales for 55m and got over the gain line 11 times. That’s makes for a poor return, but it’s what HM wanted him to do, so not his fault. And we threw away Schalk’s off-loading game.

    So many examples, like De Allende no longer off-loading and just crashing it up. Jesse Kriel thinking he can run away from everyone.

  • Comment 166, posted at 09.11.15 09:48:11 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 165) :

    Esterhuizen is a nice option if Mjekevu doesn’t come off.

  • Comment 167, posted at 09.11.15 09:52:34 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 163) :

    Willie started off as a 10. If you have two threats at 10 and 12 both with great distribution and a good kicking game you have the potential to cause absolute havoc.

    Defence is a system thing for me, I also do not rate Willie as the best defender but if you have a solid defence system this should limit or completely eliminate any such weakness. Also, having Willie drop back on defence from set phases (what Cooper does) is also an option.

  • Comment 168, posted at 09.11.15 09:55:09 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @Morné (Comment 168) : Esterhuizen at 11, Willie at 12, have them swop on defence…? Could definitely work for me!

  • Comment 169, posted at 09.11.15 10:00:03 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling Song
     
  • @Morné (Comment 167) : I was about to say I like you center pairing, but I would then have Esterhuizen at 12 and not Mjekevu, I am yet to see him play 1 good game, but as for the assessment I agree.

  • Comment 170, posted at 09.11.15 10:00:52 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Morné (Comment 168) : OK Morne now this is what I have been saying all along for the Boks, I firmly believe the Boks should pf had a backline of 15 Kriel, 14 JpP, 13 De Allende, 12 Pollard, 11 Habana, 10 Lambie, 09 Fourie.
    subs: Ruan or Paige, Mvovo, Willie
    I do however believe we should have had Fourie being the man to play off, our play should have been more varied.

  • Comment 171, posted at 09.11.15 10:05:24 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 169) : @Culling Song (Comment 169) : @Morné (Comment 168) : The same can happen as Jordaan and JpP could also swop around as needed on the day.

  • Comment 172, posted at 09.11.15 10:08:16 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Morné (Comment 162) : hmm interesting thinking…definitely like the idea behind it. And fr those that argue defensive weakness- i believe all players need to be able to tackle so that cant be an excuse. That lineup is similar to what the Waratahs and Brumbies do with their 12s.

  • Comment 173, posted at 09.11.15 10:12:04 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 161) : That is the backline I would stick too till the Likes of Robert du Preez has had a chance to get to know most of the players and worked with them.

  • Comment 174, posted at 09.11.15 10:23:34 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 173) :

    One-on-one defence as part of the back-three when a line break has been made is bloody difficult – and yes Willie struggles with that but some of the best in the world does too.

    Your inside channel defence and its success is more to do with your system than individual errors.

  • Comment 175, posted at 09.11.15 10:23:35 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @Morné (Comment 168) : Exactly, I’ve always favoured a flyhalf at 12, ala Mauger. Provides another kicking option and you can vary your attack.

    @SheldonK (Comment 173) : Every player should be able to tackle, but they don’t, sad reality.

    I like the idea of moving Willie back on defence. You could have Mvovo or even JPP or Esterhuizen (assuming he’s on the wing) come into that channel. Give Willie broken field running options if they kick onto him on defence.

  • Comment 176, posted at 09.11.15 10:25:16 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @Morné (Comment 175) : At that level if there is a linebreak and a 1on1 you would be expecting your attacker to beat the man most of the time-especially if it is a backline player. Depending as part of a line is a lot easier.

  • Comment 177, posted at 09.11.15 10:39:18 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • Many to not realise the importance of combinations, my point here is we throw many players together and think they will just gel, this is not always the case, If I take one of the best combinations of center play in history it is Tim Horan and Jason Little.

    Now Esterhuizen is a solid 12, but he played his best rugby with Fisher on his outside, He is starting to find that kind of form again with Jordaan who himself is in need of form, problem is changing the combination all the time wont help
    matters

  • Comment 178, posted at 09.11.15 10:40:35 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 178) : One of the best combinations ever. Add to that Little and Bunce.

  • Comment 179, posted at 09.11.15 10:49:30 by StevieS Reply
    Author
    StevieS
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 178) : very valid point

  • Comment 180, posted at 09.11.15 10:51:11 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 179) : For sure,

  • Comment 181, posted at 09.11.15 10:55:27 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 180) : This is why despite what most think I do not believe De Allende is the best option at 12, he is better suited at 13 or 14, his distribution is not great or at times non existent.

  • Comment 182, posted at 09.11.15 10:57:57 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • But then again SA coaches believe you have to have a massive 12 to crash everything, not sure it is always the players fault.

  • Comment 183, posted at 09.11.15 10:58:48 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @StevieS (Comment 176) : Cronje at 12 with Sithole at 13?

  • Comment 184, posted at 09.11.15 11:04:57 by Blue Centurion Reply

    Blue Centurion
     
  • Another problem we seem to forgetting is that Mvovo will probably be playing 7’s this year and will not be in the Sharks setup for SR. A massive loss.

  • Comment 185, posted at 09.11.15 11:05:42 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Morné (Comment 168) : This is exactly the reason I suggested that Inny could be a good 12 in the future. See comment 2.

  • Comment 186, posted at 09.11.15 11:21:46 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 185) : I don’t think so. Mvovo won’t make the cut.

  • Comment 187, posted at 09.11.15 11:22:30 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Morné (Comment 162) : As much as I’m salivating at the mere idea of playing Lambie and le Roux next to each other, I just can’t see the coaches being brave enough to try Willie at 12. I’m also worried that the Sharks will persist with playing off Reinach despite the shortcomings of our pack. The Sharks have a tendency to err on the side of caution far too often these days. I could see this being tried during the Plumtree era but I have my doubts about the current setup when it comes to thinking outside the box.

    But perhaps the approach may change with the arrival of Rob du Preez? Time will tell. Like the idea a lot though.

    Could you expand on your opinion on Mjekevu? As well the 2-4-2 split with our pack?

  • Comment 188, posted at 09.11.15 11:42:46 by vanmartin Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    vanmartin
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 182) : DeAllende is a curious case. He did well at super rugby running at opposition in the 12/13 channel and looking to either offload in the tackle or bust through the gap between 12/13. This was effect as his 13 ran a hard line on his outside. The came the RWC and he played a lot deeper, always ran the cutback line with the ball under 1 arm and tried to break through the entire opposition himself. That wasnt very effective. If he can go back to what he was doing at super rugby and improve on it then i really think he can be a good 12.

  • Comment 189, posted at 09.11.15 11:46:42 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 188) : I mentioned in a post before where we can or could have Lambie at 12 with Le Roux at 10, they of course can swop around depending on the play. the problem stays where we have our 9 thinking instead of our 10. The other problem I have though with Le roux is his kicking out of hand is woeful.

  • Comment 190, posted at 09.11.15 11:57:18 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Ben (Comment 187) : A part of me hopes so too mate.

  • Comment 191, posted at 09.11.15 11:59:10 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 190) : “The other problem I have though with Le roux is his kicking out of hand is woeful.”

    le Roux’s chip kicks are decent enough but I think you’re referring to his tactical kicking which I’m in complete agreement with. That to me means le Roux cannot be considered a complete 10 but rather a stop-gap should we run out of options in that position during a game or through the course of a season. A 12 on the other hand does not need the most perfect kicking game and I reckon that’s why Morne’s suggestion of Willie at 12 has merit. Still don’t think our coaches would go for it though.

  • Comment 192, posted at 09.11.15 12:09:55 by vanmartin Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    vanmartin
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 188) :

    I honestly do not see you having much of an option other than to play off 10. And Robert is an astute coach with very few people knowing the importance and significance of such a mind shift having been one of the best 9’s in the business.

    I really think Mjekevu is an under-utilized talent. It is hard to imagine that he made his Super Rugby debut in 2010 I think, played a season or two in France (which included Top 14, D12 and Heineken Cup appearances) and played for the Junior Boks.

    At around 192 and 96kg’s he is by no means small and a dangerous runner.

    My personal opinion he is suffering from specialised skills coaching – there are certain areas of his game which does need attention but with his experience, and if you back him, that should be sorted quite quickly.

    There is a difference to me in backing a youngster and how he is managed as he develops his game and an experienced guy fixing or fine tuning his game. Think S’bura as an example compared to Mjekevu. While a S’bura needs more coaching and motivating, Mjekevu needs more mentoring (if that makes sense).

    As far as your split goes, it is the various styles or structure you employ in open play.

    A 2-4-2 split refers to how your forwards are split across the field where you have 2 forwards either side in the trenches (between 15 meter and touchline) and 4 in the middle of the pitch. The 2 splits in the trenches are your loosies and hooker with your tighties confined more to the centre of the pitch.

    It is a very effective setup on attack if you play a fast-paced momentum game shifting contact points with the main idea to beat the opponents with pace out wide creating mis-matches (tie opposition loosies up in the middle, have wings mark loosies out wide).

    On defence it also allows you two vital things – you have big loosies smashing smaller wings out wide (isolated) increasing the probability of turn overs and once turned over you only need one phase to get back into your attacking shape which will leave defences vulnerable as they still try to organise themselves.

    It is the type of setup you want to see in teams with speed and skill from 6 to 15 – and also the shape NZ use (Coles, Read, Messam don’t end up in try scoring or assist situations by mistake).

    That type of setup invites opposition teams to try and out-flank you (more space, less defenders) but once they try, there is a mis-match when if they get caught, they are in shit.

  • Comment 193, posted at 09.11.15 12:18:24 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • Sorry, pressed submit too quickly, hope that helps?

  • Comment 194, posted at 09.11.15 12:19:31 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @Morné (Comment 193) : This is why I do not believe we had the right loose forwards at the WC, we had no linking, only bashing.

  • Comment 195, posted at 09.11.15 12:29:37 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Morné (Comment 193) : Makes sense, I figured the split is employed during open play but wasn’t sure which positions go where. Thanks for the detailed explanation. It also explains why you’re looking to employ bigger wingers (JPP, Mjekevu & possibly Esterhuizen) in your post 162. And why the Kiwis prefer the big boys on the wings. I assume it also requires excellent conditioning to be used effectively?

  • Comment 196, posted at 09.11.15 12:30:06 by vanmartin Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    vanmartin
     
  • @Morné (Comment 193) : And I reckon this also further explains why you’d attack the Kiwis with pick-and-drvies though the middle?

  • Comment 197, posted at 09.11.15 12:31:34 by vanmartin Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    vanmartin
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 196) :

    On the mark.

    Skilled wings 90kg’s plus is a great benefit.

    Of course, the perfect solution for any coach is to have real grunt in the tight 5 securing 95% of your set phase ball, and skill from 6 to 15 for that type of setup – pretty much what you see in the AB’s. From 2007 to 2011 they struggled at scrums and line outs, with the Retallick’s, Cole’s, Whitelock’s and the Franks brothers coming through, they have the near perfect mix.

  • Comment 198, posted at 09.11.15 12:35:58 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 195) :

    Playing off 9 as we do, it would not have made much difference.

  • Comment 199, posted at 09.11.15 12:36:30 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @Morné (Comment 193) : I think people forget that Mjekevu played under Rob Du Preez before and Rob rated him high as a SR level player. I am hoping his passion can be ignited so that his potential is delivered.

    Chilli and Cooper could thrive in the wider role. The twins and Coetzee could fit any structure. Phillip and Tera would also be a good fit. Does the centre four require power or mobility, especially for locks? Fringe defence was really bad this season and hopefully does not reappear.

    A class 9 like Rob can just be good for Reinach’s game.

    Skills and mental/ mentor coaching still seems missing from the mix but the total composition so far is already a significant improvement from 2015

  • Comment 200, posted at 09.11.15 12:38:18 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • @Kabouter (Comment 200) : When did Mjekevu play under Rob?

  • Comment 201, posted at 09.11.15 12:40:46 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Ben (Comment 201) : At Rovers

  • Comment 202, posted at 09.11.15 12:42:03 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 202) : Cool, when?

  • Comment 203, posted at 09.11.15 12:44:30 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 197) :

    Exactly.

    AB;s look most vulnerable on defence if you continue to attack within a width space of no more than 35 meters (which is half the width of the field). If you do that you force their outside centre channel and wide forward pods to make decisions to stay or fold. As soon as a mistake comes where a player folds that is not supposed to you flood that side.

    This is where they are bloody clever – Conrad Smith always hangs back so as a flyhalf you reckon there is loads of space on the outside channel. They want you to play a wide-wide game (two passes to the wing) because you take your own loosies out of the game and they overpower your out wide. Force Conrad Smith to make a decision and gaps will appear.

    I have always believed with the ball in hand you should ‘attack’ the adjusting defender (defender on the outside of the primary defender), and by attack I mean force him to make a decision (and not just hang back and use the touchline to isolate you). Teams can mostly recover if the catch-up or primary defender makes a mistake (by scrambling) but if your adjusting defender is found out of place (too wide, too narrow, shooting up out of line what we do very often at the Boks) or making the wrong decisions your whole system can collapse or in the very least, you will create overlaps.

  • Comment 204, posted at 09.11.15 12:45:57 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @Morné (Comment 204) : I think you’re now opening yourself up to an article on basic defensive theory and systems 🙂

  • Comment 205, posted at 09.11.15 12:51:52 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @Ben (Comment 203) : i can tell you the year but it was when Mjekevu was here in Durbs the last time.

  • Comment 206, posted at 09.11.15 12:51:57 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @Morné (Comment 199) : @robdylan (Comment 205) : :mrgreen: 😆

  • Comment 207, posted at 09.11.15 12:57:37 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Morné (Comment 199) : That’s my whole point boet, telling the Boks whole WC depends on the 9 told the AB’s what game t expect, it also told your team to let the thinking be done by Fourie, Yet a Lambie and Pollard together could have had the AB’s hopping in defence. varied play and not just poor kicking and run into other players rugby, simply our players are not allowed to think.

    I do not think for one minute we do not have skilled or thinking players, we have poor coaching because of stubborn coaches.

  • Comment 208, posted at 09.11.15 13:00:24 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 205) : Make him do it Rob lol :mrgreen:

  • Comment 209, posted at 09.11.15 13:02:12 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Kabouter (Comment 200) :

    Indeed he did.

    Power and speed would be my preferred two primary skill sets

  • Comment 210, posted at 09.11.15 13:06:35 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 205) :

    Ha!

    Rugby is a game of chess.

    The days of ‘playing to your own strengths’ are gone – everyone knows what they are because they spend hours analysing it.

    These days you want to manipulate the opposition to apply their strengths only in areas you allow them to.

    Being unpredictable doesn’t mean changing your game strategy, plans or strengths, it means you apply variation to it to force teams to think and make decisions.

    No team currently forces the AB’s to make decisions.

  • Comment 211, posted at 09.11.15 13:19:48 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @Morné (Comment 204) : @Morné (Comment 211) : Okay, so bear with me here. I know you’re very limited in the kinds of comments you can make regarding national coaches but I’m hoping you can give me a hint on whether my thinking is in the right direction.

    Heyneke Meyer is no fool. By all accounts he’s a passionate scholar of the game so it’s probably safe to assume he’s picked up on all the same things regarding the All Blacks that you have. So taking all of that into account, he’s approach must be something along the lines of ‘the simplest game-plan is the most foolproof and safest’. We play off our most trusted decision-maker (Fourie) and we make strides across the gainline (Schalk at first receiver) instead of taking on their loosies out wide. We kick to exit, or to compete at lineout time (Matfield/Lood) or to turn their defenders and create some broken play (where Willie used to be a menace). Why go this way? Could it be as simple as the Kiwis are better conditioned than us and this keeps us in the fight far longer and means a penalty could be the difference between winning and losing.

    There are of course lots of other intricacies involved but at it’s most basic I do get the feeling that Meyer feels we have a better chance limiting the strengths of the All Blacks as opposed to trying to take them on at their own game.

    (Whether this is the best approach is a whole other can of worms and a debate for another day. I’m just trying to get a feel for the thinking)

  • Comment 212, posted at 09.11.15 13:39:53 by vanmartin Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    vanmartin
     
  • @Ben (Comment 201) : Rovers. There was a weekly reality show on Kyknet where the season’s progress was shown. If I remember correctly this was the side that lost in Community Cup final to that Monty DuMont long range penalty after the hooter.

  • Comment 213, posted at 09.11.15 13:47:32 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • @Morné (Comment 211) : Again good point as one clearly sees in the Boks vs AB’s game they beat us at our own strengths, We normally own the Lineouts, we got thumped there by them, we normally the better tactical kicking side, they thumped us there and even kicked more than us.

    Only in the scrums did we have parity, and yes our defence held and thus we stayed in the game.

  • Comment 214, posted at 09.11.15 13:48:09 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 212) : Please desist from this line of thinking; it detracts from the “Meyer is an ass hat” discourse

  • Comment 215, posted at 09.11.15 13:48:17 by Culling Song Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Culling Song
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 215) : :mrgreen:

  • Comment 216, posted at 09.11.15 13:54:42 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • For those thinking James Small might assist in coaching at the Sharks? no chance, he is now the assistant coach of Pirates club in JHB

  • Comment 217, posted at 09.11.15 13:55:36 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 215) : At least we have the losses to Ireland, Aus, Argentina and Japan to fall back on…

    No comments has been made so far about Classsens and Serfontein’s campaign…..

  • Comment 218, posted at 09.11.15 13:59:28 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • @Morné (Comment 210) : Botha and Lewies fits that. In theory so does Ettas but he has only delivered that once in that win over Saders away. Captain Planet, not so much anymore. Kruger actually fits this very nicely and so would Dan Dup…

    Have to admit this strategic assessment embarasses the 2015 coaching crop

  • Comment 219, posted at 09.11.15 14:03:04 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 212) :

    You are right on most accounts. And yes, rugby (even the stuff I posted on top here) is essentially quite simple. Make the least mistakes and you are most likely to win.

    I do think as a rule we over-complicate things in SA Rugby as a whole. To give you an example;

    While launching a recent project at schools (not your traditional rich kind) I said to the guys we want to implement a “High Performance” element to their structures. I found out this in itself is terribly misunderstood. Where most believe HP is the best gym, the best nutrition, the best systems, the best technology and guys with PHD’s in their fields the actual definition of High Performance is: “Doing the simple things 100% correct”.

    When we assess young players’ passing we look at 4 things mainly, grip, loading, balance, follow through. The HP component is to improve the player in each category by 20% in 6 months and 50% in one year. I had one coach ask me but why do we not work on the player’s shoulders, feet, movement in passing, hips, etc. The answer is simple of course, if you are not at a standard of 80% in the four absolute basics in passing you are wasting your time in looking at anything else.

    This to me is what I think we miss a lot.

    We spend 70 of the 90 minutes in practice going through maps, systems, starter moves and who knows what else where the biggest problem with our game is that our players are not of a 85% plus standard in the absolute basics of the game, the simplest of things.

    I can’t remember if it was here or elsewhere I mentioned that the difference between the AB’s and the rest of the world is they are the best at the basics, this, with the fact that they are the best conditioned team in the world (thanks to how the federation works with each franchise ensuring the guys are properly conditioned) is what makes them what they are.

    Go study any AB game in the last 4 years. They have at most 2 starter moves from set phases each with 2 to 3 options.

    Their open play plans are also extremely simple, win the kicking game and don’t take risks in your own half.

    So to come back to your question this is the difference:

    They do the simple things 100% correct from a young age which is why they have these stupid skills
    They are the best conditioned team in world rugby

  • Comment 220, posted at 09.11.15 14:05:08 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @Culling Song (Comment 215) : I’ve still left ample room for interpretation on that particular line of questioning 😀

  • Comment 221, posted at 09.11.15 14:05:27 by vanmartin Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    vanmartin
     
  • @Morné (Comment 220) : Insightful as always. Thanks for taking the time and good luck with all the work you’re doing.

  • Comment 222, posted at 09.11.15 14:10:57 by vanmartin Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    vanmartin
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 221) : Heyneke Meyer is an ass hat, though. :mrgreen:

  • Comment 223, posted at 09.11.15 14:11:14 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 223) : 😆 I just tried explaining this to Brenden Nel, the big HM Apologist.

  • Comment 224, posted at 09.11.15 14:17:34 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 223) : Sun Tzu reckons it’s not a bad idea to get to know your enemy 😉

  • Comment 225, posted at 09.11.15 14:19:37 by vanmartin Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    vanmartin
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 222) :

    Always a pleasure and thanks, I am still learning as I go along also.

  • Comment 226, posted at 09.11.15 14:22:00 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @sharks_lover (Comment 224) : Brenden has his blind spots, just like all the rest of us.

  • Comment 227, posted at 09.11.15 15:12:07 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 225) : Sun Who? 🙂

  • Comment 228, posted at 09.11.15 15:12:24 by robdylan Reply
    Competition Winner Administrator
    robdylan
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 227) : We just do not have massive spots like him, :mrgreen: 😎 He got polka dots lol

  • Comment 229, posted at 09.11.15 15:38:49 by sharks_lover Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld
    sharks_lover
     
  • @robdylan (Comment 228) : :mrgreen:

  • Comment 230, posted at 09.11.15 16:10:46 by vanmartin Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    vanmartin
     
  • @Morné (Comment 204) : Fascinating stuff…

  • Comment 231, posted at 09.11.15 16:22:01 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @vanmartin (Comment 212) : The other day we had a rugby chat at a braai and I said exactly this almost word for word…

  • Comment 232, posted at 09.11.15 16:28:16 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @Morné (Comment 220) : Absolutely this…

  • Comment 233, posted at 09.11.15 16:31:08 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • @Morné (Comment 220) : I had the privilege of doing some primary school coaching a few years ago (before my work life became as busy as it is now). In the first game my boys got thumped. Watching them play that first game I made a decision to work on 5 basic skills to get them to do those basics right. We spent 80% of our time focusing only on those skills. At first the boys said: BORING! Until they started winning games…and they did. In the last game of the season we played the same side that thumped us in the first game…and thumped them by 50 points. Basics are so important. It is frustrating to see a lack of basics in our provincial and national sides…

  • Comment 234, posted at 09.11.15 16:36:28 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • Rob, fantastic article that brought about some very interesting viewpoints.

  • Comment 235, posted at 10.11.15 08:33:26 by Bump Reply

    Bump
     
  • @pastorshark (Comment 234) :

    I have seen some shocking things coached at school level.

  • Comment 236, posted at 10.11.15 08:43:26 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @Morné (Comment 236) : Your thoughts on Inny at 12 in the future? Have you seen him play a lot?

  • Comment 237, posted at 10.11.15 09:33:50 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Ben (Comment 237) : He kind of reminds me of a young Kurtley Beale.

  • Comment 238, posted at 10.11.15 09:35:30 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • More and more Pumas signing for SR 2016. This team will be bloody strong and their national side will improve. The Argie economy is in disarray so all this talk about weak Rand holding less water now. The Boks need to play locally…

  • Comment 239, posted at 10.11.15 09:37:24 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • @Kabouter (Comment 239) : The weak Rand is definitely a major factor. if you think otherwise you are a bit naive im afraid. I have noting against picking the Bok side from only local players. But it will mean missing out on top guys and you cannot blame top players for playing in stronger currency environments.

  • Comment 240, posted at 10.11.15 10:17:33 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @Ben (Comment 237) :

    Only saw a bit of him with the Junior Boks so can’t really comment.

  • Comment 241, posted at 10.11.15 12:19:16 by Morné Reply
    Author
    Morné
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 240) : Something upsetting you as the “naive” comments are flowing thick and fast.

    Yea, the Rand is poor and I have personally experienced both sides. The ABs and Argies are now proving that even with weaker currencies and in Argies case, a completely stuffed economy, most, not all, top players can be kept. You will out on top players but lets also be realistic, very few top players playing outside of SA and especially SR, can be properly judged and get picked more on past reputations. Louw and FdP the anomalies. Steyn x 2, Habana, JPP, Pienaar, Kirchner, Gurthro, Heinke vd Merwe, Wynand Olivier, Jacque Fourie all did not return to the Boks as improved players and mostly regressed backwards. What did the Boks really gain by playing them? No depth was created and local talent was overlooked and form players ignored.

    The Aus approach of a minimum number tests played makes sense as your true superstars can still be chosen.

    The mere fact that the Argies can get the vast majority of their RWC squad to leave European contracts or offers to return home, proves that there is still a value to playing for your country. I maintain that the argument for picking so many overseas based players does not hold water anymore. Who goes and watches and analyses these guys to truely assess their form or is just past personal preference? Unless these kind of stats get shown to justify overseas selections fornthe last four years, I can only go with the inference that personal preference and past achievements where the foundation of these selections.

  • Comment 242, posted at 10.11.15 12:45:39 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • @Kabouter (Comment 242) : Yes some comments get to me as this used to be an intelligent blog not rash comments like rugby365 and keo etc. Not saying your comments are always that, just you asked so ya. The value of the Rand def plays a massive part, there is no denying that. Picking the form players is another debate (overseas is not always better, but sometimes it is.) The Arg economy may not be the best but i wonder just how much those guys are being paid to play there…giving up Euros for pennies i cannot believe. There is a factor that we cannot discuss here that also has a major bearing into why players leave for the Euro which doesnt affect any other nation.

  • Comment 243, posted at 10.11.15 13:01:27 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 243) : Last time I checked the Argie inflation rate was over 20% so I can only think that the available funds are used to achieve the best ROI.

    Agree that some young talent are definitely lost due to the other considerations but for this RWC Reinach is the only real quantifiable example. Kriel would never been picked.

    Under White and Div there were limitations on overseas players but HM had free reign. Our results SR and Bok level has definitely gotten worse as more players leave the shores. I am pretty confident the Argie results will go the other way over the next four years. Ours, I am not so sure anymore. Guys like Paul Willemse, Jacques Du Plessis, Kitshoff, Goosen needed to play in SA if we wanted our teams to be the best and the Boks to perform. Also for their own development playing against your peers constantly improves your skilks and form the best, a lot of bench time does not. Look at Lambie as example of wastage on a bench. I cannot help but think if some of these guys would not have stayed if they knew they could not play for the Boks if they took up foreign contracts as none of them left due to other considerations. Of course for some people the cash will be too much of a factor and the guys who feel that they are better off trying to qualify for another country you cannot keep. Strauss, Spedding and CJ Stander are examples of those cases.

    No Springbok coach should survive losing to Argentina, Japan, Ireland and Wales in the same 12 months. I also remember HM saying in his first press conference that he wants to win every game and not just be judged on the RWC. What saddens me is that his intellect and past skill has not been represented in the last four years. Unless the root causes of this has been resolved I cannot agree to an extention. I stongly feel that his tenure has been a failure if you compare his results vs original objectives and personal capability. He could and should have delivered so much more and in that sense he has been for me the biggest disappointment as a modern Springbok coach. Purely based on capabilities & potential vs results.

  • Comment 244, posted at 10.11.15 13:44:11 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • @Kabouter (Comment 244) : Spot on!

  • Comment 245, posted at 10.11.15 13:47:17 by Ben Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Author
    Ben
     
  • @Kabouter (Comment 244) : In terms of only picking local players for the Boks, as i said i have no problem with that. Yes we may miss out on some good players and it might persuade the odd 1 or 2 to stay but i cant see it having a significant effect on the number of guys leaving. Yes representing the Boks is great, but so too is knowing that your family will be well looked after from the money you earn abroad. And throw in the political interference in this country and guys pick the easy option abroad. In terms of the Bok coach going forward, fair enough replace him…hopefully not with a political appointment as will be the pressure. Thinking of getting a foreigner as head coach is laughable. Thats why i said best bet if Meyer with 2 foreign assistants. In terms of the Bok coach not realising potential…well the super rugby results over the last 4yrs have shown exactly that potential.

  • Comment 246, posted at 10.11.15 13:56:48 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 246) : Sure, a foreign coach will be an almost impossible sell, based on how disgraceful Eddie Jones was handled.

    As stated earlier, my preferred model is the Aus one where lets say 50 caps is the mark for being chosen from overseas. The guys just chasing money I dont think should be even considered. Percy, Terblanche and Louw are for me the guys who actually came back better players and more professional. F Steyn says all the right things but I think the jury is still out on his true intentions.

    I think our biggest point of difference is that you use the last four years of SR as the base of the excuse of Boks performances. Having briefly scanned across the last four years, last year was the only time the Bok squad had the majority players from the local team that went the furthest in the comp, if you exclude overseas based players. The constant gripe was that form players were overlooked and as chief onto himself, HM cannot blame SR performances for his choices. Morne Steyn a perfect example where his SR form was shocking, foreign form shocking but he started for the Boks as HM believed he could coach him right. Cheika is another example of how much the coach can do within a year, both at Tahs and then repeat it the Aussies. Based on his pattern of choices over his tenure, I have not seen anything that provides confidence that even a SA SR title would have changed any choices in style or players.

    HM also has no record at Bulls or Boks of supporting and progressing transformation so I am not confident he will ease that pressure. 12 months ago I still supported HM getting an extention based on his personal capability, skills and being forced to break ties with and loyalty to his past students after the RWC but the 2015 HM is a shadow if his former intellectual beacon. Adding foreign assistants helping? Only if his own dictotorship of his latter tenure is removed. Compare how Johan van Graan influenced the game in first two seasons vs last two seasons as an example of warped reality.

    Anyway, I apologise if you think my posts are frivolous but I only post relating the passion I have.

  • Comment 247, posted at 10.11.15 14:23:16 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • @Kabouter (Comment 247) : No you def raise good arguments logically. I think we should either allow foreign based players or keep it local entirely. The opinion is that Super rugby is the superior comp hence we should then only pick players that play in that comp, and im happy with that. I think the poor super rugby record of the locals together with faith in certain experienced players probably accounted for his team selections. I said it a while ago that with these ‘favoured and trusted’ players now moving on i am interested to see how he will treat the new group. I am also hoping that the coaching at the likes of the Lions, Bulls and WP (not sure on Sharks and Cheetahs yet) will aide in supplying better quality players to the Boks in terms of fitness and skills. That would greatly assist the Bok coach whoever it is. The pressure on a Bok coach is immense, just look at the toll it took of Meyer if compare the 2011 version to the 2015. Same can be said for previous coaches. I just think some form of continuity in terms of the coaching staff may help with that pressure. So do i believe Meyer is the best option going forward, no- but im afraid of who may be pushed in instead of him.

  • Comment 248, posted at 10.11.15 14:43:30 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 248) : Although in pure score, we might have been one kick away from the final, we were completely bossed and being at the game, I never had the feeling we were going to pull it through. The performance gap was huge. The Bok coach position will always be the toughest of the big nations. Unfortunately since JW the entire setup has severely gone backwards. JW could at least fill the void with EJ.
    Div and HM’s support staff are inferior, loyal but inferior. Who ever is next, needs to address this trend.
    Same goes for Sharks in this regard.
    Raw talent and quality of player pool wise, we are not the nr 3 nation in the world though. Conditioning is an issue and the levels of a lot of our top players are not acceptable. At least this is one area where RdP takes no nonsense based on past coaching jobs.

  • Comment 249, posted at 10.11.15 18:10:35 by Kabouter Reply

    Kabouter
     
  • @Kabouter (Comment 249) : ja sad to say but on the day the Bokke did not deserve to win the game. As for conditioning I really hope RdP can get it sorted at the Sharks as it will solve a lot of problems.

  • Comment 250, posted at 11.11.15 07:30:46 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @Kabouter (Comment 249) : Taking your JW example…i think even he was drowning before the appointment of Eddie Jones…do you remember his results and performaces before that appointment? Sa coaches in general i believe are good motivators but not the best at teaching technical skills. They may have the technical knowledge some not all) but its imparting that knowledge that we seem to struggle with. So hence my suggestion for a local head coach (to prevent political mayhem) but then to appoint good technical foreign guys as assistants that do the on field training. These foreign guys can then outside of the Bok camps get involved with the various unions so that we slowly start to get onto the same page. However, if we think these assistants will be big name coaches we are dreaming. Hence i put forward a guy like Leon Macdonald who is doing well in the ITM cup. And guys similar to that. I also agree with your last point..>SA players in general are lazy. For years they have believed and been told that they will succeed based on their big size etc. Well last i checked we got physically dominated in the JWC by the likes of Eng and NZ and even France to an extent. And then e have to rely on our basic skills which are lacking when we are tired.

  • Comment 251, posted at 11.11.15 08:08:42 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @JD (Comment 250) : I wont go into why the Boks gameplan has the best chance of upsetting NZ. In terms of conditioning at the Sharks i truly hope they can improve it as it will impact on all areas of play. I know RDP is big into fitness and i even see him in the gym training hard. The tricky thing with conditioning is that its a 2 way thing..there has to be buy in from the players as well.

  • Comment 252, posted at 11.11.15 08:10:34 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 251) : For me, physical domination is not just about being big and strong. Mostly its about motivation. I think the Japan game we had absolutely none of that. We went into that game thinking about how the All Blacks killed Japan in 1995 WC, and expected to do the same, I wont lie I also thought we would.

  • Comment 253, posted at 11.11.15 08:20:51 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 253) : Motivation was def lacking in the Japan game. We also tried to score a hundred tries against them and speed the game up. Which with the Boks conditioning resulted in a problem. If Boks had played the same way as they did against Samoa and NZ against Japan we would have won by 15-20 points probably. Similar thing in the Arg game for 3/4. We played the first 15-20min at a high tempo spreading the ball (and yes it worked nicely) but then we were stuffed and there was still 60min left that the Boks had to try and grind their way through. People often moan bout the “Bulls rugby” and i cant say i fully agree with the approach but what i cant deny is how effective it is when played properly. When the Bulls were ontop playing that way they were very very fit. They took their time at the start of the game and slowly built up forward dominance and wore down the opposition so that in the last 20-30min they could spread the ball as opposition forwards couldnt cover the space and they scored a lot of tries. And sorry for those that want to see a 7s approach from the Boks but that old ‘Bulls rugby’ is how the boks should play until there is evidence that we can win games consistently throwing the ball around at a local level.

  • Comment 254, posted at 11.11.15 08:30:31 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 254) : Totally agree, and yes everyone hated the bulls way but on the end of the day, that way won them 3 Super titles, and too add to it, their flyhalfs were point machines and they were always the top try scorers for those seasons. That said, Meyer had his chance, he failed due to his own ignorance. I for one stood by him from the start, but sorry to say he and his cronies need to go.

  • Comment 255, posted at 11.11.15 08:40:14 by Uli Boelie Reply
    Valued Sharksworld Supporter
    Uli Boelie
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 254) : if you check the All Blacks you will see that is exactly what they do to opposition. Most games after 60min it is still close but then the final score they win by 20 points.

  • Comment 256, posted at 11.11.15 08:50:50 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @Uli Boelie (Comment 255) : My biggest issue with Meyer is that he bowed to public pressure and tried to play a more ‘running’ game. He should have refined his tried and tested game plan with the better player she had at his disposal with the Boks. By the time he eventually decided to return to his game plan it wasnt well drilled and co-ordinated. So yeh fair enough get someone new in…BUT as soon as Meyer goes there will be massive pressure for a political appointment- thats a real concern even if cant be discussed here. So best bet if he goes is that Alistair Coetzee gets appointed to appease the masses. But now he has had many detractors whilst at WP. So how will he be any different for the Boks…only through the intelligent appointment of foreign assistants. So why do i want Meyer to stay…continuity and to prevent ‘that other appointment’ and then i hope with new assistants we will see an improvement with the new breed of Boks.

  • Comment 257, posted at 11.11.15 08:51:13 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @JD (Comment 256) : That is why they include guys like Barratt, Fekeitoa, SBW, and mobile loosies on the bench so that they can exploit those last 20-30min after they have subdued the opposition. But Bok fans seem to want us to spread the ball from minute 1 and score tries.

  • Comment 258, posted at 11.11.15 08:53:28 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • @SheldonK (Comment 252) : ja chance can be a problem as most humans don’t like to chance their habits and ways. If I did it for 3 years and got by why do I need to chance?
    However I believe if players are consulted and a plan for the future is given to them most quality players will buy into it as in the end it will benefit them the most! If they’re fit and in form they will play better and out perform opposition, this will increase their chances for Bok selection and will also increase their future value should they negotiate a new contract with the Sharks or other teams.
    For me it’s a win-win situation!!!

  • Comment 259, posted at 11.11.15 08:56:42 by JD Reply
    Friend of SharksworldCompetition Winner Administrator
    JD
     
  • @JD (Comment 259) : I fully agree with your thinking. And it seems that yes the Sharks Bok players such as Reinach, Lambie, Coetzee do buy into that conditioning. It just seems as though the next tier or 2 down dont fully apply themselves. If you chat to guys from around the country they will tell you that Sharks players have massive talent but are lazy. So kicking that lazy habit will be RDP’s chief concern as if he can change that there really is massive potential here

  • Comment 260, posted at 11.11.15 09:14:27 by SheldonK Reply

    SheldonK
     
  • Reinach; Lambie; Mvovo; Esterhuizen; Sithole; Pieterson; le Roux.

    Last year I saw Jordaan have the best run of his career – he made nearly 50m ………..across field.

    The alternative is to adopt the Meyer strategy and play Coetzee at flyhalf.

  • Comment 261, posted at 11.11.15 10:55:28 by charlieharvey Reply

    charlieharvey
     
  • @charlieharvey (Comment 261) : Thanks but no thanks to that last bit…

  • Comment 262, posted at 11.11.15 11:02:21 by pastorshark Reply
    Friend of Sharksworld Administrator
    pastorshark
     
  • The comment of mine about Marcell Coetzee was a tongue in cheek bit of sarcasm.
    What frustrates me is the propensity to allow players like the Kriel twins and Ruan Combrinck to leave the province of their schooling.
    Yes I know they went to be further educated elsewhere, but that just compounds our poverty – we once had a very good University team. In fact we once had two good varsity teams. Who is the person responsible for “talent-keeping” forget the talent scouting – all we seemed able to do was to bring fat outoppies over from Sarries.

  • Comment 263, posted at 13.11.15 11:11:57 by charlieharvey Reply

    charlieharvey
     

Add Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.